Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

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CaplinCaplin
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 01:44

Edit: Item 3 seems to be working properly, though I had trouble actually deploying a satellite at the requested location. I was directed to what seemed to be the proper place though. I also had occasion to try destroying mines, which worked the second time around, after one game-over as you warned might happen. :)

Hi there,

I just wanted to say thank you for this update. It's excellent as always, and I was able to complete my first transport mission, which went quite well, and successfully hire crew. I do have a few issues I wondered about, if I might…
  1. After I finished the transport mission, I noticed that all the future NPCs I spoke with listed the name of the NPC I'd transported, who presumably no longer exists. I am unsure if their skills were entirely accurate, but the dialog at least worked as I expected.
  2. I tried to autopilot to Grand Exchange I from somewhere and ended up taking a giant loop around, which seemed to start and end in Argon prime. I ended up just cancelling autopilot after two or three such loops, and choosing to head somewhere else instead.
  3. I tried to take a "Drop," mission to deploy a satellite somewhere, but the mission targeting logic didn't seem to recognize where I needed to go. Perhaps this type needs special handling.
I really appreciate your continued work on this. I know it's a super niche mod, but I'm already deriving a lot of enjoyment from the game, and it's is entirely responsible for that.

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 08:08

CaplinCaplin wrote:
Wed, 1. Sep 21, 01:44
Edit: Item 3 seems to be working properly, though I had trouble actually deploying a satellite at the requested location. I was directed to what seemed to be the proper place though. I also had occasion to try destroying mines, which worked the second time around, after one game-over as you warned might happen. :)
yeah, some satellite deployment missions are difficult normally - let alone for you guys. e.g. satellite coverage missions require that you blanket a wide area of satellites. and estimating how far apart to put your satellites is and where gaps exist make for a difficult mission to complete. i have a mod called Waypoint Fields for Deployment (https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/585) that adds waypoints for the player to follow and drop satellites at. But that mod is not very accessible. I'll need to add accessibility to that mod.

I suggest that you take satellite missions that do not cover area - but require only a set number of satellite drops. With these satellite drop missions, you can drop the required number of satellites anywhere in the mission area. I'm pretty sure that the autopilot to these mission areas will fly the ship to the middle of it. I'll check later.
[*] After I finished the transport mission, I noticed that all the future NPCs I spoke with listed the name of the NPC I'd transported, who presumably no longer exists. I am unsure if their skills were entirely accurate, but the dialog at least worked as I expected.
Oh, I'll check that. Was the transport mission a taxi mission and not a "deliver engineer/manager/pilot/marine" mission?
[*] I tried to autopilot to Grand Exchange I from somewhere and ended up taking a giant loop around, which seemed to start and end in Argon prime. I ended up just cancelling autopilot after two or three such loops, and choosing to head somewhere else instead.
Unfortunately, that happens in the base game also. My mod sets the "middle" of the sector as the autopilot target. But as in the base game, sometimes the autopilot gets stuck in the main superhighway that circles through the major sectors.

I suggest that once you hear your ship computer announce your sector destination, stop engines with the backspace. I recommend that you remap the stop engines key to the Alt key. Stopping engines will also take you out of the superhighway or disengage travel mode and turn off the autopilot.

I experienced this a lot in the early days of my X4 gaming - when I wanted to check out as much as I can. I hardly experience this now likely because my gameplay is more concentrated in building up my relations with one faction.





Which leads me to my question: Does the screen reader parse the Player Information screen properly?
Also, can you step me through how you use the screen reader? I think I asked this before, but I can't remember if that was on reddit or on this forum.
I.e. list down steps on how turn orn the screen reader on Windows 10, and how you trigger it to read the game's screen.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 09:47

kuertee wrote:
Wed, 1. Sep 21, 08:08

Which leads me to my question: Does the screen reader parse the Player Information screen properly?
Also, can you step me through how you use the screen reader? I think I asked this before, but I can't remember if that was on reddit or on this forum.
I.e. list down steps on how turn orn the screen reader on Windows 10, and how you trigger it to read the game's screen.
Going to be honest here -- as your mod and work begins to become excellent in each update, my desperation to have our screen reader directly interfaced with the game grows as well lol. I can only hope that x4 developers and executives are watching the topic as well, to perhaps find a solution for us. A few of my friends are asking me about the progress that's going on here and i'm suggesting them to hold on a bit longer so we can make sure the game is in a playable state and not frustrating to work with.

the player information window -- and the ship information and basically anything that is a table in the game, or multi windowed is a little bit hard to read for us because of the way the OCR detects the text and then lays it out in a disorganized way.
Just an example of how it could be like this, (not from the game.
Actual text:
ship1, 15000, 500, select, delete
ship2, 20000, 1000, select, delete
ocr result:
ship1
ship2
15000
20000
select
500
1000
delete
select
delete
And as the screen becomes more complex, the OCR result can get more disorganized as well, and a bit tedious to comprehend.
How to download and use the screen reader that we use in the next post :)
edit: Once i go home i'll paste an OCR result of the player information screen

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 10:17

Here's how to download the screen reader we use and use it. i'll try to write a short post.
download: https://www.nvaccess.org/download/
Once you have the exe file, you can either run it as a portable app or install it on your computer. Once the app is launched, it might show you a little window asking you if you want to change your keyboard layout, or have the app launched at logon screen or when windows start. you can ignore all of that and press OK.
When the app is running it's down in the notification area and the screen reader is running in the background. y'll notice that when you move your mouse over windows elements it will read the items below it.
Let's say there are three modes of working with the computer with the screen reader.
1. application mode. You can use your arrow keys and basically the windows commands and you'll hear the reader read the elements for you as they will get focused. the primary keys are the arrow keys, tab+shift+Tab keys, space and enter. e.g. you can press windows+m, use arrow keys to navigate the desktop, enter to activate one of the icons. This is the mode that we hope could be possible to play x4 on.
2. Browse mode, (irrelivant to our case) but this is used on browsers and web apps and frames such as discord. the screen reader creates a cursor and as you use the arrow keys it will scroll through links and headings and other web elements. and there are shortcuts to jump around these elements.
3. advanced mode. we use this mode to treat x4 as a single object in the screen, and then perform an OCR on it and after it gives us the OCR results, we use the screen reader functions to put the mouse on where it finds the texts extracted from the screen.
When the game is open, you'll see that when using the keyboard the reader is not able to read the items. find a simple screen with text and perform these commands.
(the insert key is the screen reader modifier by the way. for example, if you hold the insert key+f12, you'll hear the time.
(I also do appoligize if this is hard! Unfortunately it's the way we interact with x4 screens and we have to do it every time there's a new text on the screen in the game)
So once the game is open on a simple screen:
1. make sure numpad is off so it does not input numbers as you press them. then, insert+numpad 1 -- switches the advanced mode to object review. you can make sure it is in object view by pressing insert+numpad 7, (switches to screen review) and then back to object view by pressing insert+numpad 1, once this mode is selected, you don't need to do this again in your next OCR attempts.
2. press insert+r -- screen reader begins scanning the screen and performs OCR. you'll hear, "recognizing... result document"
3. Now there's a hidden interface open and your keyboard focus is inside it. use numpad 7 and 9 to read the previous/next line, 4 and 6 for words, and 1 and 3 for letter navigation.
4. Once you find the text you're interested to interact with, make sure your focus on it by just hearing the text as you focus on it.
5. press insert+numpad slash -- this will drop your mouse pointer on top of the UI element the screen reader has found the text from.
6. press numpad slash to emulate a mouse click or juse use your left mouse button to click.
7. use the escape key to exit the OCR results window, otherwise your left and arrow keys, enter button, the numpads won't work in the game, as they're being captured to browse the ocr result.

I just hope that you do have a keyboard with a numpad -- otherwise Caplin might have to help with the alternate keys for keyboards that don't have one.
You can exit the screen reader by openning its menu from the notification area or pressing insert+n to open the menu and choosing exit. let me know if you had questions.
edit: you can use the command control+insert+up and down arrow keys to adjust the TTS speed rate
edit2: when NVDA is running and your numpad is turned off (as in, it is on page up/down/home/end mode) your entire numpad belongs to NVDA! for advanced navigation. so it will steal and capture them, so you can't use it to press home or end, for example
edit3: some texts in the game are skipped by the OCR, i'm not sure why. for example when the mission window is open, or when trading, some small texts gets skipped. maybe because there's a shadow on them, or something like that.

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 12:52

Thank you.
I have experience with JAWS and Windows Eyes. But that was many years ago. I was a developer with a computer-based training company. And all our compliance training courses needed to be accessible.
I'll try NV Access tonight.

EDIT:
A quick question: do you think NV Access can read an external file as you play X4?
Spoiler
Show
If so, *I think* I can send text to a file.
E.g. when the Navigation Computer opens, I can send the non-interactable text like the NPC skills stat to the text file.
Then if you use the keyboard to move through the interactable elements of the Navigation Computer (e.g. buttons), I can send that to the text file.
Do you think NV Access can detect changes in that text file and read it without you having to leave X4?
EDIT2: Nevermind my previous edit.
I think NV Access's Insert-7 and Insert-9 are sufficient in navigating through the screen.
Well, I think so, anyway.
We just need to make sure that the screens ARE navigable by NV Access.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

CaplinCaplin
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 13:59

Yeah, it's probably best to just make sure the screens are as good as they can be with OCR, which judging from my experience so far is pretty good. External files would work but also require add-ons which would need to be written in Python, if we wanted them read automatically. Back when I was trying to mod x3 I did output some things to files which I could read manually, and that did work reasonably well, but x4seems better with OCR anyway, not to mention more modifiable.
Re: your question about the mission and NPC names, it was definitely a taxi (fast flight) mission. I noticed the issue several times now, it seems to repro reliably. Just take and fulfill a taxi mission and then talk to other NPCS on station or whatever.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 15:28

May I ask what you guys mean by external files?
Like an alternative interface? Wouldn't that require massive amounts of work?
Or just a notepad file that we could read information on.
edit: oh i just re read the posts and realize you did mean something like a notepad. It would have helped with better readability but would add an extra step to what we do I guess,

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 17:55

how do you guys read the load game screen?
NV Access only reads the time of the saved game and not the name of the saved game.
i suppose you guys wouldn't have known that the load game screen contains more info than the file's timestamp :)
(unless i'm mistaken, of course.)
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 17:58

kuertee wrote:
Wed, 1. Sep 21, 17:55
how do you guys read the load game screen?
NV Access only reads the time of the saved game and not the name of the saved game.
i suppose you guys wouldn't have known that the load game screen contains more info than the file's timestamp :)
(unless i'm mistaken, of course.)

Yeah you're correct. some texts are just skipped with the OCR in the game. that's one of them. What i'll do is try to have only one or two save files so it's easier to load them
edit: BTW, when you have the OCR result open, you can do control+a, control+c, and paste it in a notepad or anywhere you'd like to see the result visually

CaplinCaplin
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Wed, 1. Sep 21, 19:28

kuertee wrote:
Wed, 1. Sep 21, 17:55
how do you guys read the load game screen?
NV Access only reads the time of the saved game and not the name of the saved game.
i suppose you guys wouldn't have known that the load game screen contains more info than the file's timestamp :)
(unless i'm mistaken, of course.)
I just make liberal use of "continue," and "quicksave," and try not to have too many save games, as Oasis1701 suggests. It's definitely annoying, but at least we can reliably click on what we need to most of the time. :)

CaplinCaplin
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 05:46

Just a quick update on how things are going. :) I've managed to raise around 300K credits doing a mix of transport, repair, and mine destruction missions. THey've all worked as expected, including the ridiculous transport mission in which I had to chase down a ship which was apparently moving faster than I could. I also was able to successfully spacewalk to target my ship with the repair laser, when was nearly destroyed by one of those mines.

All in all, this seems like a good start. I haven't tried combat, mining, or intelligence missions yet, but am excited to see how things progress. I'm not in a ship with much cargo space, so suspect delivery or build missions are out of the question until I can buy a bigger ship and possibly get some mod support for required screens. Combat is probably going to be tough to do on my own, but hopefully the one-star chump I hired can help with that.

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 07:17

ahhh! that's good news.

I investigated the incorrect NPC display after taking a transport mission bug.
And, yes, it is a bug. But its not game-breaking nor is it a show-stopper.
The NPC display at the top may be incorrect, but the NPC that you speak to when you select the "Talk To" command is always the correct NPC.
I'll release a quick fix later.

The process for getting the NPC to take control of your ship so that they can fight for you is a bit "janky":
When you hear that your ship is taking damage,
1. Save your game.
2. Get up from the controls (Shift-D or Ctrl-D, I can't remember) and let the NPC control your ship. He'll fight for you.
3. When the fight is over, retaking control is the difficult part.
4. Exit to spacewalk then re-enter the ship.

But I've thought about protecting the ship from combat.
In the next update, not the quick-fix that I'll release later, but in the next update:
  1. I'll prevent the Game Over screen by making the ship invulnerable.
    I'll also disable the base game's auto-eject feature.
    Just FYI: With that feature, you'll be saved from the explosion when the ship ejects you out to your spacesuit but you will find it difficult to get back into the game.
    I.e. navigate to the nearest station, buy a new ship (for now, anyway), etc.
  2. As a gameplay mechanic (and as a give-and-take for having an invulnerable ship), I'll teleport the ship to the last station you docked at.
    The ship will have low health - which will be a small deterrent against exploiting this feature.
    Docking at stations will have this other benefit.
    Spoiler
    Show
    Just FYI: I've not thought that dying then reloading a saved game is a sufficient penalty to dying in games for a very long time.
    I think reloading a game is not a penalty whatsoever - it's just an annoyance.
    I have mods that remove that feature in 3 games.
    Specifically, in X4, my mod Alternatives To Death (https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/551) saves you from death - preventing the Game Over screen, but offers alternatives to death and reload:
    E.g. respawn as a clone (with an inheritance minigame), respawn as a distant relation (with the same inheritance minigame), teleported to safety by an employee, assimilation by the faction that killed you, etc.
    But you can still lose your ship in that mod.
    For Accessibility Features, I'll make the ship you are in invulnerable.
  3. I'll add the "give controls to the NPC pilot" and "retake controls" functions to the Navigation Computer.
    By the way, you can train your NPC pilots easily by giving them training seminars.
    These can be bought from NPCs at Traders Corners at stations.
    I visit these NPCs every time I land at stations in my game.
I'm also *hoping* to get my previous plans in the next update:
1. the purchasing of ships
2. the purchasing of plots / establishing a station

But I'm dividing my time between this and my other mod (Galactic Councils), so I can't promise all the features.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 14:56

Hi there
Thank you, these are very exciting features, I'll be home today so i can fire up the game and play, I was planning to use the functions that you've added to get credits, and then purchase a miner ship and ask it to auto mine for me.
Is purchasing ships inaccessible in your opinion so that you're considering to make it accessible with your mod? I've not seen the interface myself

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 15:19

had another question, can anyone describe how to clear, or change a hotkey in the game with keyboard only?
What keys do i need to press after focusing on the control that i'd like to add or clear the hotkey from.

CBJ
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CBJ » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 15:23

The Delete key removes the binding.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 15:33

thank you CBJ; Is the mouse required to change/add them?

CBJ
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CBJ » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 15:35

No. You should be able to do it entirely with the keyboard, assuming it's keyboard keys you're trying to bind. :)

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 19:02

kuertee the new nav computer is very awesome. i've done two missions so far, destroy enemy traffic and repair leaks.
My third mission however had some sort of issue, i don't know if it's the mod's bug or the game
IT's a fast flight transport mission, i got it from a signal leak. when I accepted it, my mission target is set to a large ship maintenance bay. I can't dock with it, or fly inside is using the spacesuit, so I'm not sure where this npc is hiding. i tried the equipment dock, the nearest station to the bay, but she wasn't there as well.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 20:38

Some more feedback:
Do you think you could bring back the "turn to face object" in the interaction menu?

With it being gone, now it's very hard to turn towards the asteroid to shoot at it, or turn towards any target to fire at them.
edit: by targets i mean the ones that are small like asteroids, or the ones we can cycle through with the targetting system.

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Thu, 2. Sep 21, 23:21

I've updated the mod. I've not been able to test the protection from destruction feature because my other mod, Alternatives To Death, was active. And it ran through its death process - preventing Accessibility Features from running its protection from destruction code. So let me know your experiences with it.

Accessibility features (https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/748)
by kuertee

Updates:
========
v1.0.7, 3 Sep 2021:
- New feature: Let your AI pilot take the ship's controls. Take the ship's controls from your AI pilot.
- New feature: Your AI pilot will obey your autopilot, dock and undock commands.
- New feature: You can order your AI pilot to attack any objects in space.
- New feature: Your current ship is protected from destruction. If it's hull is damaged to 1%, it will be teleported (i.e. respawned) at the last station it docked.
- New feature: The NPC's faction allegiance and title and/or occupation are now listed with their name.
- New feature: The faction owner of the sector is now listed.
- New feature: Object hull percentage is listed.
- Returned feature: Target And Turn To Face X on the Interact Menu.
- Bug-fix: The autopilot to sectors now send you to the nearest friendly station in the sector's center. This prevents the ship from getting stuck on superhighways.
- Bug-fix: The correct NPC data is now shown when you talk to an NPC.




oasis1701 wrote:
Thu, 2. Sep 21, 19:02
...IT's a fast flight transport mission, i got it from a signal leak. when I accepted it, my mission target is set to a large ship maintenance bay. I can't dock with it, or fly inside is using the spacesuit, so I'm not sure where this npc is hiding. i tried the equipment dock, the nearest station to the bay, but she wasn't there as well....
Its easy to lose the actual mission target because setting any object as the autopilot target will set that as the mission target.

BUT the objects listed in the Mission Targets group in the Points Of Interests List are always the actual mission targets. When navigating the galaxy for mission completions, always use the objects in this list.

To get the mission targets list, re-activate the mission from the Ongoing Missions list.

EDIT: also, your docking target may not have the correct docking bay size for your ship. It's best to always use a small-sized ship for taxi missions. Transferring the passenger between ships is a bit problematic. I don't know if Egosoft has allowed that. In older versions of the game, it was impossible to transfer passengers.

EDIT 2: Or take taxi missions only to other stations.

EDIT 3: I've re-read your previous post properly and realise that you've not even spoken to the passenger yet. Reactivate the mission. And the NPC will be listed in the Points Of Interests > Mission Targets list. Talk to them, select your ship, then wait for them to board your ship. They'll let you know when this happens. You can then board your ship and taxi them to their destination.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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