Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

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kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by kuertee » Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:18

CaplinCaplin wrote:
Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:01
...Firstly, might it be possible to have the two modes on separate screens, that is, tabbed UI of some sort? The OCR flattens the list, so the two columns become one long one. I envision us primarily using this by routing the mouse to specific items, rather than arrow keys, just because if we use arrows it's harder to tell which item we're highlighting. ... SEcond, maybe you could close the UI after selecting a gate or other object and choosing what to do with it? I noticed it stayed open, which was slightly confusing. I imagine it might be more so in the case of gates if you're still seeing stuff from a sector you're no longer in.
oasis1701 wrote:
Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:05
By the way, the UI works now, thank you so much, is it possible to by some easy logic, these two columns become two different screens like my friend mentioned?
nice, that the custom menu works!

i can continue adding to the list (e.g. when in radar range: mission offers attached to stations, when within 10ks: signal leaks list, etc.)
and, yes, i can put tabs at the top instead of presenting the 2 lists at the same time.
and i'll auto-close the menu after selecting a command. i kept it up open to allow continual browsing while auto-piloting. but that can also be achieved by simply re-opening the menu.

also, thanks for the ocr output. it'll help me re-layout the table so that it makes sense when the ocr reads it out.
it's weird that the list started with the "Points of Interest" title but then read the contents of the "Known Locations" first.
i'll probably just put the distance immediately after the name - instead of separating it into the second column.
also, the tabbed UI will make the ocr read only one list at a time.

but ... i might not get this "fixed" version out until tomorrow or the day after.
and i won't be able to release the version with more actions (mission offers, signal leak lists, etc.) until a few days after that.
sorry to delay your expeditions.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:29

kuertee wrote:
Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:18

nice, that the custom menu works!

i can continue adding to the list (e.g. when in radar range: mission offers attached to stations, when within 10ks: signal leaks list, etc.)
and, yes, i can put tabs at the top instead of presenting the 2 lists at the same time.
and i'll auto-close the menu after selecting a command. i kept it up open to allow continual browsing while auto-piloting. but that can also be achieved by simply re-opening the menu.

also, thanks for the ocr output. it'll help me re-layout the table so that it makes sense when the ocr reads it out.
it's weird that the list started with the "Points of Interest" title but then read the contents of the "Known Locations" first.
i'll probably just put the distance immediately after the name - instead of separating it into the second column.
also, the tabbed UI will make the ocr read only one list at a time.

but ... i might not get this "fixed" version out until tomorrow or the day after.
and i won't be able to release the version with more actions (mission offers, signal leak lists, etc.) until a few days after that.
sorry to delay your expeditions.

Thank you so much for helping us with this mod, IT allows us to explore x4's world!
It is quite odd that the windows 10 OCR engine (that our screen reader uses for OCR features) behaves like this. , quite glad to know that there can be a way to make it read better.
Thanks once again.
edit: Is it possible to change the format of the game's text, or make them larger or have a contrast to the background for the OCR to be able to read it better? i think it reads almost to 90% accuracy, though.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:36

kuertee wrote:
Sat, 31. Jul 21, 21:18
but ... i might not get this "fixed" version out until tomorrow or the day after.
and i won't be able to release the version with more actions (mission offers, signal leak lists, etc.) until a few days after that.
sorry to delay your expeditions.
HEy,

Thanks so much for the work on this. I totally understand the delay, take your time. I'm just ecxited to have access to a game like this at all. It wasn't possible until recently.

Re: OCR, it's super frustrating. There are other alternative systems which might give better output of data in columns, but they aren't as straight-forward to use. I haven't tried them much beyond quick sampling, though I might have to at some point for my sanity if nothing else.

I truly appreciate the mod and very much look forward to the future.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Sat, 31. Jul 21, 22:20

Had a question about crystals, can they be found by the targeting system? or they have to be found manually and be shot at.

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by kuertee » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 09:34

yes, x4's targeting system is quite granular.
i can target crystals specifically.

i'll be adding more tabs to the list.
one of them would be for mining (e.g. asteroid regions, mineable asteroids, etc.)

you may want to test my other mod, Loot Mining (https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations ... id=8762008)
that mod does 2 things after the asteroid breaks up (after you shoot it enough times) into mineable minerals and loot:
(1) dropped mineable items are added as mission targets which your auto-pilot can fly to one at a time
and
(2) the next mineable asteroid is targeted. once you finish collecting the mineable asteroids, you can set this with the Set Guidance To Object to make it your auto-pilot target.

just to clarify, there are several targeting systems in the game:
first system: mission targets: these can be multiple objects. and your auto-pilot will fly to these one at a time.
and second system: weapon target: you can only have one of these. and your weapons track these.
there's a passive third system which tags objects as detected quietly. this third system is used for scanning station modules - which require you to navigate around the station, so don't worry about this third system.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 14:27

Thank you! do you think we need to connect a controller to the game to be able to use the aim assist feature? Would we able to target the asteroid with aim assist?
I tried shooting one today but had no luck, I think i was not aiming at it correctly

kuertee
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by kuertee » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 14:59

oasis1701 wrote:
Sun, 1. Aug 21, 14:27
Thank you! do you think we need to connect a controller to the game to be able to use the aim assist feature? Would we able to target the asteroid with aim assist?
I tried shooting one today but had no luck, I think i was not aiming at it correctly
no controller required.
the mining laser *i think* is stuck front on, so you need to face the asteroid head-on.
other main weapons are on gimbals. with the targeting assist, allows you to face the target only towards its general direction.

the auto-pilot only helps if it needs to fly a short distance. if its too close to the asteroid, it will disengage due to proximity.
i'll add a "Face X" command to the Interact Menu to address this.

maybe, once an asteroid is targeted reverse or turn and fly a short distance away. then engage auto-pilot.
also, some asteroids are massive - requiring significant damage before they break up.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally BLind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 16:54

kuertee wrote:
Sun, 1. Aug 21, 14:59
no controller required.
the mining laser *i think* is stuck front on, so you need to face the asteroid head-on.
other main weapons are on gimbals. with the targeting assist, allows you to face the target only towards its general direction.

the auto-pilot only helps if it needs to fly a short distance. if its too close to the asteroid, it will disengage due to proximity.
i'll add a "Face X" command to the Interact Menu to address this.

maybe, once an asteroid is targeted reverse or turn and fly a short distance away. then engage auto-pilot.
also, some asteroids are massive - requiring significant damage before they break up.
Hi there,

I've been trying to do manual mining as well, and think I can speak to our current troubles. I feel like I'm missing something obvious, and once I get it things will be a lot smoother.

I use page up/down to find asteroids to target, which is kind of tedious because most of them are empty, at least in the fields I'm looking at. When I find one with, say, silicon I'll hit the guidance key and then trigger autopilot. This takes me somewhere, but I'm not sure exactly where because the autopilot eventually disengages, and I lose my target. Finding it again isn't as easy as I'd expect because page up/down insist on taking me through all the empties again first.

ONce, I did manage to shoot an asteroid to the point of explosion, though I think it was empty. More often than not, when I hit spacebar to fire after autopilot disengages I'm shooting into empty space. I suspect this is where your "Face X," command will be helpful.

I've installed the loot mining mod, but due to the autopilot issues it hasn't proven as time-saving as I'd hoped thus far.

Any ideas on what I could do to work on this would be appreciated. As I said I think I'm missing one or two steps which will help immensely. I've tried steering but with the aforementioned targeting issues it's hard to do consistently.

oasis1701
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Sun, 1. Aug 21, 17:38

I think the first issue you mentioned, e.g. searching for long for mining resources will be solved once we have mining page in the navigation computer.
About targetting. i found an asteroid today. when auto pilot disengaged, i started shooting and it was shooting at empty space. without pressing the arrow keys, i hold the x key to move forward for a bit, then z key to stop. then, i targetted the asteroid again, activated auto pilot, and this time, my ship came around to face it, so i was successful to shoot at it.
edit: IT does work but sometimes also doesn't, most likely the face to target command will help with this!
edit2: Some more helpful things. i stopped by an asteroid and then began tapping the arrow keys (not holding) and kept firing, and managed to find it when my shots began to connect. i reckon this might be a bad idea when ships are around you! but just a workaround for now!

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Mon, 2. Aug 21, 10:07

Is it possible to attach a constant audio cue to the targeted object through modding? or that' something that has to be done by the game developers.
Sometimes i do wonder where a ship or an object is when i target them, thought it would be awesome if they emitted some sort of beeping or noise when they are targeted

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Tue, 3. Aug 21, 00:04

Hi All,

So Oasis1701 and I have been messing around with the game; he actually managed to disable a minotaur raider, something I'm still working on. We've been thinking about tweaks that might help us out, and one that seems to be useful is a sticky guidance marker.

That is, when you reach the point where the autopilot disengages due to proximity, the target disappears, and it's a somewhat tedious process to reacquire and try to find it again. It would be nice if it could still keep the marker until manually changed or the object is destroyed, or something.

I'm not sure how difficult this would be to code, nor how might interfere with missions and the like, but thought I'd pass it along anyway :)

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Tue, 3. Aug 21, 01:10

It would be great if the AP disengages, target lock would not get lost, so I could re engage the AP again to be able to fire back at my targets.
I was fighting a ship, (using the auto pilot to face it and fire at it), though when i disengaged the AP to turn around and come back at it again, my target lock would lose, and i had to select the enemy ship again and then engage the AP so my weapons would lock on it.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Wed, 4. Aug 21, 19:41

(sorry for the spam of questions, as we try to figure this game out)
I managed to find an asteroid that had cilicon in it and managed to aim on it and fire until the asteroid was destroyed.
On my screen I had a text saying "silicon, collect". pressing and holding o did not appear to work, how can I gather/collect the resources?

edit: I managed to find three crystals so far. Is there a way for me to sell these without having to walk on stations and find traders?
I used google to find some answers and it appears that i have to dock with a station and walk through the stations to find traders to sell them.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 03:22

Hi All,

A couple things. Oasis1701 turned me on to a mod called Player Services, which includes the ability to access a lot of station functionality from the map or the interaction menu. This works quite well in my experience, though I'm not sure how to deal with signal or voice leaks accessibly yet. More to the point, the mod appears to give me access to the trader corner, though here is where the problems begin to appear.

As blind players we rely on OCR for reading the game screen, and as demonstrated by previous post in this thread the program we have to work with is rather… Idiosyncratic. It unfortunately flattens the layout of the trade screen, making it very difficult to discern prices, for example. The problem is only made worse by the headers to separate categories of item, which the OCR dumps seemingly at random in the middle of the screen.

I have access to a Mac, which has an alternative OCR system, and that renders the screen much more comprehensibly. It's not practical to play the game on the mac for reasons, not least of which being there's no X4 port for it as far as I'm aware.

To an extent, this is our problem to solve, but it's one example of something which would be made infinitely easier with the addition of text to speech. The OCR is mangling screens which are actually fairly simple, from a visual perspective, at least as far as the info I want is concerned. It's kind of aggravating to be so close to playability and struggling against silly limitations like this.

I'm going to keep exploring and will see if I can find a solution. My workaround with X3 would have been to dump the price list into a file I Could read, but I hope I don't have to do that here.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 08:04

CaplinCaplin wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 03:22
Hi All,

A couple things. Oasis1701 turned me on to a mod called Player Services, which includes the ability to access a lot of station functionality from the map or the interaction menu. This works quite well in my experience, though I'm not sure how to deal with signal or voice leaks accessibly yet. More to the point, the mod appears to give me access to the trader corner, though here is where the problems begin to appear.

As blind players we rely on OCR for reading the game screen, and as demonstrated by previous post in this thread the program we have to work with is rather… Idiosyncratic. It unfortunately flattens the layout of the trade screen, making it very difficult to discern prices, for example. The problem is only made worse by the headers to separate categories of item, which the OCR dumps seemingly at random in the middle of the screen.

I have access to a Mac, which has an alternative OCR system, and that renders the screen much more comprehensibly. It's not practical to play the game on the mac for reasons, not least of which being there's no X4 port for it as far as I'm aware.

To an extent, this is our problem to solve, but it's one example of something which would be made infinitely easier with the addition of text to speech. The OCR is mangling screens which are actually fairly simple, from a visual perspective, at least as far as the info I want is concerned. It's kind of aggravating to be so close to playability and struggling against silly limitations like this.

I'm going to keep exploring and will see if I can find a solution. My workaround with X3 would have been to dump the price list into a file I Could read, but I hope I don't have to do that here.
So I was going to wait for kuertee's accessibility mod updates so that I can manage to get some credits; then after that checking out the UI that shows prices and such.
I think we have two options to solve this; perhaps the integration of the tolk library into the game by the game developers so the screen reader can read the selected items or replacing the UIs with an OCR friendly version, something without columns and tables and just plane text.
It is good to know that we can open the trade menu from the ship with mods though! So is it then possible to show the npc menus and things that's related to station walking?

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 10:29

As far as I can tell, we can open conversation with any NPC on the station, as well as do crafting, although I haven’t tried that yet. I am quite sure that modifying all of the screens that struggle with OCR would be quite unlikely, not to mention tedious. The two biggest examples so far are probably the ship upgrade UI and the trade screen, but there will probably be more. it is the situation where items are listed in columns with prices that seems to have particular problems. A lessor example would be the ship info screen, where a lot of data is presented in similar format, though at least it's mostly static. perhaps there is a straightforward way to handle things, although I’m not sure what it is at the moment from the modding side.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 13:22

Re: auto-pilot disengaging without the guidance marker getting cancelled ... ... try my mod: Accept Mission For Later Button: https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations ... id=9355323

One of the features I last added to it is: “...v2.0.1, 19 Apr 2021: New feature: Guidance to Position/Object now does not get removed UNLESS you abort or set it somewhere/something else. This allows you to switch missions without the auto-pilot getting interrupted...”

Most of the features of Player Services will be in Accessibility Features mod. But instead of needing the map, it’ll be listed in the context command list when it is expanded as I described in a previous post. NPC interaction however will be limited to when you are near the station or docked, instead of being available from anywhere.

I’ll release the new version later. Was gonna do it last night but my first vaccine jab knocked me out a bit. I’m fine now.

New features include the “Turn to Face X”, Mineable Asteroids list, Mining Regions list, tabbed list. And when you destroy an asteroid it’s dropped items will be moved near your ship. You only need to scoop them up with your tractor beam (by default, “O” key). You won’t need to chase them. My Loot Mining mod is not required, but recommended because it adds asteroid mineral drops as mission targets, which triggers the default mission ping notification.

I was trying to list mission offers data with the stations earlier, but have not found a method to get which stations they are offered. That function requires the map to be open - which is not possible with the custom UI of the Navigation Computer. I’ll just list mission offers as a separate list accessible from a tab.

Thanks for letting us know about the OCR getting confused with tables with columns. I’ll think of something for those types of screens.

As for more complex screens ... e.g. station building and ship configurations ... I was thinking of giving you guys pre-configured stations and ships pulled from the game. E.g. Adding modules to stations will be a click, and the game would just add it, like how the AI builds stations. This would remove the need for you to drag the module into position.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by kuertee » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 15:13

Here's the new version: https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/748
Spoiler
Show
v1.0.3, 4 Aug 2021:
-New feature: Navigation Computer: tabbed version. Tabs: Points Of Interests, Objects In Sector, Owned Properties.
-New feature: Mineable Asteroid and Asteroid Fields in Points Of Interests list.
-New feature: Navigation Computer command for gates: "Auto-pilot then enter".
-New feature: Navigation Computer command: Target.
-New feature: Interact Menu and Navigation Computer command: "Turn To Face X".
-New feature: Mining: collectable minerals from destroyed asteroids are spawned near the player ship, allowing the player to collect them with the tractor beam without chasing them down.
Mods: RPG: Reputations and Professions, Social Standings and Citizenships, Crime has Consequences, Alternatives to Death. Missions/NPCs: Emergent Missions, NPC Reactions, Mod Parts Trader, High-sec Rooms are Locked, Hacking Outcomes, More Generic Missions, Waypoint Fields for Deployment. Others: Auto-cam, Friendly Fire Tweaks, Teleport From Transporter Room, Wear and Tear. QoL: Trade Analytics, Loot Mining, Ship Scanner, Signal Leak Hunter, Station Scanner, Surface Element Targeting, etc.

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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by oasis1701 » Thu, 5. Aug 21, 16:54

kuertee wrote:
Thu, 5. Aug 21, 15:13
Here's the new version: https://www.nexusmods.com/x4foundations/mods/748
Spoiler
Show
v1.0.3, 4 Aug 2021:
-New feature: Navigation Computer: tabbed version. Tabs: Points Of Interests, Objects In Sector, Owned Properties.
-New feature: Mineable Asteroid and Asteroid Fields in Points Of Interests list.
-New feature: Navigation Computer command for gates: "Auto-pilot then enter".
-New feature: Navigation Computer command: Target.
-New feature: Interact Menu and Navigation Computer command: "Turn To Face X".
-New feature: Mining: collectable minerals from destroyed asteroids are spawned near the player ship, allowing the player to collect them with the tractor beam without chasing them down.

Hi there!
Amazing update! The distances are now being read and the new tab is very cool, will makes things much less confusing! thanks so much, I had some feedback regarding the mod (Which i think caplin will also agree once he checks the mod out)
1. Is it possible to move the unknown ships into a different tabs of its own, so we can browse the "objects in sector" list a little bit easier?
2. Is it possible that the context menu in the navigation computer, becomes its own window? so when i click on an unknown station, the list disappears and it shows me a window with the available options? "auto pilot, target, etc". Just a minor thing. Current implementation works as well.
3. At the moment will the mod show asteroids with crystals or space eggs or items in them? or only minable resources with a mining ship.
4. I think i managed to break the mod; when clicking on navigation computer, nothing comes up anymore. I'll see if i can reproduce it and post a video if you'd like.
Also very glad to know we can be able to trade with station npcs in the future with the mod; I have not installed the player services yet, I thought it is incompatible with version 4 of the game.
I'll paste an OCR result of your mod UI below so you can see what a big difference it made compared to the previous UI.
p.s. I also had my first vaccine shot yesterday and last night it felt like i was ran over by a truck and i was on fire, So much fever.

OCR result:
Objects in sector
Unknown Station (149_95 km)
Unknown Station (162.46 km)
Unknown Station (189.34 km)
Unknown Station (221.53 km)
Unknown Station (243.32 km)
Unknown Station (247.36 km)
Unknown Station (259.68 km)
o-pilot To Unknown Station
Target
Turn TO Face Unknown Station
ore (5.97 km)
Silicon (8.77 km)
Asteroid Fields
Ice (40.12 km)
Unknown Ship (43.05 km)
Unknown Ship (43.6 km)
Unknown Ship (44.58 km)
Unknown Ship (45.3 km)
Unknown Ship (46 km)
Unknown Ship (59.48 km)
Unknown Ship (59.82 km)

CaplinCaplin
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Re: Serious Attempt to get into X4 as a Totally Blind Player

Post by CaplinCaplin » Fri, 6. Aug 21, 05:10

Hi there,

Excellent indeed. The distances definitely help me both get a sense for the scale of sectors and start some kind of orientation, which I appreciate a great deal. I agree that it would be nice if we could clear the navigation computer interface whenever the context menu comes up, as it would de-clutter the screen for OCR.

I do have a few questions which are a little tangential but still related.

I was trying a couple missions from the offers tab on the map, and noticed that sometimes I'd start guidance, only to have autopilot cutout in the middle of the route and seem to get into some kind of stuck state. Pressing shift=A at that point only results in "Autopilot disengaged," despite the fact that the ship isn't moving and I'm not actually where I want to be.

Is this an autopilot bug? I don't think it's related to the mod but it's still annoying, whatever it is, as I can't follow the visual guidance obviously.

I really appreciate all the work you've done on this. I feel like the playability of the game is growing a bit every day, which is remarkable.

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