New to game, enjoying myself but...

[ThatDoomedGuy]

I'm new to this game, but I loved X3 back when that was the modern X game and put hundreds of hours into it - so I'm hardly new the the micromanagement this series is known for. I've put in roughly 30 hours while learning the different game systems and I've managed to get myself a decent sized trade fleet and station, and am now starting to build up a military fleet. This puts me squarely at the point that I'm now running into the AI problems that have, from what I see posted about this game online, plagued it since it's release. The main issue I've had so far is fighters refusing to use travel mode, this makes it virtually impossible to have any sort of organized fleet actions involving them. I already gave up trying to put ships into my own wing, and instead have them in their own wings and have those wings set to protect my ship. The issue persists and from what I'm seeing from players in the community, the AI problems only get worse from this point onwards.

I'm the furthest thing from being up to date on the news and intentions that Egosoft have going forwards, so my question is this - Has Egosoft announced any plans to revamp the AI into something functional?
If we've heard nothing as to the correction of these game breaking issues, can anyone recommend any mods that at least help alleviate them? I don't need a perfect AI, I just want to be able to play the game without these issues destroying the experience going forwards. (I heard VRO is good for example, but its Wiki specifically mentions that it doesn't fix the AI issues.)

Thanks.

[Ragnos28]

Hi,

IMO, the defend command is prety broken. I use it on my destroyers and many times they don't react when I am being atacked, also, rather often, they don't folow me closely. When they are close, they would engage hostiles even tho those hostiles don't atack me...now, that is not exactly a minus, I like that, is just strange behavior for defend command.
As for fighters...what the AI does prety well, is the intercept command for carrier based fighters (is the only way I use fighters in my fleets). That...and the posibility to order the carrier to keep the fighters docked, gives you a certain degree of control over them.
Where the AI drops the ball prety hard is in the behavior of long range combat vesels, namelly torpedo boats and destroyers, that for some reason, feel the need to "hug" their targets and is really annoying

This is an example of fleet combat, with the good and the bad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgfnZ8HwNM&t=2270s

[ThatDoomedGuy]

I should specify, I only set the wing leader ship up with the protect command, I set the other ships to intercept. I have tried a large variety of different commands, such as the follow command with the wing leader and other setups to try and get the AI to do something as basic as following my ship reliably. In my experience the only time I can reliably get the AI to use travel mode is when they are following a target out of sector. This isn't even getting to the point of trying to get capital ships to function properly, which seems like an even greater impossibility.

Any potential fixes on the horizon? Or any mods that do the job? I want to get the expansions but I just can't justify the investment when such an important core system seems so dysfunctional.

[Mistle]

I wish I could hear the response from Egosoft , event short "NO" would be helpful .
Now devs working on patch 4.10 and multiplayer option, when they finish this patch new DLC is on the horizon . I rather wouldn't expect that AI ships/pilots would be fixed soon.

[Ragnos28]

I should specify, I only set the wing leader ship up with the protect command, I set the other ships to intercept. I have tried a large variety of different commands, such as the follow command with the wing leader and other setups to try and get the AI to do something as basic as following my ship reliably. In my experience the only time I can reliably get the AI to use travel mode is when they are following a target out of sector. This isn't even getting to the point of trying to get capital ships to function properly, which seems like an even greater impossibility.

Any potential fixes on the horizon? Or any mods that do the job? I want to get the expansions but I just can't justify the investment when such an important core system seems so dysfunctional.

Like I said, if you want the best from your fighters, asign them to a carrier, give them intercept command, order the carrier to hold them docked, so you don't launch 40 fighters every time a Xenon T come in your vicinity, and you will be fine, fighter wise.
If you want to pilot a fighter or an M ship and have other fighters asign to your ship, then..yes..you will be disappointed, your subordinates will not folow you closelly.

As far as I know, mods cannot improve the AI and they are not AI improvements on the horizon...

In my opinion, the key to enjoy X4 Foundation fleet combat is to know and accept what works and what does not work.

What works:
- fighters asign to carriers on intercept will engage S/M targets rather eficiently and with little to no intervention form your part...if you select on the carrier the condition Launch for the fighters, they will automaticly take flight, engage S/M targets, land on the carrier and repair themselfs if you select high level resuply on global commands, with no intervention from your part. This works rather well....there is still the isue of fighters derping when they try to land on the terran carrier Tokyo, but 4.1 promises to solve all that...as of myself, I will believe it when I see it, but that is what they said

What does not work:
- torpedo boats...I like them..I use them extensively...they will suffer loses when sent against capitals (Xenon, I trust them to be more eficient against capitals that don't have much in AA defence, like terrans), because they "hug" the target even tho they can fire their torpedoos from long distances...however their targets will die quickly. Perfect for those instances when an Xenon K or I appear near your vulnerable carriers or Aux ships. Also, never send them against station, because they will die in mass..big no no. What I said is valid for all M ships, they are very fragile, only torpedo boats have the damage to be efective in combat, at least against hard targets.

- AI of the destroyers...the only thing I trust them to do safely is to engage S/M targets in my vecinity. For anything else, always save before giving them an atack order against a hard target (capital ship or station), sometimes they can surprise you and act satisfactory (made a recent post on the matter), but more often than not, they will derp around and get themselfs killed.

If you can accept these limitations, you might enjoy the fleet combat of X4 Foundations...if not...then maybe this game is not for you..at least, not yeat.

[Falcrack]

This issue of NPC ships not using their travel drive frequently enough is IMO a big issue with the AI, and one which I wish the devs would pay more attention to. Nothing is more frustrating to see your ships slowly crawling towards some distant destination halfway across the sector when you know they have a travel drive they could easily activate to cut the time down dramatically.

I think too many people complain about AI issues without clearly specifying what the AI issue is, and that's not helpful for the devs to fix it.

[Slashman]

This issue of NPC ships not using their travel drive frequently enough is IMO a big issue with the AI, and one which I wish the devs would pay more attention to. Nothing is more frustrating to see your ships slowly crawling towards some distant destination halfway across the sector when you know they have a travel drive they could easily activate to cut the time down dramatically.

I think too many people complain about AI issues without clearly specifying what the AI issue is, and that's not helpful for the devs to fix it.

I can agree with that and I thought that was listed with the patch notes of 4.10 Beta that they had fixed it.

[Falcrack]

This issue of NPC ships not using their travel drive frequently enough is IMO a big issue with the AI, and one which I wish the devs would pay more attention to. Nothing is more frustrating to see your ships slowly crawling towards some distant destination halfway across the sector when you know they have a travel drive they could easily activate to cut the time down dramatically.

I think too many people complain about AI issues without clearly specifying what the AI issue is, and that's not helpful for the devs to fix it.

I can agree with that and I thought that was listed with the patch notes of 4.10 Beta that they had fixed it.

I think improvements have been made. One issue I reported is that ships in boarding ops will boost towards the target ship if they are far away from it, draining their shields right before the boarding op, instead of using the travel drive. Not very sensible if you ask me!

[af_2017]

I already gave up trying to put ships into my own wing, and instead have them in their own wings and have those wings set to protect my ship. The issue persists and from what I'm seeing from players in the community, the AI problems only get worse from this point onwards.

I guess that the problem that we do not understand requirements for having ships in own wing.
We can see that npc wings perform quite well.
So I guess the point is that we do need to give orders to subordinates. Which, I suspect, npc fleet leader does. You can check order queue for subordinate for "auto" orders. I believe they've been added by its leader.
So that's not enough to add ships to your wing and expect them to do things automatically, you must control them.

[jlehtone]

So I guess the point is that we do need to give orders to subordinates. Which, I suspect, npc fleet leader does. You can check order queue for subordinate for "auto" orders. I believe they've been added by its leader.
So that's not enough to add ships to your wing and expect them to do things automatically, you must control them.

There are clearly orders given, for example, Intercept groups of Carrier get "Attack" orders, and Attack groups do get the same target as their leader.


AI ships (including the infamous Autopilot?) "have a plan". System can query them about where they are currently heading or what they have targeted. That information can be used in the escorts.

A ship flown by player has no plan. Nobody (except the player's brain) knows where it is heading. CPU cannot fetch data from brain.

Have you tried to chase hare or wind geese? NPC with task to follow player are in such sitation; they can only react to what you have already done.


Wingmen of playership have been equally futile in all the games in the franchise.


Playership as member fleet has the other side too: since when has player followed orders? (Particularly ones that you cannot hear or see.) Player is a rogue, who does not fit into "the team".

I already gave up trying to put ships into my own wing, and instead have them in their own wings and have those wings set to protect my ship.

Don't tell them (fleet) anything about your ship. Tell them to"Fly here", "Attack these", etc. If you happen to be in the same area, then you can watch their six and exploit the distraction that they cause to the foes.

[Falcrack]

So I guess the point is that we do need to give orders to subordinates. Which, I suspect, npc fleet leader does. You can check order queue for subordinate for "auto" orders. I believe they've been added by its leader.
So that's not enough to add ships to your wing and expect them to do things automatically, you must control them.

There are clearly orders given, for example, Intercept groups of Carrier get "Attack" orders, and Attack groups do get the same target as their leader.


AI ships (including the infamous Autopilot?) "have a plan". System can query them about where they are currently heading or what they have targeted. That information can be used in the escorts.

A ship flown by player has no plan. Nobody (except the player's brain) knows where it is heading. CPU cannot fetch data from brain.

Have you tried to chase hare or wind geese? NPC with task to follow player are in such sitation; they can only react to what you have already done.


Wingmen of playership have been equally futile in all the games in the franchise.


Playership as member fleet has the other side too: since when has player followed orders? (Particularly ones that you cannot hear or see.) Player is a rogue, who does not fit into "the team".

I already gave up trying to put ships into my own wing, and instead have them in their own wings and have those wings set to protect my ship.

Don't tell them (fleet) anything about your ship. Tell them to"Fly here", "Attack these", etc. If you happen to be in the same area, then you can watch their six and exploit the distraction that they cause to the foes.

Despite wingmen not having access to my brain, in most cases I find that wingmen assigned an attack order to my ship will indeed start attacking enemy ships in the vicinity when I am also fighting them.

[jlehtone]

You probably target a foe that you attack? Then your ship "has target". If the wingmen periodically check whether the lead ship has a target, then they do get an answer and copy it.

[ThatDoomedGuy]

I already gave up trying to put ships into my own wing, and instead have them in their own wings and have those wings set to protect my ship. The issue persists and from what I'm seeing from players in the community, the AI problems only get worse from this point onwards.

I guess that the problem that we do not understand requirements for having ships in own wing.
We can see that npc wings perform quite well.
So I guess the point is that we do need to give orders to subordinates. Which, I suspect, npc fleet leader does. You can check order queue for subordinate for "auto" orders. I believe they've been added by its leader.
So that's not enough to add ships to your wing and expect them to do things automatically, you must control them.

The issue here is that the problems aren't stemming from advanced combinations of commands, I just want the AI to be able to follow my ships at a relatively closeish distance when Im flying in a straight line. The AI in X3 didn't have this issue - though there was no travel mode there. Regardless of that, how hard should it really be for AI ships following a player to use travel mode if they are a certain distance away from the player without having to micro them? If travel mode turning is an issue, allow them to turn more than the player would be allowed to, or any other combination of potential solutions, but right now using wings of fighters seems like an exercise in frustration.

[af_2017]

So I guess the point is that we do need to give orders to subordinates. Which, I suspect, npc fleet leader does. You can check order queue for subordinate for "auto" orders. I believe they've been added by its leader.
So that's not enough to add ships to your wing and expect them to do things automatically, you must control them.

I was wrong here. There's no "auto" orders which improves npc fleets. Sorry for that.
I had closer look at it and seems that actually npc fleets fly the same way with same issues with only difference that npcs fleet leaders do not complain

[jlehtone]

only difference that npcs fleet leaders do not complain

Here is typical conversation between the player and his fleet leader: https://youtu.be/Mx9z99YJ_7s

[flywlyx]

Have you tried to chase hare or wind geese? NPC with task to follow player are in such sitation; they can only react to what you have already done.

Not comparable at all, AI knows all your speed, heading, acceleration and throttle even before player notice their ship react based on their command. If player is not running full throttle, AI should be able to perfectly follow player. But our observation tell us AI doesn't even try!