[Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

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Hijack_Hornet
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[Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 11:48

Before going into the details of why I decided to stop modding X4 and playing it AGAIN, let's have a quick overview of who I am.
I'm a 25yo computer science engineer with a strong passion for game design. I went and studied game design during an exchange program in Ireland, and studied it by myself as well with references such as Designing games by Tynan Sylvester.
I'm also a modder for multiple games and made my own mini games over the 7 years I've learned to use Unity, blender, Substance painter, Photoshop and Marvellous designer.
Finally, I'm a big fan of sci-fi, and space opera / management games.

Why do I like X4 and what makes it unique ?
One of the main reason X4 is interesting is that it features an open world sandbox universe that seems to be living on its own. Though the player has enough power to be a decisive balance on the world direction, making the player feel like he is playing a big part of a universe that looks bigger than him.
The scale in the X universe plays a lot in its aesthetic. Being able to drive small or gigantic ships, switching from the human scale, to an XL monster is incredible.
The lore (though hard to grab in X4) is also very developed and believable. The storytelling isn’t just recycling old clichés and that is for the best as it provides a substantial lore for players to remember and cherish.
Ships designs are great and different from each other, though we could also appreciate some more wild-looking ones.
Finally, one of the main reason X4 is incredible, the economy is simulated and everything in the galaxy is produced from the ground up. The same way EVE make a miner feel like he is not only earning money but helping its faction grow is well translated into the game.

What is unacceptable bad design ?
OK here comes the controversial part. There are a few things players have been complaining about on both this forum and steam review since the game launched and that still have not been addressed.
At its core, X4 is a management simulation game. Most of the player playtime is going to happen in the menu-map UI part, giving order, managing its fleet, looking at mission offers and logs.
In that case, your main goal should be to make that part of the game as smooth as possible. And at the moment, it's pretty bad... The side bar show 10/15 icons without any written names (outside of tool tips) which means that even after 100h most players will keep randomly clicking them until finding what tab they are looking for.
You also know that players will quickly grow an empire with hundreds of ships to manage at once. Which means you should show as much useful details on those ships as possible on this panel so that they don’t have to remember what ships models are in terms of size, roles, and faction type. Fortunately, we have mods like info centre and JP multirename mod that is very hard to setup and quite inconvenient but that does what we would hope a management centred game would do by default.
Auto ship renaming is the only way players can organize themselves without creating tones of fleets just for the sake of grouping things. Second thing players are going to do a lot : give orders. Again that requires the player to select each and every one of its ships one by ont and right click>information>behaviortab>selectbehavior>change all params>confirm, and then do this again the other 99 ships. That is just plain stupid. I'm sorry but you can’t make a management game and have no copy past mechanism for tasks that are long to do. Better design would be to be able to select multiple ships>rightclick>setbehavior>confirm. Done. I made a mod Hj - Copy behaviour to do something similar, but it took me 3 weeks to reverse engineer your code just so I could finally find a two method call solution to this. So if it was that simple in the end, why didn’t you make it when so many people asked for it ?
OK, well the rest of the game might be good after all. Let’s fly our ship a bit... Wait why am I getting a notification every 5 second when one of my ships earns some money ? Can I turn that off ? Oh yes I can. But then I'm also turning of ANY money change including mission reward of bounty when killing enemy ships. Again, how can you miss on something like a good notification filter when you know your game is going to send 60 notification a minute to the player ? Why do I get 6 times "Object collected 1 crystal" instead of "Object collected 6 crystal" ? Why cant bounty be summed and rewarded a bit later so I don’t get a notification for every defence drone I'm destroying, with a com video on top of that. I'm in a fight and getting spammed by "thanks for your help" comments.

You sell your game for the price of an AAA game, with 2 more dlcs, but fail to provide the bare minimum in terms of user experience.
And that is the reason I'm still leaving a bad review on steam and do not recommend that game to any friend of mine.
The day you'll start working on what fails in your game instead of adding small content to a broken base, I'll probably come back to it and change my mind.
But the more the years goes, and the more it appears that this is never going to be a thing, and we’d better wait for an X5 that hopefully will come with the use of another game engine and some good design practices. Because X4 is the only game I've ever seen that has to show a load screen for turning on anti-aliasing, and make save files that are 18 000 000 lines. You can keep telling yourself it’s normal because the game simulates all the universe, but the truth is, it just grew out of your hands and the xml approach combined with non-performant approach to saving things (because let’s be honest, the yield of ore could be determined by seed alone and doesn’t need to be saved for the sim to work properly) just end up bending knees to even the most powerful of machines. And as someone that'd like to enjoy the game (because it has a lot of good things wrapped into a thin layer of really terrible UI), but has to deal with a 40/70fps at best on an RTX 3080 and a i5 - 9600k, with the game on an NVME, and 32gb or ram, I'm just sad that all this goes that way.

Please don’t take this as a hate comment, but rather as someone that would love to be your best fan, but can’t put up with that negligence anymore.

Edit, removed the part of the post containing non major suggestion as it confused some people. It went to a separate thread.
Last edited by Hijack_Hornet on Thu, 22. Jul 21, 13:54, edited 3 times in total.

Waltz9
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Waltz9 » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 12:03

Compared to X3 there is improvement but yes X-games always been a problem for late game players.
At first its easy to set some goals but as soon you reached some capital ships you feel invincible and because there isnt much challengde for me at that point I lose the will to continue.
I love the game but keep restarting it because I'm waiting for the improvements which doesnt break other mecanics.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Mistle » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 13:51

Yeah, on the one hand brilliant space/economic simulator which gives me a lot of funs on the other hands problems with station/ships management, AI of pilots which were not fixed from the beginning of the game offends me also as the customer.
It's like of buying sport car where after the first enthusiasm you see that gearbox during the shifting gears has glitch and you ask the producer to fix it. And after few years they didn't fix it and you loose patience as customer.
So I understand you and good luck , wonder what you choose as your next game? :roll:

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Hijack_Hornet
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 14:01

Thanks ^^ I don't know yet. I'm mostly waiting for Starbases release on Jully 29th but thats a topic for another time and place ^^
I'm just glad i could share my experience with X4 and modding X4 with the peoples here. The community is gold, and so is the dev team. I think there is just some issue with priorisation of tasks.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 15:25

I always love those kind of big announcements "I'm quitting X4" then see several pages long explenation containing non-issues rather than any real major flaw.

Like OP basically quit game over cosmetics:
- factions all looks the same - there in no point of coloring/flags when you have IFF - you can turn on faction colors on map GUI - that's basically modern equivalent of a flag.
- I can't mass rename - at least you can mass name, when you order ships in shipyard, so this is partially improved.
- game spam messages - you can selectively turn them off in global settings - I turned off all spammy messages without turning off any improtant message and I have vast empire.


Also for computer sicence engineer you seems to have no idea about cost-to-benefi ratio - making something "simple" as having stations with paint mods and flags would require to retexture several dozen statino modules to be compactibile with several dozen existing paint mods - in short it not so simple and it rather work intense and might not be wothwhile - for example most of Terran DLC ships looks ugly with most of paint mods other than the default one and faction-specific.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by spankahontis » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 16:13

What could be improved ?
You make an excellent point here.
I've said countless times in the past that you could have 500 Sectors, 1000 Sectors? And it would still be bland background with the same generic Faction.
I have to leave it to imagination that the Split Faction whose space I'm travelling in is different to it's neighbouring Split Clan.
This is what I was saying when comparing to X:Rebirth.. It didn't have much in the way of quantity, just a hand full of systems.
But what Egosoft did to those Systems gave it so much charm.. When I travelled from Albion, a System under a tyrannical Corporate Oligarchy fighting an insurgency with Heart of Albion to DeVries, I felt that dred that I went from an established system to a system gripped with famine, piracy and colonists desperate to carve out a living and the threat of Plutarch on it's gate.
A war that felt gradual. The only thing I felt was missing? Is the Reavers looked like Republic of Cantera, when they should of looked like something from Mad Max. the way they're described in the lore "Shooting first, snarling demands after".
People seen to miss those little things that made every system in X:Rebirth unique and that was only added upon with Fields of Opportunity, that system was so mysterious and interesting to explore.
X4: Foundations has gone backwards in that regard, maybe the fault of there being I feel an inbalance in procedural generation in the game, that it's slowly robbing Egosofts artists of their creativity?
Elite Dangerous create their planets using Procedural Generation, so the more keen-Eyed player can recognise the same Mountain or the same crater etc. But I guess that's the price for trying to create a Universe when you want to make everything unique and catered by artists, which sadly would be a mammoth task and Egosoft don't have the money, time or resources to do.

But, I would love to see (Which I think is in Egosofts grasp to do) each Split Family become it's own mini-Faction with unique Ship Colours, NPC Clothes, Faction Logo showing who they represent and even have Split on Stations saying things like "Hail Family Kritt", "Hail Zyarth!", "Hail Family Phi!".. Anything that can separate the clones from each other. I agree, a system with the families name is not enough, they need to be their own Factions, and show it!! Maybe even encourage them to war against their Patriarchy?

What is unacceptable bad design ?
Multiple selection? You CAN do that with a mix of hot keys and your mouse.. Hold Ctrl or Left Shift (I forget which one?) Mouse over the ships and then right-click and give your orders from the box.
OR you can hold down same buttons and left-click each ship you want on your properties list and then right-click to give orders from the properties list.
Maybe there's a better way of doing that? But I'm just happy that you have the option to do that.

I can understand that with all the features that x4 has that it can be hard to put it all together into a more easier/streamlined way. And I share your dissatisfaction. I feel like I need to take a college course to understand the intricacies of the Map Hud and the tabs and how everything works?
Feels like I'm trying to figure out how adobe photoshop works all over again. I'm 41 and my memory is failing me and it doesn't help trying to figure this all out while I get more forgetful and suffer cunfusion in situations when trying to make a quick response to something happening.
It really is a muddled mess, again I turn to X:Rebirth, their side bar was imho a MASSIVE improvement to X3's side bar, I feel Egosoft have made massive strides forward in certain aspects of the game, like the map in general; but they've taken major steps back in terms of how the hud can be interacted with.
The bugs don't bother me, I know Egosoft will get to them in time.

Please don’t take this as a hate comment, but rather as someone that would love to be your best fan, but can’t put up with that negligence anymore.

In the end, i'd take 1 Fan that gives constructive criticism over 1000 White Knights that give it a shinning 10/10 rating any day.
Personally, I'm content with the performance, my PC is 8 years old with a graphics card that's 4 years old. I don't get 40/70 fps, but as long as it doesn't drop below 24 fps? Then i'm happy.
The size in savefiles is going to be a problem concerning GOG galaxy as it has a breakdown sometimes with the savefiles, lost several hours of game time in the past.
I wouldn't go as far an giving it a thumbs down, I think what X4 has done so far is satisfactory for me, but we all have things about games that we don't like.

Thanks for the post, It was a good read.
Ragna-Tech.. Forging a Better Tomorrow!

My most annoying Bugs list 6.0 Beta 4 + [All DLC]
--------------------------------
Nvidium Worshop Animation Enlarge Broken :(
Building Modules causes low frame rate :o
Massive Framerate drops freezing game! :doh:
Save Corrupted Fixed the Crash! :-D

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 16:34

It is mandatory that the Devs work on the UI in a future update. Take a break with the new features and make this game clean.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 17:25

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 15:25
Like OP basically quit game over cosmetics:
- factions all looks the same - there in no point of coloring/flags when you have IFF - you can turn on faction colors on map GUI - that's basically modern equivalent of a flag.
- I can't mass rename - at least you can mass name, when you order ships in shipyard, so this is partially improved.
- game spam messages - you can selectively turn them off in global settings - I turned off all spammy messages without turning off any improtant message and I have vast empire.
Start by reading my post before answering things i already covered in my message.
The cosmetic aspect was in the "would be nice, but not a priority" section
The rename thing wouldnt be an issue if the display of your ships was more detailed and easy to go through
Game spam message, bro just read what i said because your "solution" was mentioned in my message already...

And yes an engineer i know what cost to effect is, and that is why i make this post. Start by making what really matter in terms of user experience work (again not talking about the cosmetic here for thoose who read ;))
I'm not making a "big declaration", i'm not a big enough part of the community for that my departure matter. Only reason i make this post is because i can relate to this type of small developpement studio with big ideas and that i hope i can at least make them understand why the game drive off some people.
Now, that they take this into account or not is up to them and doesnt really matter to me personally. It is for the people like you, that keep playing it that it will matter the most.
Multiple selection? You CAN do that with a mix of hot keys and your mouse.. Hold Ctrl or Left Shift (I forget which one?) Mouse over the ships and then right-click and give your orders from the box.
Yes i know thanks xD It's not what i meant. It works great for basic orders, and you can always use mimic for mining orders, but when it come to default Orders it's quite different. You could for instance want to setup an advanced behavior (i take the example of the modded tatertrader as it has a lot of parameters) and if you want to assign it to a dozen of ships you'll have to re-enter everything for every ship.
I can understand that with all the features that x4 has that it can be hard to put it all together into a more easier/streamlined way.
This sums up very well my feeling. I'm not saying the game lake content, and while i'd love for the universe aesthetic to be more unique, i would still enjoy it very much as it is. I dont need another faction, or more ships right now. What I (and i think we all) need is someone to start fresh on the game and raise every issue with the UI and control system. Because it's easy to forget that things might be far fetched when you've been working on a game for the last 3/4 years. It can be helpful to get some fresh insights.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 17:46

The discussion about save file size and loading time have been done over and over again.

I have vast empire with dozen huge stations, hundreds of traders, 10 fleets of 200+ ships each and the late game of 500+ hours - my game save in about 40 seconds and load in 1 min 30 seconds.
Considering the amount of things that need to be tracked this is damn good.

It doesn't even make a difference between SSD and HDD - I tested both and HDD is +15 seconds on save and +30 seconds on load.

As for performance -the game is heavily CPU dependent - if it's a bottleneck you won't get good performance despite all other things.

You don't need computer science engineering to figure it out.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Old Drullo321 » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 18:48

mr.WHO wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 15:25
I always love those kind of big announcements "I'm quitting X4" then see several pages long explenation containing non-issues rather than any real major flaw.

Like OP basically quit game over cosmetics:
- factions all looks the same - there in no point of coloring/flags when you have IFF - you can turn on faction colors on map GUI - that's basically modern equivalent of a flag.
- I can't mass rename - at least you can mass name, when you order ships in shipyard, so this is partially improved.
- game spam messages - you can selectively turn them off in global settings - I turned off all spammy messages without turning off any improtant message and I have vast empire.


Also for computer sicence engineer you seems to have no idea about cost-to-benefi ratio - making something "simple" as having stations with paint mods and flags would require to retexture several dozen statino modules to be compactibile with several dozen existing paint mods - in short it not so simple and it rather work intense and might not be wothwhile - for example most of Terran DLC ships looks ugly with most of paint mods other than the default one and faction-specific.
But that are some of the issues I had to while playing the game. Leaving any performance questions out of the discussion, the UI lacks basic functionality. E.g. X4 is alot more about managment and mass ships then X3 but it doesn't give me more, sometimes less methods to handle them efficiently in a way I won't feel frustrated. I didn't give the game any bad review, I bought the whatever it called edition with two DLC included at X4 release. I won't buy anything else until some fundamentals are fixed and I'm not talking about different visuals for builder ships.

PS.: I'm a "normal" software engineer myself and know about the complexity of some of the mentioned problems (UI design, performance). While it would be nice to have faster loading time or even more multi-threading optimization or more FPS in the UI, in the end it doesn't matter for me. I simply feel this game is a chore then any fun to play after a while. And part of the reason is the UI.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 19:20

Old Drullo321 wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 18:48
But that are some of the issues I had to while playing the game. Leaving any performance questions out of the discussion, the UI lacks basic functionality. E.g. X4 is alot more about managment and mass ships then X3 but it doesn't give me more, sometimes less methods to handle them efficiently in a way I won't feel frustrated. I didn't give the game any bad review, I bought the whatever it called edition with two DLC included at X4 release. I won't buy anything else until some fundamentals are fixed and I'm not talking about different visuals for builder ships.

PS.: I'm a "normal" software engineer myself and know about the complexity of some of the mentioned problems (UI design, performance). While it would be nice to have faster loading time or even more multi-threading optimization or more FPS in the UI, in the end it doesn't matter for me. I simply feel this game is a chore then any fun to play after a while. And part of the reason is the UI.
The UI could always be better, but it vastly improved comparing to what we had in 1.0.
X3, while still has some edge in niche parts of UI is inferior to X4 - I'm playing X3:FL and the UI is one reason why I won't have vast fleet (singular). In X4 I have 10 big fleets and I can comand and organize them very easily and fast, plus you have the RTS like GUI.
X4 is, like previous games, a sandbox - it's hard to make perfect GUI because people have diffrent gameplays and find different things as primary interest - the only solution would be 100% customizable GUI where we could customize and ajdust the GUI compositions, size and priorities - as I said, comparing to 1.0 we are already drifting that way with recent addition of customizable right side map bar.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Old Drullo321 » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 21:13

In X3 you could easily navigate through menues with memorized keyboard commands. Beside the lack of UI scaling (important, sadly) it is way better usable, not mentioned the good performance. While the X4 UI is better in its current version to release, it still lack easy fundamentals. Up to date, there is no simple copy & paste method for ship renaming. This is such a basic feature which doesn't cost time but would make the UI so much better. I was tired of renaming hundred of simple miners by hand, typing the same sequence again and again, just changing the last number.
I could list easily five more easy to fix annoyances still in the UI since 1.0, everyone easy to implement but nothing has been done for the last two years in this regard. Heck, Egosoft could double the FPS, implement the Borons and whatever, i won't return and buy another DLC if i can't play the game without getting tired by the UI.
The game itself has so many different features for any part of the sandbox, yet I can't enjoy them because of tedious and/or missing methods to achieve some simple goals.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 21:23

Memorizing key combination for GUI navigation is very dated design - it was good like 20 years ago, but no way to go for modern game - the whole menu design and logic was simply an extension of what we got in X-BTF which is the ancient game of late 90s.


As for mass renaming - while convinient - why would you even need to rename 100s of miners anyway?
I have dozen mega stations and I mass assign like 30 miners each and I'm done. The only thing I care, from time to time, is to check if amount dropped from 30 and replenish lost miners then.
Same with fighters assigned to the carriers.

With 10 full fleets I even gave up on renaming my destroyers, because I have like 100+ of them.
Now I only name my personal ships, command carriers and battleships.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Drumma » Mon, 12. Jul 21, 22:59

The user interface is my prime complaint with X4 (I never played the previous versions). I'm going to have to look into Starbase since it's peaked the interest of the OP.

The UI took me about 80~ hours to finally get comfortable using. I'm guessing this is one of the prime reasons new players lose interest in the game. I'm over 1300 hours of game time now and its still a cumbersome system to use. But, I persevered and I still enjoy the game.

GL HF Commanders
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Clownmug » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 04:10

Oh, so what power does X get when Hijack Hornet is defeated?

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 09:54

@ Clownmug: Stay on topic please.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Mon, 12. Jul 21, 11:48
The day you'll start working on what fails in your game instead of adding small content to a broken base, I'll probably come back to it and change my mind.
That day will probably never come. And if it comes, it will be so late that you (and I) will be too interested in other games to pay attention to this one. Proof of what I say? This game was launched in 2018. Almost four years later and four updates later, what do we have? We have what you have already shown very well in your post, it is not necessary for me to provide more details. Do you want another test? We are in "beta" 4.10 how long has it been since 4.0 for this?

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Jeraal » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:22

Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
...

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.
Totally agree. X4 can be fun at times, but it will probably never reach anywhere near the level of enjoyment I had with X2 or X3. I bought Rebirth when the price was in the basement. It still feels like I paid too much.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by mr.WHO » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:39

The only thing that X3 is better is content amount - X3 has much more ships, sectors and missions.
However X3 was incrementally build across 20 years and several titles and literally like above hundred pathes.

Each and every X-series games is "work in progress" across several years after release and that is loved/hated in most of game reviewes on steam.
Even X-Rebirth became decent game comparing to it's 1.0 state.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 13. Jul 21, 15:01

Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
This game was launched in 2018. Almost four years later ...
Late in 2018. Late 2019 was one year. Late 2020 was two years. Late 2021 will be three years. Less than three years is hardly "almost four".


There are problems in simply saying that "UI is bad, broken, not functional". First of all, some of us do play the game. The game must have something that is functional and not broken.

The "UI is bad" has a different issue; it is a generic assessment. Sure, anything could technically be "better" somehow (unless that something is already "perfect"). However, that requires details. What exactly is difficult and more than one concrete proposal of "better" solutions for each case.
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