[Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

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Hijack_Hornet
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:49

I strongly agree on what is said in the post above as well.
And it also explains why i said that at its core X4 was management... because its the only logical way to play it. Not that it is a bad thing.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Thu, 15. Jul 21, 22:03

Pares wrote:
Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:16
I played a lot with X3 and its expansions, but X4 is on another level, even with it's shortcomings.
Yes, X4F could be one of the best games ever made, and without a doubt, the best 4X space simulator ever.

But it cannot be fully enjoyed or harnessed to its full potential. EgoSoft designed a "Ferrari", but to drive it, they give it to you with a bicycle handlebar, and not with 4 wheels, but with 3. It just can't work.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Rastuasi » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 02:25

My RTX 3070 is seeing 300+fps with max graphics on a 4500 hr game save, so something else is up with your system other than the game design.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by NightmareNight91 » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 08:05

Needs more borons...



And npc vs npc bailing to be reenabled

lol...my main gripes for now, priorities am i right?

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Web.Diz.
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Web.Diz. » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 14:59

Jeraal wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 14:22
Endealon wrote:
Tue, 13. Jul 21, 12:28
...

EgoSoft went the wrong way with X4 Rebirth, and from there, it will never be the great EgoSoft of the X3 again. That company no longer exists.
Totally agree. X4 can be fun at times, but it will probably never reach anywhere near the level of enjoyment I had with X2 or X3. I bought Rebirth when the price was in the basement. It still feels like I paid too much.
I liked X4 Rebirth, albeit a bit unusual. But I think Egosoft went the right way, But most of the problems are related to the construction of the process, so a lot of effort is spent on finalizing the game.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by eagledelta » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 18:38

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Thu, 15. Jul 21, 13:49
I strongly agree on what is said in the post above as well.
And it also explains why i said that at its core X4 was management... because its the only logical way to play it. Not that it is a bad thing.
I disagree with this statement. After spending significant time in X2, X3, XR and X4. Their games have always been built around a hybrid of Space Combat Simulation and Strategy/Management. Could they improve the management side of X4? Sure, problem is that there are already great games/franchises out there that have focused purely on the strategy and/or management aspects. Stellaris, Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld, etc.

The fact that the X series fills a niche of a niche gives it staying power. Very few games exist in this niche: Elite (including ED and the open-source Oolite), Avorion (for ships of corvette size and larger), and the X series are the most prominent ones I can think of.

Short of shrinking the universe (a la X: Rebirth), reducing the simulation (more like X3), or making the game a server-based multiplayer game, I'm not sure what they can do to completely improve the game. Of course, there are issues, but that's the case with any game. Many of your complaints are simply subjective in nature rather than purely objective.

Even trying to make an argument that charging the "price of a AAA game" is hollow as the price of a product is not based on the size of the studio or number of employees, but the amount of work that went into making the product. EgoSoft, and most other developers making games similar to the X series, are small studios with less than 100 employees. The only exceptions would be CCP (if you count EVE Online in the same vein as X Universe) and maybe the makers of Elite Dangerous. Simply put, they have picked the design direction they wanted to go with X4 and that was more focused on creating a player sandbox built on the "Foundations" of the X series rather than a specific story or goal.

It's not going to be for everyone, which is completely OK.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Pares » Mon, 19. Jul 21, 19:54

eagledelta wrote:
Mon, 19. Jul 21, 18:38
I disagree with this statement. After spending significant time in X2, X3, XR and X4. Their games have always been built around a hybrid of Space Combat Simulation and Strategy/Management. Could they improve the management side of X4? Sure, problem is that there are already great games/franchises out there that have focused purely on the strategy and/or management aspects. Stellaris, Sins of a Solar Empire, Homeworld, etc.
How is that a problem? If anything, those games are a great source of ideas to improve X4s late-game strategy/management aspect. If you give the ability for the player to basically create their own empire, with station building, ship building, fleet management, large-scale faction warfare and all, then you basically created the foundations of an RTS.

Now of course they can choose to leave it in its current state, which is basically an inevitable god mode as I described previously, or they can look at some mechanics from dedicated RTS games like the aforementioned Stellaris to make the RTS aspect of X4 an actually engaging and truly rewarding experience. I think the introduction of terraforming indicates their intention of improving late game, but I feel it's just a bandage on a gunshot wound: terraforming is for players already playing in god mode.

I'm not saying that reaching god mode is a bad thing (you can reach it in Stellaris too), but I feel like the journey towards it could be improved a lot.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Accuracy » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 00:29

Some posts here especially on the first page are plain ridiculous.

The OP has raised extremely valid points, especially the ones concerning mass ship behavior management.
OP looks like a software engineer and so am I, and no matter how I look at it, I don't understand how could such a crucial feature miss the pre-production process. The OP is obviously wondering the same thing, because it must have completely missed the initial requirements and seeing that it has still not been properly addressed, it is still not a requirement.
If you are making an empire management game, then it is absolutely crucial to make the part of the game where the player spends the most of his time in, as efficient and easy to read as possible (In this case the Map).
It makes the Egosoft team look like a bunch of amateur garage programmers that randomly slapped together a bunch of ideas, but never thought about how they will interact with the user. It is completely embarrassing from a software engineering perspective, because it is plain obvious that the game was missing a direction.

I don't understand some of these replies. I consider this feature to be a number 1 priority. Having mass management features in a management game is arguably more important than functional AI, or at least has the very same priority.
How could this have moved past their ability to add for the past 2 years (Even so if we consider that you literally require a few lines of code to fix that) is completely beyond me.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Slashman » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 05:56

Accuracy wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 00:29

I don't understand some of these replies. I consider this feature to be a number 1 priority. Having mass management features in a management game is arguably more important than functional AI, or at least has the very same priority.
How could this have moved past their ability to add for the past 2 years (Even so if we consider that you literally require a few lines of code to fix that) is completely beyond me.
And that's the reason that its called subjective opinion, because none of the way you play is actually a REQUIREMENT to play the game. The game has many arms and large empire management is only one of them. A player's empire could actually be much smaller or you could have none in the traditional sense.

It is extremely funny to me that you're saying to a developer: "Hey you missed this critical part of your empire management game". Their game is not confined to that label. It is NOT an RTS. The developers have said so on several occasions.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Endealon » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 11:53

Slashman wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 05:56
And that's the reason that its called subjective opinion, because none of the way you play is actually a REQUIREMENT to play the game. The game has many arms and large empire management is only one of them.
Therefore, if the "management of an empire" is one of the ways that the game proposes to be played, the developers should provide the necessary tools and dynamics to play that way, which does not happen today, with a UI / UX and interface management which is hell.

And the "subjectivity" argument is aging very fast in this forum. Everyone here and elsewhere is necessarily subjective, which does NOT mean that every subjective opinion loses its value merely because it is, or even that all subjective opinions have the same value when compared to others.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by CBJ » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 12:06

And once again, discuss the game, not the validity of each other's opinions.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 21:50

Accuracy wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 00:29
If you are making an empire management game, then it is absolutely crucial to make the part of the game where the player spends the most of his time in, as efficient and easy to read as possible (In this case the Map).
That sums up quite nicely my post. Though i added a bit later that :
- The main game focus might not be managment and its that case it make sense
- Though the rest of the game point toward that direction with a very light progression if skipping the managment which in turns make you driving a ship kinda pointless.

So as you said very well, the "issue" for me is not that "it's missing X feature", but that the games goes in various directions and instead of being very good in one or two things, it is kinda "meh" in lots of things.

Games with a promise of "you can do anything" tends to fall into a design pit because if you split your game focus on 8 completly separate ways to play it, then sure it will please a lot of people, but it also means that you divide your developpement power into 8 different games within the game.

Again, i'm mostly raising what i believe to be game design flows or at least time managment mistakes.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 20. Jul 21, 22:41

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 21:50
a very light progression if skipping the managment which in turns make you driving a ship kinda pointless.
Why would slow progression make piloting pointless?
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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Slashman » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 00:22

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 21:50
Games with a promise of "you can do anything" tends to fall into a design pit because if you split your game focus on 8 completly separate ways to play it, then sure it will please a lot of people, but it also means that you divide your developpement power into 8 different games within the game.

Again, i'm mostly raising what i believe to be game design flows or at least time managment mistakes.
This has always been the way of the X games. They occupy a very specific notch in the space flight genre.

"X4: FOUNDATIONS brings our most sophisticated universe SIMULATION ever. Fly every ship, EXPLORE space or manage an empire; TRADE, FIGHT, BUILD and THINK carefully, while you embark on an epic journey."

That is from the Steam page of X4 Foundations. It never says you can do anything.

The main point of the game is a universe simulation. That's defined by the developers as having as close to a real economy as your PC and design limitations allow. Raw materials are mined and then processed into refined goods and eventually ships.

Under all that it is a space flight sim.

Empire management is never presented as the only option you can pursue. It is one of several and it is NOT necessarily the most important. The size of your empire is controlled by YOU. If you are getting to a point where you cannot control all your ships and stations...you maybe need to think about how to best organize your empire.

I draw your attention to this from your quote: "it will please a lot of people" And it has. The fact that you are not one that is pleased is regrettable but they are not going to please everyone. They need to focus on all aspects of the game not just empire management and that's the correct way of going about it because you can bet that you'd have multiple people crying out about them neglecting one part of it to focus on just one thing...even more than we have now.

From the beginning of the game launch they have added functionality to the map and additional options. They have not just been sitting on it. But every change needs testing and it has to be weighted versus the development of the rest of the game.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Pares » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 13:33

Slashman wrote:
Wed, 21. Jul 21, 00:22
Empire management is never presented as the only option you can pursue. It is one of several and it is NOT necessarily the most important. The size of your empire is controlled by YOU. If you are getting to a point where you cannot control all your ships and stations...you maybe need to think about how to best organize your empire.
Sure, there are other things you can do besides deliberately building an empire, but all early-game activities lead to having to manage an empire too. Exploring (finding data vaults and crates), doing generic/war effort/story missions, trading and mining all generate massive amounts of credits and potentially gift you many ships. It is the inevitable evolution of the gameplay that you end up with either massive amounts of credits, assets, or both. And basically the only thing you can do with your credits is to aquire even more assets, which in case of stations, generate even more credits. And there's absolutely nothing to stop or challenge you along the way, only time and the deliberate restraints you put on yourself.

So I would argue that empire management is not really an option. It becomes an integral part of the game if you play enough.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Hijack_Hornet » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 20:53

Slashman wrote:
Wed, 21. Jul 21, 00:22
Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Tue, 20. Jul 21, 21:50
Games with a promise of "you can do anything" tends to fall into a design pit because if you split your game focus on 8 completly separate ways to play it, then sure it will please a lot of people, but it also means that you divide your developpement power into 8 different games within the game.

Again, i'm mostly raising what i believe to be game design flows or at least time managment mistakes.
This has always been the way of the X games. They occupy a very specific notch in the space flight genre.

"X4: FOUNDATIONS brings our most sophisticated universe SIMULATION ever. Fly every ship, EXPLORE space or manage an empire; TRADE, FIGHT, BUILD and THINK carefully, while you embark on an epic journey."
You are missunderstanding my message. I'm generalizing the statement to every game when it comes to game design. I didnt say that x4 goes the road of allowing you to do everything.
And yes it does and please a lot of people. I dont say that its a bad thing to go many roads, i'm saying that it also has drawbacks which has been discussed all along this thread.

But as you wrote in caps, it's SIMULATING the universe. Which is, you cant denied, not neccesary if you're never going to play the management aspect of the game.
If you simply want to be a pirate with a few other ships helping you out, how does the very sofisicated economy simulation helps you outside of taking a lot of computing power ?
Again, because i know i'll be quoted on this, i'm not saying that you should choose between the two options. I'm saying that from a game design point of view it's a dangerous choice as it will impact how each of this game mechanics will be limited. In this very specific case : the management player feel a bit sad because the ui doesnt meet its expectation, and the pirate player will feel troubled by the low framerate that simulating everything implies.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by oddible » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 21:02

While the OP makes some good points, there is a bit of myopic thinking in many of the posts in this thread - that is to be expected - the game is huge, has a lot going on, satisfies a LOT of different play styles, and it isn't any of our career to work for Egosoft so we're not investing so much time into making sure we've buttoned our arguments down properly. For instance saying that end-game is where Egosoft should be spending their time because of the scope and scale of this game may not align with what ES are seeing in telemetry. Those few of us who do have 1000 hours into the game are a fraction of the number of people who actually play the game. Maybe ES are seeing their sweet spot in the mid game. There are a lot of factors to consider and you can read through these forums and find as many opinions as there are players on what the most important thing to work on.

That said, I'll agree with a couple points but also mention the history. The UI design and information design of such a vast game are definitely challenged. ES has done an ok job with it. Could it be better? Absolutely. Is it dramatically better than previous versions? Most definitely. So I see their progress. They're a small company - do they have the time or resources for a full time design / dev team to dial it in in one perfect swoop?Naw, but I do see them improving it each pass. Would I love to see faster progress with the UI improvements, most definitely, but I recognize that they have a balance to achieve.

Now one thing I suspect we could all agree on is the absolutely terrible onboarding. I want to see Egosoft succeed - if they sell games and get massive stacks of cash, I get a better game. This game has onboarding that sits in good company with Aurora, Dwarf Fortress, and many of the Paradox games. It is a freaking disaster. The CoH expansion dramatically improved the onboarding but it is still a monkey in a clown car. Screw cosmetics of stations, screw UI and info design, screw late game 300+ ship empire management, give us good onboarding. And we, the 1000 hour gamers, none of us need onboarding. We know how to play, but better onboarding means more players, means less Steam returns, means more cash, means more developers, means more resources to focus on UI, cosmetics, and late game management.

Finally, the whole "why play" thing that happens late game when the money hose is pouring cash into your bank account faster than you can spend it. This happens in a lot of sims like this. Transport Fever 2 comes to mind. Then it is about optimization. But that gets boring. Working out economic balancing issues into late game is a HUGE endeavor. They need resources for that - likely it is a different game. X5?

Fix onboarding, fix some of the quirly UI which is a barrier of entry to new players, then use the new found resources to solve problems for us 1%ers with 1000+ hours into the game. That is my selfless take on things. Fortunately Egosoft don't listen to me and are making the game better for me too each release :)

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by oddible » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 21:06

Hijack_Hornet wrote:
Wed, 21. Jul 21, 20:53
Which is, you cant denied, not neccesary if you're never going to play the management aspect of the game.
If you simply want to be a pirate with a few other ships helping you out, how does the very sofisicated economy simulation helps you outside of taking a lot of computing power ?
Again, because i know i'll be quoted on this, i'm not saying that you should choose between the two options. I'm saying that from a game design point of view it's a dangerous choice as it will impact how each of this game mechanics will be limited. In this very specific case : the management player feel a bit sad because the ui doesnt meet its expectation, and the pirate player will feel troubled by the low framerate that simulating everything implies.

Except that this is literally their thing. This is literally the differentiator of this game. This IS the definition of an Egosoft X game. Does it work perfectly? No. Do they do it better than everyone else. Yup. Have they gotten a little better with each new game, YES (we don't talk about Rebirth).

If you want a flight sim, go play Elite. If you want a more arcadey game, go play Starpoint Gemini. If you want multiplayer 3rd person go play Eve. If you want a dogfight grind with more realistic interiors, go play Star Citizen. The player has options. X games are what they are. The solution isn't to deny their identity because it isn't done perfectly, it is to keep striving for better and leveraging a intelligent and passionate and diverse community to keep things moving in the right direction. (and build a modding engine so people can mod out or make easier the things they don't like).

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by Slashman » Wed, 21. Jul 21, 22:00

oddible wrote:
Wed, 21. Jul 21, 21:06

If you want a flight sim, go play Elite. If you want a more arcadey game, go play Starpoint Gemini. If you want multiplayer 3rd person go play Eve. If you want a dogfight grind with more realistic interiors, go play Star Citizen. The player has options. X games are what they are. The solution isn't to deny their identity because it isn't done perfectly, it is to keep striving for better and leveraging a intelligent and passionate and diverse community to keep things moving in the right direction. (and build a modding engine so people can mod out or make easier the things they don't like).
This is well said. I can definitely see an improvement from X3 in the interface and handling of many things UI related. Its not perfect but progress has been made. I don't miss having to memorize a gazillion hot keys and key combinations. I do accept that the interface will not be perfect for every situation, but by and large it is workable and even decent for most of the game.

And even now...things get added like mass crew management that were not there before.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: [Feedback] My honest opinion on X4 and why i'm quitting it

Post by delilah wild » Thu, 22. Jul 21, 01:33

Indeed, the UI including map, lists, tabs, fonts, colours, symbols are atrocious. A barrier to new player entry and a stain on an otherwise promising game.

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