Why are defense stations so toothless? [Solved]

[apricotslice]

Why are defense stations so toothless?

I've been building bigger and better defense stations each time I start a new game. I finally understood missiles and put them on the stations.

Both guns and missiles are set to Attack All Enemies. And I'm talking stations with thousands of missiles on them. And hundreds of heavy guns. (My current design has 886 disc and bridge modules in it.)

And yet, the stations never fire.

I've watched all manor of red ships just breeze past as if the station was just scrap metal.

I'm using long range missiles, but as far as I can see while on the map, none get fired.

Am I missing something for turning these stations on?
Or are they just useless because they can't detect an enemy in sufficient time to actually fire on it?
Were they just designed to defend themselves?

I want stations to defend a gate, and not let anything red in. Is that beyond what defense stations can do?

[Alan Phipps]

I don't know if these will address your Defence Station issues but Bernd's preview post on 4.10 includes addressing some turret setting and missile launch behaviours. Those did seem more directed at ship combat, but we can but hope and try it when it's out.

Slightly off the original topic, I have found that combat drones on stations are rather good triggers for initiating active combat close to my stations which seems to wake up all the other static station defences too.

[Dreez]

They're not. A simple but properly built defense station can easily handle most attacks.
I built a defense station i call "Gatekeeper" which is only 7x7 components with 12 discs
and 16 bridges all loaded with L-plasma and beams, 30 defense and 30 repair drones.

They keep Xenon-gates clear of any intruders without issues.

Also... having missile launchers on a defense platform would be a no no since
they'd run out of missile very very fast and you'd be stuck constantly feeding it missiles.

Just use turrets on those.

[apricotslice]

They're not. A simple but properly built defense station can easily handle most attacks.
I built a defense station i call "Gatekeeper" which is only 7x7 components with 8 discs
and 16 bridges all loaded with L-plasma and beams, 30 defense and 30 repair drones.

They keep Xenon-gates clear of any intruders without issues.

How?

Mine sit there and allow every Xenon through without a shot. Not seen a K or I yet though.

What are you doing to get yours to fire?

[apricotslice]

Slightly off the original topic, I have found that combat drones on stations are rather good triggers for initiating active combat close to my stations which seems to wake up all the other static station defences too.

I'm worried about frame rates using lots of drones.

I'll give it a try though.

ETA: Ugg. No storage, so no components, so no drones. No dock, so no delivery to the non-resistant storage. Not going to be tested any time soon then.

[Alan Phipps]

Ah, if you have gone for heavy weapon turrets (eg plasma) and are only seeing fast fighters passing by then they probably will not engage them with their slow bullets. The dev confirmed that turrets calculate their chance of actually hitting a target and don't even try if it is very low.

[apricotslice]

Ah, if you have gone for heavy weapon turrets (eg plasma) and are only seeing fast fighters passing by then they probably will not engage them with their slow bullets. The dev confirmed that turrets calculate their chance of actually hitting a target and don't even try if it is very low.

How about blanket fire?

If the station has enough of the guns, even if most of them miss, some of them should.

I don't do defense stations with a 4 to 10 discs or bridges. I do them with several hundred. That sort of firepower should destroy anything regardless of how small it is.

The 'dev' in this case obviously hasn't thought beyond the very pathetic defense stations put into the game by the factions.

And isn't thinking about how to deny Xenon access through a gate. Seems to be a common complaint, given what I've read trying to find an answer to this.

[Raptor34]

Mobile fleets work way better for gate defense.
I only use defense stations for flavoring.
A carrier with 60-100 fighters works way better and can be built way faster.

Personally though I'm hoping we get some kind of carrier defense module for stations eventually, something that auto deploy and repairs fighters.

[Alan Phipps]

"How about blanket fire?" Well currently each turret (when calculating its hit chance) has no way of knowing that hundreds of other turrets are nearby and doing the same thing.

That would require another level of coding in the game that is not currently there. I would suspect that, if present, it would make combat framerates around big stations with many turrets even worse than the same station having combat drones.

[apricotslice]

"How about blanket fire?" Well currently each turret (when calculating its hit chance) has no way of knowing that hundreds of other turrets are nearby and doing the same thing.

That would require another level of coding in the game that is not currently there. I would suspect that, if present, it would make combat framerates around big stations with many turrets even worse than the same station having combat drones.

I really don't understand that.

If that's the effect, then why have the turrets in the first place?

Why not restrict each module to a single turret? Why put 8 on a disc, and 6 discs on a station, if the effect of them all firing at once is going to be detrimental to the game?

Anyway, no-one in their right mind is in a system where such a station would be firing. So it should all be OOS calculations. And that should have been relatively simple to code.

The thing about OOS is drones are still a framerate hog on map viewing. Guns firing is not. [I spend 95% of my time in the map or one of the station or ship screens.]

I guess it comes down to station modules with turrets on them was something great to do, but was never thought out properly. Nothing unusual there.

[Alan Phipps]

If you are talking OOS/low attention then turrets and missiles don't really let rip; combat is then based more on per-tick calculations based on attack and defence strengths - unless you are remotely watching and bringing things back into high attention. I was indeed talking about IS/high attention combat.

[Dreez]

Here is my defense station that i call "Gatekeeper" because it's a fitting word and i like it.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0889EF680/

As you can see there are 4 crosses, those connects to 4 small Split containers underneath for materials for the drones,
and i picked 4 because, if by some miracle, Xenon succeed in destroying one... i got more than enough space left.

These are placed close infront of one gate or close up between 2 gates. Sofar haven't had a single Xenon cap live long.
Paranid L-plasma and argon M-lasers. I'm considering switching the blueprint loadout to argon M-flak .

[BelatedHero]

Here is my defense station that i call "Gatekeeper" because it's a fitting word and i like it.
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 0889EF680/

As you can see there are 4 crosses, those connects to 4 small Split containers underneath for materials for the drones,
and i picked 4 because, if by some miracle, Xenon succeed in destroying one... i got more than enough space left.

These are placed close infront of one gate or close up between 2 gates. Sofar haven't had a single Xenon cap live long.
Paranid L-plasma and argon M-lasers. I'm considering switching the blueprint loadout to argon M-flak .

I like how you built in closer to the argon admin center to fill in the empty space. very compact.

[grapedog]

I use ARG L plasma and ARG M flak, and that works very well. The occasional fast ship slips through, or the rare transport gets through.... but the majority go down.

One thing I would ask, are you abusing plot build rules. Like how to build way outside your own plot boundaries?

[apricotslice]

I use ARG L plasma and ARG M flak, and that works very well. The occasional fast ship slips through, or the rare transport gets through.... but the majority go down.

How? Stations are coded to only fire on L and XL ships, and ignore the rest unless actually attacking the station.

So if your stations are shooting at everything, you have to be doing something non-standard.

One thing I would ask, are you abusing plot build rules. Like how to build way outside your own plot boundaries?

As far as I know, you can't.

You shouldn't need to. Fitting 2000 modules inside a 20x20x20 is easy, and once you pass that threshold, your computer starts having a hard time rendering it on the build screen (depending on your rig.)

The only way I can think of doing that would be by editing saved builds, say by merging 2 builds into 1. But to do that, everything in the second build has to have its index numbers and coordinates altered. That's a job I'm hoping someone builds an automation for, because its way too much work for me.

[grapedog]

I use ARG L plasma and ARG M flak, and that works very well. The occasional fast ship slips through, or the rare transport gets through.... but the majority go down.

How? Stations are coded to only fire on L and XL ships, and ignore the rest unless actually attacking the station.

So if your stations are shooting at everything, you have to be doing something non-standard.

One thing I would ask, are you abusing plot build rules. Like how to build way outside your own plot boundaries?

As far as I know, you can't.

You shouldn't need to. Fitting 2000 modules inside a 20x20x20 is easy, and once you pass that threshold, your computer starts having a hard time rendering it on the build screen (depending on your rig.)

The only way I can think of doing that would be by editing saved builds, say by merging 2 builds into 1. But to do that, everything in the second build has to have its index numbers and coordinates altered. That's a job I'm hoping someone builds an automation for, because its way too much work for me.

Imma do a super simple explanation. Attach piece A to B. Now attach piece B to C. Now move C all the way to the edge of the plot.... as long as C stays in the plot, A and B can be outside the boundaries.

Now imagine you buy a plot just below and in front of a gate. Now you build your defense station in the planner. Every station has a single piece that everything else is attached to, and when you move it, you move the whole station. Make sure that piece has an open connection spot. Put a general 4 connector on the plot. Move your station over to connect to it. The connector now moves the whole station. Now drop some 2x or 3x vertical connectors down in the plot. Attach the station connector to a vettical piece. Attach that vertical piece to another vertucal piece. So on and so forth. Now you can place a defensive station much much closer to the gate. Then just delete the one original connector, and drag the extensions off the plot to clean up the look.

And small defense stations can work very well, no need to go overboard. Like SPL for example, can create a small defense ring with maybe 5 or 6 defensive Y connectors and about the same amount of bridge connectors. A station like this, when enemies are close, mostly fully filled out, will murders Is, Ks, tokyos, asgards... and flaks will take out the Ms and S ships easily too.

[apricotslice]

Imma do a super simple explanation. Attach piece A to B. Now attach piece B to C. Now move C all the way to the edge of the plot.... as long as C stays in the plot, A and B can be outside the boundaries.

Now imagine you buy a plot just below and in front of a gate. Now you build your defense station in the planner. Every station has a single piece that everything else is attached to, and when you move it, you move the whole station. Make sure that piece has an open connection spot. Put a general 4 connector on the plot. Move your station over to connect to it. The connector now moves the whole station. Now drop some 2x or 3x vertical connectors down in the plot. Attach the station connector to a vettical piece. Attach that vertical piece to another vertucal piece. So on and so forth. Now you can place a defensive station much much closer to the gate.

Hooley Dooley !!!

That I need to try on a different idea.

And small defense stations can work very well, no need to go overboard. Like SPL for example, can create a small defense ring with maybe 5 or 6 defensive Y connectors and about the same amount of bridge connectors. A station like this, mostly fully filled out, will murders Is, Ks, tokyos, asgards...

I'm not concerned with XL and L ships.

I want the stations destroying everything which is red in range. That is mainly s and m sizes.

[grapedog]

The station attacks everything, but some ships do slip through. A few lasers scattered around to snag any ships in travel drive might help. As long as i get the vast majority, i don't worry about the rare ship that survives.

[apricotslice]

The station attacks everything, but some ships do slip through. A few lasers scattered around to snag any ships in travel drive might help. As long as i get the vast majority, i don't worry about the rare ship that survives.

So what are you doing different to me?

Vanilla stations only attack L and XL ships if red. They ignore everything else.

If you're using mods, can you PM me a list of them? (Can't discuss that here.)

[Kajar]

Stations do very well attack all targets. Its just that usually the S ships are speeding through the gate at max travel speed and just fly past the station long before it has time to react. Also the M turrets have a rather short range and the targets have to get very close in order to get hit.

Assigning a few cheaper interceptors to the station helps with catching a target and, well, intercepting it, pulling it out of travel drive and giving time for the station to acquire the target and eventually blap it out of existence.

At this point i dont even bother with defence stations though. Just not cost effective and they cant move. Instead i just place some 5 destroyers in front of the gate together with a dozen or two of interceptors. They work extremely well.