Why are defense stations so toothless? [Solved]

[grapedog]

I use ARG L plasma and ARG M flak, and that works very well. The occasional fast ship slips through, or the rare transport gets through.... but the majority go down.

How? Stations are coded to only fire on L and XL ships, and ignore the rest unless actually attacking the station.

So if your stations are shooting at everything, you have to be doing something non-standard.

One thing I would ask, are you abusing plot build rules. Like how to build way outside your own plot boundaries?

As far as I know, you can't.

You shouldn't need to. Fitting 2000 modules inside a 20x20x20 is easy, and once you pass that threshold, your computer starts having a hard time rendering it on the build screen (depending on your rig.)

The only way I can think of doing that would be by editing saved builds, say by merging 2 builds into 1. But to do that, everything in the second build has to have its index numbers and coordinates altered. That's a job I'm hoping someone builds an automation for, because its way too much work for me.

Imma do a super simple explanation. Attach piece A to B. Now attach piece B to C. Now move C all the way to the edge of the plot.... as long as C stays in the plot, A and B can be outside the boundaries.

Now imagine you buy a plot just below and in front of a gate. Now you build your defense station in the planner. Every station has a single piece that everything else is attached to, and when you move it, you move the whole station. Make sure that piece has an open connection spot. Put a general 4 connector on the plot. Move your station over to connect to it. The connector now moves the whole station. Now drop some 2x or 3x vertical connectors down in the plot. Attach the station connector to a vettical piece. Attach that vertical piece to another vertucal piece. So on and so forth. Now you can place a defensive station much much closer to the gate. Then just delete the one original connector, and drag the extensions off the plot to clean up the look.

And small defense stations can work very well, no need to go overboard. Like SPL for example, can create a small defense ring with maybe 5 or 6 defensive Y connectors and about the same amount of bridge connectors. A station like this, when enemies are close, mostly fully filled out, will murders Is, Ks, tokyos, asgards... and flaks will take out the Ms and S ships easily too.

[apricotslice]

Imma do a super simple explanation. Attach piece A to B. Now attach piece B to C. Now move C all the way to the edge of the plot.... as long as C stays in the plot, A and B can be outside the boundaries.

Now imagine you buy a plot just below and in front of a gate. Now you build your defense station in the planner. Every station has a single piece that everything else is attached to, and when you move it, you move the whole station. Make sure that piece has an open connection spot. Put a general 4 connector on the plot. Move your station over to connect to it. The connector now moves the whole station. Now drop some 2x or 3x vertical connectors down in the plot. Attach the station connector to a vettical piece. Attach that vertical piece to another vertucal piece. So on and so forth. Now you can place a defensive station much much closer to the gate.

Hooley Dooley !!!

That I need to try on a different idea.

And small defense stations can work very well, no need to go overboard. Like SPL for example, can create a small defense ring with maybe 5 or 6 defensive Y connectors and about the same amount of bridge connectors. A station like this, mostly fully filled out, will murders Is, Ks, tokyos, asgards...

I'm not concerned with XL and L ships.

I want the stations destroying everything which is red in range. That is mainly s and m sizes.

[grapedog]

The station attacks everything, but some ships do slip through. A few lasers scattered around to snag any ships in travel drive might help. As long as i get the vast majority, i don't worry about the rare ship that survives.

[apricotslice]

The station attacks everything, but some ships do slip through. A few lasers scattered around to snag any ships in travel drive might help. As long as i get the vast majority, i don't worry about the rare ship that survives.

So what are you doing different to me?

Vanilla stations only attack L and XL ships if red. They ignore everything else.

If you're using mods, can you PM me a list of them? (Can't discuss that here.)

[Kajar]

Stations do very well attack all targets. Its just that usually the S ships are speeding through the gate at max travel speed and just fly past the station long before it has time to react. Also the M turrets have a rather short range and the targets have to get very close in order to get hit.

Assigning a few cheaper interceptors to the station helps with catching a target and, well, intercepting it, pulling it out of travel drive and giving time for the station to acquire the target and eventually blap it out of existence.

At this point i dont even bother with defence stations though. Just not cost effective and they cant move. Instead i just place some 5 destroyers in front of the gate together with a dozen or two of interceptors. They work extremely well.

[apricotslice]

Update:

I finally was able to get a copy of the AI mod, and extract the station code changes. They work in v4 just fine.

BUT, if your station has more than a half dozen sets of turrets, you must be OOS before they start firing, or you get a slideshow, and are effectively trapped IS because even the map is a slideshow.

The reason why stations let all the s and m ships go by is they are coded to do so. It can be changed, but if you do, you never want to go into those sectors you have defense stations in again. Especially never if they are actively firing at anything.

[GCU Grey Area]

The reason why stations let all the s and m ships go by is they are coded to do so.

Not sure that's accurate. Doesn't match my experience of the game. This, for example, is the end result of a Xenon attack on a set of defence stations I built for the Argons during one of my Split games: https://www.dropbox.com/s/txu8281txzoj2 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Might be the loadout that makes the difference. Tend to give such stations a mixed loadout which will be effective against all sizes of enemy ships, not just capitals. This was my standard loadout for defence stations in that particular game: https://www.dropbox.com/s/oqpn0vbjegn4a ... 1.jpg?dl=0

[apricotslice]

There's a difference between a station being attacked, and one which isn't, and enemy ships are just going past.

Once attacked, the code is different. They shoot at everything.

But if the station isn't actually shot at and hit, the code will only shoot at L and XL enemy.

So all the s and m ships just passing by get a free pass unless they hit the station.

[GCU Grey Area]

There's a difference between a station being attacked, and one which isn't, and enemy ships are just going past.

Once attacked, the code is different. They shoot at everything.

But if the station isn't actually shot at and hit, the code will only shoot at L and XL enemy.

So all the s and m ships just passing by get a free pass unless they hit the station.

Still not convinced. Those defence platforms were taking out Xenon S & M ships long before those ships were in range to shoot at the station. For reference it's about 10km between the gate & the closest defence module in the screenshot in my previous post. Wreck positions indicate only a handful of the fighters got close enough to shoot (max range for a XEN S Impulse Projector = 3.6km). Consequently those defence platforms were definitely shooting first, rather than waiting to respond to an attack.

[apricotslice]

There's a difference between a station being attacked, and one which isn't, and enemy ships are just going past.

Once attacked, the code is different. They shoot at everything.

But if the station isn't actually shot at and hit, the code will only shoot at L and XL enemy.

So all the s and m ships just passing by get a free pass unless they hit the station.

Still not convinced. Those defence platforms were taking out Xenon S & M ships long before those ships were in range to shoot at the station. For reference it's about 10km between the gate & the closest defence module in the screenshot in my previous post. Wreck positions indicate only a handful of the fighters got close enough to shoot (max range for a XEN S Impulse Projector = 3.6km). Consequently those defence platforms were definitely shooting first, rather than waiting to respond to an attack.

The question then becomes, what mods are you running?

Or alternative, were you running drones or something else4 which was establishing an attack first?

[GCU Grey Area]

The question then becomes, what mods are you running?

Not using any mods at all.

Or alternative, were you running drones or something else4 which was establishing an attack first?

Don't know about drones. Those defence platforms were being run by the Argons - can't know for absolute certainty whether or not drones were involved in the battle in that screenshot.

However, have loaded my final archive save for that game, teleported to a ship I kept on one of the stations for loot collection, & watched a few Xenon fighters being obliterated by station turrets without them needing to attack the station first. In some cases they were engaged by an Argon patrol near to the gate. If any of those came close enough to one of the defence stations they were taken out by turret fire, even though the station was not it's target & it was not firing upon the station. Station drones were also not involved in any of the engagements I observed - mostly they were over far too fast for drones even to launch, let alone fly to the target.

Interestingly seems the NPC factions can change the loadout of defence platforms after you hand them over - one of them had replaced it's L turrets (all 320 of them) with L Beams! Needless to say any Xenon fighter which got too close to that one didn't last long at all. It was even taking out Xenon fighters which emerged from the gate in travel mode & were obviously attempting to fly past the station, rather than attack.

[apricotslice]

Those defence platforms were being run by the Argons

This is not what the discussion is about.

I'm only talking about PLAYER owned stations.

[GCU Grey Area]

Those defence platforms were being run by the Argons

This is not what the discussion is about.

I'm only talking about PLAYER owned stations.

Have seen the same thing with my own stations, just didn't have a convenient screenshot of the outcome of a battle involving one of mine showing the extent of the debris field. There was also very little difference (if any) that I could observe between the behaviour of turrets during construction of those defence platforms & after they'd been handed over - I always kept 1 mission critical module for last in the build order, so I'd retain control over the building site for as long as possible.

[paraskous]

Slightly off the original topic, I have found that combat drones on stations are rather good triggers for initiating active combat close to my stations which seems to wake up all the other static station defences too.

I'm worried about frame rates using lots of drones.

I'll give it a try though.

ETA: Ugg. No storage, so no components, so no drones. No dock, so no delivery to the non-resistant storage. Not going to be tested any time soon then.

How do you store the missiles then?

[apricotslice]

How do you store the missiles then?

Each disc and bridge has it's own missile storage.

You just need to be able to deliver them.

Drones though need storage, for the components, because they are made on the station, not delivered to the station.

If you're smart, and you prefer missiles to guns, you build a defense station which makes its own missiles. You just deliver the components. Then it need storage.

[Raptor34]

Have you tried just letting the manager source their own drones?
I remember reading that done that way you get some magic storage for the components. Could be wrong though.

[apricotslice]

Have you tried just letting the manager source their own drones?
I remember reading that done that way you get some magic storage for the components. Could be wrong though.

That can work if you have the storage space for the components and give the station some credits.

But if the station is somewhere out of range of one of the components, the drones may never be made.

[GCU Grey Area]

Drones though need storage, for the components, because they are made on the station, not delivered to the station.

Originally thought so too. However discovered in my current game, while building mining stations which initially only had solid & liquid storage, that this is not the case. First iteration of those stations looked like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2eqbwir4t83tl ... 1.jpg?dl=0. As soon as I configured the station's cargo drones the manager put up trade offers for the parts & they were delivered despite the lack of container storage. Think missiles are handled the same way - missile components, smart chips, etc are delivered to the station & turned into missiles on site (which are then stored inside the launchers).

[grapedog]

My defense stations shoot at all enemies, including S and M ships, including those that don't engage my station at all. I can be away from the station or there in person, and if an S/M ship comes cruising through, it gets lit up by my flak turrets.

Ive seen it happen hundreds of times, IS and OOS.