Is fighting harder ?

[Scoob]

Hmm Combat in X4 is still very easy. Its really just a matter of abusing travel drive hijinks that the AI can't do and you'll win every time.

Terran combat engine on S and M ships starts up immediately for a huge speed boost and gives you breathing room to regen shield. It also takes very little shield for boosting with it. It feels like God mode having those engines. I can't ever go back to CW engines.

In vanilla things are pretty easy and there are certainly new tricks available to the player - but not AI - in X4. This is part of the reason why I run a modified game these days, it makes things a bit tougher / move even between player and AI. Increasing bullet speeds alone makes a massive difference and the AI doesn't miss constantly with fast, anti-fighter weapons any more. Makes appropriately equipped fighters much more dangerous vs. lighter targets potentially. For example, it's not possible for me in the starting Elite to capture a Minotaur Raider like I can in vanilla, the Corvette is just too tough with shields that recharge faster than my DPS, and turrets that will hit me due to better shot speed. The mods I use make the speed differential between classes much more pronounced also, meaning the small, light ship usually has the run away option. I prefer this balance, which is why mods are great

Scoob.

[KextV8]

I prefer this balance, which is why mods are great

Yeah, I love it when devs support modding. Everyone's got their own idea of how a game would be best and mods let us get what we want.

[Tamina]

First of all, the Nodan is not a fighter. It is super big aka really easy to hit and has low shield & hull on top of that. Only two weapons are no good either on the offensive side of things. In fact this ship has no special purpose at all.

As a starting fighter I would recommend
- (Argon) Eclipse, Heavy Fighter: Lots of shield and hull, 4 weapons, a bit slow but a survivalist. Perfect for starters.
- (HOP) Ares, Heavy Fighter: Lots of shield and hull, 4 weapons, a bit slow but a survivalist. Perfect for starters.
- (Split DLC) Chimera, Heavy Fighter: Lots of hull, extremly fast, 5 weapons. This ship is a supreme dogfighter.

Katana (Call of Humanity DLC) > Dragon Raider (Split Vendetta DLC) > Nemesis Vanguard ~= Kuraokami (Call of Humanity DLC)

I kind of disagree with that. For someone who struggles with a fighter already, should definitly not use a Dragon. This ship is a glass cannon if I ever saw one. And due to its horrendous turn rate it gets easily crushed by more than two enemies. Never fly alone with this baby.

I would like to add the Teladi Peregrine (Vanguard) to that list
- Highest shield capacity of all M ships
- 4 well aligned turrets, 2 front weapons
- All other stats are mediocre but it also has no real downsides
Plus: It is the cheapest of them all on paper but of course as always in X4: Supply and Demand

[KextV8]

First of all, the Nodan is not a fighter.

It is absolutely a fighter. It has speed, maneuverability and acceleration on par with other light fighters, hull on par with other light fighters, shield on par with other light fighters, and guns on par with other light fighters. It is on paper superior to the Xenon M(and many other fighters) pretty much.

Though, where it really shines IMO is as a multirole. I use them a lot as couriers and fighters on Fleet Support ships, and stations. Same with the Moreya.

[Tamina]

And then again, it is humongous. Bigger than any heavy fighter from every angle, with stats and weaponry of a light fighter at best. A Perseus has slightly lower shield and hull, 2 guns as well but is faster and much smaller.

[Raptor34]

Nodan is a personal taxi. Comfy ship rather than the super cramped cockpits of most others.
And it looks nice too. Wish it had more shields though, but its speed is decent.

[Scoob]

Snagging an SCA Falcon is a pretty good first step, very doable in any of the starting ships with the starting weapons in vanilla. It's a regular fighter, nothing particularly special about it, but it grants additional survivability when going against Corvettes and the like. I've successfully neutered Capital Ships - Destroyers - with one of these in vanilla. Plus it makes a good ship for capturing other Fighters.

Scoob.

[KextV8]

And then again, it is humongous. Bigger than any heavy fighter from every angle

It is slightly larger than most heavy fighters, but it's also IMO the prettiest S ship in the entire game. So I give that one flaw a pass

[Nort The Fragrent]

I tried fighting in X3, and was constantly killed every time. So gave up.
That was way back.
I tried for a very short while at the beginning of X4, and soon realised I am completely hopeless at it.
I find it so, so boring ! As the one you want to shoot at, is all ways behind ! With perhaps a quick glimpse, as it flashes passed, and boom. Game over. This constant inevitable end, soon makes me realise, it is not worth the bother, as the game is over every time.

I now play with no Guns, no fighting, no war’s.

So much better !

[dtpsprt]

Two main differences in fighting between X games and X4:

1) The shields take a long time to start regenerating for M and S ships in X4 which makes the one against 2-3-4 ships very difficult on it's own.

2) The ships even though damaged to their 0.003% of hull integrity keep on running as fast, manoeuvre as good and hit as hard as with no damage whatsoever in X4 (not sure which was the "genius" behind such mechanic) resulting in the (most obvious) conclusion that once you start with one of them you'd better finish it making even more difficult fighting alone against multiple ships.

All in all while the X games were space simulations X4 is a managerial/economic simulation with lot of randomness, just like Monopoly, only it is not turn based so you'd better either get/capture one ship (preferably M) with lots of turrets, shields and frontal guns or pick your fights with real modesty and caution.

[EGO_Aut]

1. never dogfight +3, kite them and wait for shield regen
2. if you have to run do it early enough
3. short boost (better avoid it) then take combat engines travel speed.
4. always take the fastest guns
5. use strafe/roll
6. fast ships are better then slow ones

[Trevelvis]

Snagging an SCA Falcon is a pretty good first step, very doable in any of the starting ships with the starting weapons in vanilla. It's a regular fighter, nothing particularly special about it, but it grants additional survivability when going against Corvettes and the like. I've successfully neutered Capital Ships - Destroyers - with one of these in vanilla. Plus it makes a good ship for capturing other Fighters.

Scoob.

If fighting is my worse quality in the game capturing will be next to impossible for me, I love trading and station building but need to fight in the quest that gives you a station but apart from that I won’t be fighting or capturing much, I used Nova in earlier games for its extra shield but move on to Odi later in game .

[Imperial Good]

I kind of disagree with that. For someone who struggles with a fighter already, should definitly not use a Dragon. This ship is a glass cannon if I ever saw one. And due to its horrendous turn rate it gets easily crushed by more than two enemies. Never fly alone with this baby.

The ship is so fast it can always get away. 1.3 KM/sec fight speed (with equipment mods installed, which should always be the case for the player flown ships) is similar to the boost speed of many of the S ships you fight. It also has such fire power that if you manage to get an isolated target you can nuke it before it can even respond. For example a Xenon P, some of the toughest M ships in X4, dies near instantly.

Even with 1 M shield it is still a lot tougher than S ships, especially at the speed it flies at.

- Highest shield capacity of all M ships

It is tied with all base game frigates, which also have 3 M shield generators. Hard to recommend it over a Gorgon which is faster, has a S pad, still 3 shields, better hull and same 2 weapon slots. Especially since you can get a Gorgon for free.

If you run into a small group of xenon, you can do fine in a Dragon Raider, but in any kind of big battle, your dragon raider is gonna get shredded. The AI pays a lot of attention to the player... and a dragon raider ain't gonna do much when you have a small swarm chasing after you, while in a big battle. You can outrun em sure, but if you try strafing them, and there are more than 5 or 6 enemies all chasing you constantly, you'll be in a world of hurt. Any of the other ships you will do fine in, and can participate quite well in big battles.

My video showed otherwise. Key in such fights is to never be the only target as AI will focus on ships and especially those that last hit them (so Raptor and other turret filled ships work well as distractions). Throw in a few L destroyers with a lot of turrets to distract, then go to town killing the Xenon 1 by 1. If there are any sort of AI war ships you are usually fine. Nemesis is nowhere near as effective due to how painfully slow that ship is, and having only 5/6 of the burst damage. In worst case, just go straight and be out of there thanks to its speed.

The Nemesis might be the "slowest" of the good M class ships... but with a basic PAR Mk3 Combat engine, you're still speeding along at over 400kms, which is faster than most ships in the game.

It does not go even 1 km/s. It goes more like 400 m/s which is painfully slow compared with the 1,300 m/s (1.3 km/sec) a Dragon Raider can reach. Hence why the Dragon Raider is (was) so good. Of course the Katana is even faster, which is why it is undeniably superior to the Dragon Raider as you can even throw on TER combat engines on it and still go fast with high end acceleration and 2 shields.

Speed is great, but once you're faster than most every other ship... more speed on top of that is pretty unhelpful when you're giving up a LOT of toughness.

As long as you are not the centre of attention, you only need to fight 1-2 ships at a time. And that is where speed rules. Even if your shields are shot out you will be long gone before you are destroyed due to how fast you are. Most shots inherently miss you due to how fast you are.

[Tamina]

- Highest shield capacity of all M ships

It is tied with all base game frigates, which also have 3 M shield generators. Hard to recommend it over a Gorgon which is faster, has a S pad, still 3 shields, better hull and same 2 weapon slots. Especially since you can get a Gorgon for free.

Same problem as with the Nodan. Frigates have a larger area projection, they are literally a moving box. The streamlined shape of a Peregrine is harder to hit, especially when facing the enemy directly but same shield as the big boys.
I am currently flying a Gorgon and the turrets have sub optimal alignement. All on one side and the rear turrets have troubles targeting anything. A peregrine has near 360° turret protection. The rear is unprotected though.

Do you really consider an S pad that advantageous? It can only transport one S ship, the AI wastes way too much time by making all subordinates land every time before it even moves a couple of kilometers. Combat drone support is pretty nice but then again, combat drones don't work currently and if they do, the AI just flies away before all drones have landed or dies waiting for them to finally manage to land, and the player has to wait each time likewise But besides that, what purpose does it have? It can't even repair them.

Like I get it, for a player ship it is similar to a big weaponized yacht with a helipad, a nice big bridge, personal walking around and all. Gunboats are inferior in every aspect when it comes to this.
And I can't argue with a free Gorgon

[Imperial Good]

Do you really consider an S pad that advantageous? It can only transport one S ship, the AI wastes way too much time by making all subordinates land every time before it even moves a couple of kilometers. Combat drone support is pretty nice but then again, combat drones don't work currently and if they do, the AI just flies away before all drones have landed or dies waiting for them to finally manage to land, and the player has to wait each time likewise But besides that, what purpose does it have? It can't even repair them.

I have to mention it because a large group of people, those that liked flying the Cobra, used it as one of their main arguments. Personally I would never fly any of such ships outside of challenge runs since the Katana is just so much better than all of them, despite its worse turning. The Falx can be pretty fun to fly since despite being a frigate it behaves more like a S ship with ludicrous acceleration (tap boost and you are at max boost speed), but again its size, low speed and lower damage generally makes it a less good Katana for just shooting up S and M ships.

[grapedog]

If you run into a small group of xenon, you can do fine in a Dragon Raider, but in any kind of big battle, your dragon raider is gonna get shredded. The AI pays a lot of attention to the player... and a dragon raider ain't gonna do much when you have a small swarm chasing after you, while in a big battle. You can outrun em sure, but if you try strafing them, and there are more than 5 or 6 enemies all chasing you constantly, you'll be in a world of hurt. Any of the other ships you will do fine in, and can participate quite well in big battles.

My video showed otherwise. Key in such fights is to never be the only target as AI will focus on ships and especially those that last hit them (so Raptor and other turret filled ships work well as distractions). Throw in a few L destroyers with a lot of turrets to distract, then go to town killing the Xenon 1 by 1. If there are any sort of AI war ships you are usually fine. Nemesis is nowhere near as effective due to how painfully slow that ship is, and having only 5/6 of the burst damage. In worst case, just go straight and be out of there thanks to its speed.

The Nemesis might be the "slowest" of the good M class ships... but with a basic PAR Mk3 Combat engine, you're still speeding along at over 400kms, which is faster than most ships in the game.

It does not go even 1 km/s. It goes more like 400 m/s which is painfully slow compared with the 1,300 m/s (1.3 km/sec) a Dragon Raider can reach. Hence why the Dragon Raider is (was) so good. Of course the Katana is even faster, which is why it is undeniably superior to the Dragon Raider as you can even throw on TER combat engines on it and still go fast with high end acceleration and 2 shields.

Speed is great, but once you're faster than most every other ship... more speed on top of that is pretty unhelpful when you're giving up a LOT of toughness.

As long as you are not the centre of attention, you only need to fight 1-2 ships at a time. And that is where speed rules. Even if your shields are shot out you will be long gone before you are destroyed due to how fast you are. Most shots inherently miss you due to how fast you are.

I mean yes, i guess, if the NPCs essentially ignore you, a dragon raider will do fine picking off enemies. So will any ship in that case, even S ships.

And yes, i meant m/s, not kms. Though your 400ms compsred to 1300ms is completely incorrect, unless you are purposefully comparing them with different engines. Putting the same engines on each, the difference is much much smaller.

Im not sayimg you can't think the Dragon Raider is the best M ship. I just disagree with you, and feel that your characterization of speed being king is overselling it. There are diminishing returns on speed when you are giving up other essentials like shields and hull stremgth.

The nemesis is by far the best balanced M ship for its speed, firepower, hull, shields, and agility... and probably also the best M ship to fly early as it is certainly way more forgiving than the dragon raider.

[dtpsprt]

..................

The ship is so fast it can always get away. 1.3 KM/sec fight speed (with equipment mods installed, which should always be the case for the player flown ships) is similar to the boost speed of many of the S ships you fight. It also has such fire power that if you manage to get an isolated target you can nuke it before it can even respond. For example a Xenon P, some of the toughest M ships in X4, dies near instantly.

Even with 1 M shield it is still a lot tougher than S ships, especially at the speed it flies at.
...........

Ahem Ahem... I am under the right impression that the OP is at the beginning of his/her game, so what about the ship mods? Especially since the "good" ones require advanced research and modparts...
And all that with enough practice in dogfights to be able to turn on and off flight assist.

P.S. we can open a thread with battle and/or boarding techniques any time but please let us "old timers" not confuse the new players eh?

[jlehtone]

I had a fight in Dragon Raider. No modifications. Against 20+ Katanas and some Falx.
Did I die? Many times. Did I survive? Eventually. Was it interesting? Yes. Does that help OP? No.

If fighting is my worse quality in the game capturing will be next to impossible for me, I love trading and station building but need to fight in the quest

Plot missions in the earlier games were of two types:

• Bring your own toys. If a mission allows you to bring a Raptor with full fighter wing with you, then trade and build before you take the mission
• Strictly limited to what you have during mission. One had to make do with what was given

I don't know X4 plots, but I know that one can play a lot before taking them.

[GCU Grey Area]

The Falx can be pretty fun to fly since despite being a frigate it behaves more like a S ship with ludicrous acceleration (tap boost and you are at max boost speed), but again its size, low speed and lower damage generally makes it a less good Katana for just shooting up S and M ships.

Lower damage? That doesn't sound right - Falx has exactly the same number of guns & turrets as Katana. Can also be equipped with a dozen defence drones & if it's using missiles or torps Falx can carry significantly more. If anything Falx has potential for more damage rather than less.

Katana was the first M ship I bought in my current Terran game, simply because it was a lot cheaper. However as soon as I could afford the Falx I shifted over to it & have felt no inclination whatsoever to fly my Katana since then (I now use it for remote deployment of satellites etc). I can do everything in a Falx I could do in that Katana, but I also have access to an S dock (for drones & a convenient S miner) & I find the phenomenal acceleration of the Falx far more entertaining than having a better top speed with Katana.

[Trevelvis]

I had a fight in Dragon Raider. No modifications. Against 20+ Katanas and some Falx.
Did I die? Many times. Did I survive? Eventually. Was it interesting? Yes. Does that help OP? No.

If fighting is my worse quality in the game capturing will be next to impossible for me, I love trading and station building but need to fight in the quest

Plot missions in the earlier games were of two types:

• Bring your own toys. If a mission allows you to bring a Raptor with full fighter wing with you, then trade and build before you take the mission
• Strictly limited to what you have during mission. One had to make do with what was given

I don't know X4 plots, but I know that one can play a lot before taking them.

It’s ok to say these ships but I am not sure what I can get early game without having to higher my reputation. It’s the plot for HQ as I’ve never had one before .

I want to thank everyone for all the replies, now I’m more confused than ever