Marauder stealing from stations?

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terodil
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by terodil » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 00:00

Midnitewolf wrote:
Mon, 19. Apr 21, 23:11
Well as to it being a fun mechanic, I sure as hell enjoy the it. I mean they are pirates and do what pirates do, steal stuff. What else would you expect them to do?
That's your prerogative, but I honestly find it difficult to relate; feeling joy over losing millions in wares, mostly without even being aware of it, just cutting into profits and messing up supply chains, seems... idiosyncratic to me. But you do you! :)
I have seen them be unsuccessful as well and killed by my Station Defenses so it isn't a 100% chance they succeed. [...] if their disguise fails, which it does all the time, your stations will kill the pilot [...]
I'd like more info on this 'disguise failing'. When I was playing last, before I threw in the towel, the pillagers I noticed never failed to complete their hacks. The fact that you found several dead SCA ships in proximity to your station could just be the result of what I usually observed: after succeeding at the hack, the pillagers would drop their false flag and would then come under fire from static or mobile station defenses. This was, of course, always too late to prevent the damage though: the wares released from storage would still largely be lost to to the cookie monster a.k.a. despawn. And shortly thereafter, the next pillager would spawn and do the same thing again.
[...] if you go global orders, you will see that you a section labeled, "Fire Authorisation Overrides" You can go there and create a list of how you want to handle all the factions in the game.
Is there a faction 'SCA disguised as another faction'? Because if not, this won't help with false-flagged pirates. I need to ask because it's been a little while since I played X4 last.
What would be the point of having Pirates in the game if you could counter all their activity with a single button [...] what more do you want [...]
We've had this argument before, and I think I already answered 'what more' I want. I want a challenge, not a tax. Xenons, Khaak or other factions I may have pissed off are a challenge. I can counter that challenge by starving their economies, by deploying defenses, etc., and if they wipe out my assets, it's because I, personally, am to blame for bad tactics and a lack of preparation. I can handle that. Pirates, however, profit from temporary invincibility that allows them to do serious damage without me being able to do anything to stop them. That is ridiculous.
You can set up a police patrol and sometimes they will catch them other times not.
Are you saying police sector patrols are a reliable way to counter piracy, like aformentioned economy starvation or military presence would counter main faction fleets? If so, can you send me some of your cops? Because mine are largely content going on scenic flights around the sector while munching donuts. It would help greatly if I could attach a police patrol directly to a station; but this is just one of the numerous suggestions that I, and others, have previously submitted to address the pirates-hack-stations-with-impunity-issue.
Download and install the Mod Sector Patrols by Assailer.
That's brilliant. I hadn't seen that mod. Greatly appreciate the tip.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, there are mods that allow you to unlock SCA faction if you want to give up the easy peasy destroyer captures that is.
Don't even need mods for that; a quick savegame edit allows you to unlock the rep, or to set it to clearer values (-1/+1 = eternal enemies/friends), which apparently eliminates the false-flag-issue.


I'm sorry if I'm coming across as invested into this issue or as argumentative. It wasn't a lie or hyperbole when I wrote that this issue killed my last game and that I quit X4 due to this. I find it hard to cope with uncontrollable/chaotic elements at times, and this mechanic, at least in its state somewhat pre-4.0, made me watch helplessly as pirates ravaged my stations and messed up my finely-tuned supply chains, even though I had done everything the game allowed me to do. In X3 I could create huge supply chains that would run like well-oiled machines -- I would occasionally sit back and just enjoy watching countless ships ferrying goods to and fro while keeping inventory levels low and profits high. It was beautiful. Pirate hacking in X4 ruined that and made me feel helpless. I hate feeling helpless.
My X3 mods: Ship Autoclaimer - Ship Services - Friendlier War Sectors - in development: Logistics Centre

SwizzleStick86
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by SwizzleStick86 » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 00:23

Ironically to this topic, this morning o had a FAF rattlesnake attack my Hokiddo (however you spell it, TER L miner), with all TER components and basic shield mod, chassis mod, engine, and basic on the L mining turret..long story short the miner stripped the rattlesnake of shields and took it down to about 60% hull before the rattlesnake retreated...Miner only dropped to 90% sheild...all OOS btw and only 3 star captain on my miner.
"It can only be attributable to human error."
-HAL 9000

Wraith_Magus
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Wraith_Magus » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 05:10

terodil wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 00:00
That's your prerogative, but I honestly find it difficult to relate; feeling joy over losing millions in wares, mostly without even being aware of it, just cutting into profits and messing up supply chains, seems... idiosyncratic to me. But you do you! :)
I've noticed that pirates only appear in certain sectors, almost always ones near places SCA is active. Places like Nopileos' Fortune, Hewa's Twin, Silent Witnes, and Heretic's End (basically all the "neutral" sectors players like to claim) are expressly noted as pirate havens, and I have almost exclusively found plunderers operating in sectors adjacent to those. Obviously, you can't help your PHQ being placed in Grand Exchange (at first...), but otherwise, try to just build your stations someplace else. A place like Holy Vision will have some Xenon problems... but those are clearly marked red baddies your station turrets will have no trouble recognizing are worth shooting.

Midnitewolf
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Midnitewolf » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 06:09

terodil wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 00:00
Midnitewolf wrote:
Mon, 19. Apr 21, 23:11
Well as to it being a fun mechanic, I sure as hell enjoy the it. I mean they are pirates and do what pirates do, steal stuff. What else would you expect them to do?
That's your prerogative, but I honestly find it difficult to relate; feeling joy over losing millions in wares, mostly without even being aware of it, just cutting into profits and messing up supply chains, seems... idiosyncratic to me. But you do you! :)
I have seen them be unsuccessful as well and killed by my Station Defenses so it isn't a 100% chance they succeed. [...] if their disguise fails, which it does all the time, your stations will kill the pilot [...]
I'd like more info on this 'disguise failing'. When I was playing last, before I threw in the towel, the pillagers I noticed never failed to complete their hacks. The fact that you found several dead SCA ships in proximity to your station could just be the result of what I usually observed: after succeeding at the hack, the pillagers would drop their false flag and would then come under fire from static or mobile station defenses. This was, of course, always too late to prevent the damage though: the wares released from storage would still largely be lost to to the cookie monster a.k.a. despawn. And shortly thereafter, the next pillager would spawn and do the same thing again.
[...] if you go global orders, you will see that you a section labeled, "Fire Authorisation Overrides" You can go there and create a list of how you want to handle all the factions in the game.
Is there a faction 'SCA disguised as another faction'? Because if not, this won't help with false-flagged pirates. I need to ask because it's been a little while since I played X4 last.
What would be the point of having Pirates in the game if you could counter all their activity with a single button [...] what more do you want [...]
We've had this argument before, and I think I already answered 'what more' I want. I want a challenge, not a tax. Xenons, Khaak or other factions I may have pissed off are a challenge. I can counter that challenge by starving their economies, by deploying defenses, etc., and if they wipe out my assets, it's because I, personally, am to blame for bad tactics and a lack of preparation. I can handle that. Pirates, however, profit from temporary invincibility that allows them to do serious damage without me being able to do anything to stop them. That is ridiculous.
You can set up a police patrol and sometimes they will catch them other times not.
Are you saying police sector patrols are a reliable way to counter piracy, like aformentioned economy starvation or military presence would counter main faction fleets? If so, can you send me some of your cops? Because mine are largely content going on scenic flights around the sector while munching donuts. It would help greatly if I could attach a police patrol directly to a station; but this is just one of the numerous suggestions that I, and others, have previously submitted to address the pirates-hack-stations-with-impunity-issue.
Download and install the Mod Sector Patrols by Assailer.
That's brilliant. I hadn't seen that mod. Greatly appreciate the tip.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, there are mods that allow you to unlock SCA faction if you want to give up the easy peasy destroyer captures that is.
Don't even need mods for that; a quick savegame edit allows you to unlock the rep, or to set it to clearer values (-1/+1 = eternal enemies/friends), which apparently eliminates the false-flag-issue.


I'm sorry if I'm coming across as invested into this issue or as argumentative. It wasn't a lie or hyperbole when I wrote that this issue killed my last game and that I quit X4 due to this. I find it hard to cope with uncontrollable/chaotic elements at times, and this mechanic, at least in its state somewhat pre-4.0, made me watch helplessly as pirates ravaged my stations and messed up my finely-tuned supply chains, even though I had done everything the game allowed me to do. In X3 I could create huge supply chains that would run like well-oiled machines -- I would occasionally sit back and just enjoy watching countless ships ferrying goods to and fro while keeping inventory levels low and profits high. It was beautiful. Pirate hacking in X4 ruined that and made me feel helpless. I hate feeling helpless.
Hey man no worries. I am probably coming off as argumentative as well because in real life, pirates are an uncontrolled, chaotic element that you can only do so much about. I mean again just look at real life pirates. We have tons of Naval vessels patrolling those places where it happens but they can't be everywhere every time so ships still get hijacked in fact there were 195 real life Pirate Attacks in 2020.

My point is the game is supposed to simulate or try to simulate what it might be like out in the verse 200-1000 years from now. Pirates will be a thing and they will be a chaotic and uncontrollable factor just like in the game. And you keep claiming you don't have recourse in the game but you do or as much recourse as we have in real life. You can set police patrols, you can make them kill on sight, you can order your ships to attack them at will with no penalty and you can actively hop in a ship and hunt them down. Also they can't hide from you because the have the name "pillager" or "Marauder" in their title no matter what flag they fly. My point is you have a lot of control over pirates each with its own level of effectiveness. The only thing you can't do is completely eliminate them, which is pretty damn realistic if you ask me.

Also, I get that it is annoying to lose 10-20 million in goods to a hack, but I find it just as annoying to lose a 20-30 million miner or transport to a random, roving Xenon or the worst, a Friendly Fire incident. Hell I just lost an entire fleet of 7 cap ships over some sort of friendly fire incident where my ships fired at a Xenon as it flew by and hit a station triggering its defense platform. That was about 150 million gone right there. I know it probably won't mean much considering how you feel but my point is your going to lose things in the game so losing a bit here and there to pirates isn't any different.

Oh and I want to confirm that yes, the SCA pirates do fail. I had one in my sights who was in the process of recovering goods from an NPC station it had hacked. About the 3rd crate it picked up, suddenly the station lit him up like a Christmas tree which unfortunately deprived me of my capture but I just wanted to say I did witness it. One cavate though. I am playing a modded game so I don't know for sure if this happening is due to a mod or vanilla behavior. As far as I know, I have no mods installed what would change this but who knows.

Anyway, man good luck to you. I hope maybe you can see things in a different perspective about how the pirates work but as I always say, it is a single player game and at the end of the day, you should tailor it to be enjoyable by you and no one else so cheat, increase the difficulty or mod to your heats content and enjoy the game.

Pares
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Pares » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 13:12

I wish there was a "Police area" command which would make your selected ship to scan every non-player non-hostile ship going through the area. Obviosly if there is a lot of traffic and few police ships, there would be a good chance for pirates to slip through. Lot of police ships? Little chance. The current "Police" command, as stated before, is utterly useless.

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grapedog
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by grapedog » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 13:58

I have an alert for L sized SCA ships, so my traders often find them when arriving at a station. The alert goes off, and i send in a ship from somewhere to destroy them. I would safely say at least once an hour ill find an SCA destroyer trying go collect its loot.

It wont pop when they are disguised, but i have nsver seen a fake faction ship robbing a station. Maybe they can't hack/steal without giving up the disguise?

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ADMNtek
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by ADMNtek » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 16:33

the game seems to be cheating when it comes to this. i have seen several cases where my station dropped 200+ computronics. however the one that came to pick it up wasn't a marauder or a plunderer but usually a kestrel prospector.

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grapedog
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by grapedog » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 18:34

ADMNtek wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 16:33
the game seems to be cheating when it comes to this. i have seen several cases where my station dropped 200+ computronics. however the one that came to pick it up wasn't a marauder or a plunderer but usually a kestrel prospector.
if he's prospecting for good deals, free claytronics is certainly a good deal.... though a kestral... can hold what, like 5 claytronics?

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ADMNtek
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by ADMNtek » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 20:45

exactly i had just ordered one of my cargo ships to pick it up and then that ship takes it all. and i have seen it happen several more times. it happened so much that by now i setup a small trade station next to my HQ that only serves as a sell point for my computronics collection ships. sounds insane but losing around 1.6 mill each time piles up fast.

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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Wraith_Magus » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 21:55

grapedog wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 13:58
I have an alert for L sized SCA ships, so my traders often find them when arriving at a station. The alert goes off, and i send in a ship from somewhere to destroy them. I would safely say at least once an hour ill find an SCA destroyer trying go collect its loot.

It wont pop when they are disguised, but i have nsver seen a fake faction ship robbing a station. Maybe they can't hack/steal without giving up the disguise?
You're probably just not looking for them, so you're not finding them.

When I was robbed twice at the same time, I decided to go on a little vengeance spree and wipe out every SCA plunderer. Turns out there's a lot of them, and they respawn faster than I can take them down, but hey, it's profitable! I managed to build a whole megafactory from the proceeds. (Protip: Selling ships straight-up has a massive nerf to it, so you only get about 1/3rd the value, but selling the parts and inventory at an equipment dock or shipyard still gives you full cash value, so with a little more micromanagement, you can squeeze another 3 million out of your selling a boarded ship. Half of these phoenixes have mk3 thrusters, which are worth 5mil alone! Oh, and shop around in shipyards to find one with the least stock/highest prices to offload your goods - that's worth another 3 million right there! Done right, you can get 12 million pre phoenix, which is pretty good money for something you can do in a 1.5 mil corvette with some troopship backup worth only 3-6 mil, depending on ship. In fact, you can make millions just running corvettes back and forth between shipyards buying advanced satellites in places where they cost 80k and selling them where they cost 120k...)

I don't know if there's a better way to do this, but I just go from sector to sector on the map with object list open set to ships, scrolled to just where the non-player units still appear (about one sector's worth of screen), and manually scan for "plunderer". I then set one of my scouts to follow any plunderer I find. They DEFINITELY still plunder, but they occasionally get scanned and attacked by police, and that's when they get flagged as SCA.

(Amusing side note: If plunderers are disguised as ARG, they will have the SCA "greenback" paint scheme, but the ARG logo even after you scan them and reveal them UNTIL you move far enough away that it despawns/respawns the model, at which point it has magically turned to the SCA logo painted on the ship. Likewise, a marine will quickly paint the player logo on the ship the instant your back is turned after boarding.)

In any event, following the plunderers closely, I constantly noticed plunderers basically doing nothing but sitting next to fields of ejected cargo crates near a station, punctuated by them flying to the next one in travel mode. Plunderers will do nothing else unless attacked by someone.

Oh, and minotaur raiders aren't worth the effort (I've shot them to death with a single ion cannon from 100% to 0% hull, which took 20 mins, all while using Comms to try to ask them to surrender, and they STILL refused, the stubborn jerks!), so I just flag them as hostile and destroy them. They're more effort to capture than the destroyers, and worth less a tenth as much, plus minotaur raiders SUUUUUUUCK, so there's no point in capturing them to use, either.

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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Midnitewolf » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 22:20

grapedog wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 13:58
I have an alert for L sized SCA ships, so my traders often find them when arriving at a station. The alert goes off, and i send in a ship from somewhere to destroy them. I would safely say at least once an hour ill find an SCA destroyer trying go collect its loot.

It wont pop when they are disguised, but i have nsver seen a fake faction ship robbing a station. Maybe they can't hack/steal without giving up the disguise?
I am not sure. I am pretty sure I have seen them doing it while disguised but I will admit I could be wrong. However, if your right, then just setting your stations defenses to KOS SCA should do the trick in killing them off. I mean it won't prevent the initial hack but the second they drop the disguise, your defensive turrets should light them up.

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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Midnitewolf » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 22:22

Pares wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 13:12
I wish there was a "Police area" command which would make your selected ship to scan every non-player non-hostile ship going through the area. Obviosly if there is a lot of traffic and few police ships, there would be a good chance for pirates to slip through. Lot of police ships? Little chance. The current "Police" command, as stated before, is utterly useless.
You can get that mod I mentioned earlier and it will actively try to reveal disguised ships.

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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Midnitewolf » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 22:29

ADMNtek wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 16:33
the game seems to be cheating when it comes to this. i have seen several cases where my station dropped 200+ computronics. however the one that came to pick it up wasn't a marauder or a plunderer but usually a kestrel prospector.
It is because he is using a hack, not "selecting" what he wants. The hack just expels a random amount of a random type or several random types of goods. I have seen times where only 2-3 crates are spawned with very low quantities of good due to a hack and one time, when there must have been 50+ crates each with like 3000 goods in each crate.

One thing I will say is I am not 100% sure these goods are actually spawned from your inventory. For example when I had the huge hack of my Wharf/Shipyard with literally 1000s of each type of goods floating around out in space, I paused the game when it happened to just allow myself to get over the shock and then looked at my inventory levels on goods expecting the worst. However, all my inventories looked to be in good shape and well stocked, really no different than the way the inventory status had looked about an hour earlier when I last checked how things were running. Again no way to know for sure, but the hack sure didn't appear to have affected my inventory levels.

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ADMNtek
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by ADMNtek » Tue, 20. Apr 21, 22:43

Midnitewolf wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 22:29
ADMNtek wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 16:33
the game seems to be cheating when it comes to this. i have seen several cases where my station dropped 200+ computronics. however the one that came to pick it up wasn't a marauder or a plunderer but usually a kestrel prospector.
It is because he is using a hack, not "selecting" what he wants. The hack just expels a random amount of a random type or several random types of goods. I have seen times where only 2-3 crates are spawned with very low quantities of good due to a hack and one time, when there must have been 50+ crates each with like 3000 goods in each crate.

One thing I will say is I am not 100% sure these goods are actually spawned from your inventory. For example when I had the huge hack of my Wharf/Shipyard with literally 1000s of each type of goods floating around out in space, I paused the game when it happened to just allow myself to get over the shock and then looked at my inventory levels on goods expecting the worst. However, all my inventories looked to be in good shape and well stocked, really no different than the way the inventory status had looked about an hour earlier when I last checked how things were running. Again no way to know for sure, but the hack sure didn't appear to have affected my inventory levels.
interesting but this far the only thing i have ever seen dropped is computronics. and it is also the only thing my collection ships collect. however i have not looked if there was an actual drop in my storage levels when it happens need to keep an eye on that.

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grapedog
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by grapedog » Wed, 21. Apr 21, 08:38

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 21:55

Oh, and minotaur raiders aren't worth the effort (I've shot them to death with a single ion cannon from 100% to 0% hull, which took 20 mins, all while using Comms to try to ask them to surrender, and they STILL refused, the stubborn jerks!), so I just flag them as hostile and destroy them. They're more effort to capture than the destroyers, and worth less a tenth as much, plus minotaur raiders SUUUUUUUCK, so there's no point in capturing them to use, either.
I would disagree with this, as for me personally, it is the easiest way to make early game money. Capping minotaur and dragon raiders, can be done in a kestral and only takes a few minutes. The only worry is if they are equipped with tracking launchers... if they don't have tracking launchers, they're pretty easy to make bail.

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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by Wraith_Magus » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 07:13

grapedog wrote:
Wed, 21. Apr 21, 08:38
Wraith_Magus wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 21:55

Oh, and minotaur raiders aren't worth the effort (I've shot them to death with a single ion cannon from 100% to 0% hull, which took 20 mins, all while using Comms to try to ask them to surrender, and they STILL refused, the stubborn jerks!), so I just flag them as hostile and destroy them. They're more effort to capture than the destroyers, and worth less a tenth as much, plus minotaur raiders SUUUUUUUCK, so there's no point in capturing them to use, either.
I would disagree with this, as for me personally, it is the easiest way to make early game money. Capping minotaur and dragon raiders, can be done in a kestral and only takes a few minutes. The only worry is if they are equipped with tracking launchers... if they don't have tracking launchers, they're pretty easy to make bail.
I've just had terrible luck with it, maybe, but they NEVER bail for me. I've destroyed the minotaurs after shooting them for 20 minutes with ions, as previously stated, and it's just impossible for me to get them to bail. Even when they did bail, it took 15 minutes or so of constantly bombardment. It's just faster (and FAR less boring) to make money nearly any other way for me.

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grapedog
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Re: Marauder stealing from stations?

Post by grapedog » Thu, 22. Apr 21, 08:11

Wraith_Magus wrote:
Thu, 22. Apr 21, 07:13
grapedog wrote:
Wed, 21. Apr 21, 08:38
Wraith_Magus wrote:
Tue, 20. Apr 21, 21:55

Oh, and minotaur raiders aren't worth the effort (I've shot them to death with a single ion cannon from 100% to 0% hull, which took 20 mins, all while using Comms to try to ask them to surrender, and they STILL refused, the stubborn jerks!), so I just flag them as hostile and destroy them. They're more effort to capture than the destroyers, and worth less a tenth as much, plus minotaur raiders SUUUUUUUCK, so there's no point in capturing them to use, either.
I would disagree with this, as for me personally, it is the easiest way to make early game money. Capping minotaur and dragon raiders, can be done in a kestral and only takes a few minutes. The only worry is if they are equipped with tracking launchers... if they don't have tracking launchers, they're pretty easy to make bail.
I've just had terrible luck with it, maybe, but they NEVER bail for me. I've destroyed the minotaurs after shooting them for 20 minutes with ions, as previously stated, and it's just impossible for me to get them to bail. Even when they did bail, it took 15 minutes or so of constantly bombardment. It's just faster (and FAR less boring) to make money nearly any other way for me.
The stronger the ship you fly, the harder it will be to get pilots to bail. I personally feel the asp raider is the best S/M capping ship in the game. Quick, super weak hull, and 3 weapon hardpoints.

I did all the math in another thread, but essentially the two biggest factors you can control for the every 30 second morale checks are

1. Total(not current) hull vs total hull. - the weaker your total hull is compared to theirs, the higher the modifier you have for getting them to bail.

2. Current Hull+Shield vs. Current Hull+Shield - keep your hull and shield at 100%, take their shield down to zero and hull to %70ish.

NPC pilots also have stats, you might be unlucky and only face 5 star pilots, but that is super highly unlikely. We all know how hard it is to get 5 star pilots, and i doubt ego cheats this. Most likely you don't have many modifiers in your favor, so the bail chance is very low.

Anyhow, making pilots bail is what I do. It's how i get my early miners and traders to put to work, and how I get cash by selling minotaur and dragon raiders. And ive done this in kestrals, rapiers, and jaguars... any super weak starting ship is usually a good option for capping.

The asp raider is probably also my favorite ship in the game, so fun to fly...

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