Make Xenons great again
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Re: Make Xenons great again
If you don't want to lose your xenons before new update come:
Hack construction terminal of TER Shipyard. At the same time it can help ANT in ARG vs TER war.
Hack construction terminal of TER Shipyard. At the same time it can help ANT in ARG vs TER war.
Re: Make Xenons great again
A system can be stabile or labile. Stabile system resists change.
In X3 you could kill all Xenon ships and stations, but they would keep their sector ownership and respawn. Very stabile.
If a small player/dev/rng action can create huge difference, then the system is labile.
A chemical system tries to reach equilibrium. It has forces that drive towards the equilibrium; the "minimal energy state".
If the forces are strong, then the equilibrium is (re-)reached quickly and disturbances have no lasting effect.
If the forces are weak, then even minor disturbances have long lasting effect.
If there is no drive towards equilibrium, then there is no equilibrium and system keeps its current state only until something changes it.
A system can have multiple "local energy minima". For example: (A) factions are about same strenght and have continuous war, and (B) a faction has conquered the Galaxy and there is peace. There must be thresholds between them. If the system does have a force to drive towards equilibrium, towards minima, then crossing threshold is when the forces get a new goal.
One could say that X4 is rather labile and the "return to normal" forces are weak or non-existent.
Indestructible Xenon Shipyard is very "stabile".
Easy to destruct Xenon Shipyard that immediately rebuilds is also quite stabile, although you can "do something". Limited immersion.
Easy to destruct Xenon Shipyard that never rebuilds lets you definitely to "do something". Problem is that we don't like the new state.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Re: Make Xenons great again
For more stable XEN I would make some simple but good logic of building and behaviour.jlehtone wrote: ↑Sat, 17. Apr 21, 12:19One could say that X4 is rather labile and the "return to normal" forces are weak or non-existent.
Indestructible Xenon Shipyard is very "stabile".
Easy to destruct Xenon Shipyard that immediately rebuilds is also quite stabile, although you can "do something". Limited immersion.
Easy to destruct Xenon Shipyard that never rebuilds lets you definitely to "do something". Problem is that we don't like the new state.
Defending Station - only next to the gate. Maximum 2 Def Statin per gate or even 1.
XEN Behaviour - play from defence. Each station has some pull. Shipyard/Wharf has 2x I + 5x K for defending. DefStation has 1x I 3x K. Solar plant 1 or 2x K. Plus some M/S for fun. Pull must be always full of ships.
XEN responce - if something happens or some L/XL ships in the sector - send support from pulls of Def Stations.
XEN Attacks - they can send some M/S ships to other sectors just for fun in any time. But XL ships only if all pulls next to all XEN stations are full of ships. Only Extra fleets could send to attack.
XEN take sectors - take sectors one by one. Don't pass or skip them. Destroy everything in the sector, build defence and only then go to attack next one.
In this case I think it could be very easy to balance Aggression. For sure Egosoft can play with turrets and other stuff but it is very easy to make levels of difficulty for players.
Low - XEN sectors full of xenons and all pulls next to station full of XL ships. Shipyard/Wharf stop and working only for replacing ships in the pulls.
Xenons attack and kill only what come inside their sectors. Only M/S class go to other sectors just for fun.
Medium - it should be responsibility of Egosoft balance. Everything is working like Egosoft wants.
High - XEN sectors full of xenons. Wharf and Shipyard work non stop. All extra ships go around and destroy everything.
HardCore - XEN sectors full of xenons. Nonstop construction and huge bonuses to Xenons. - I think it is a dream for EndGame stage. Checking all defending what you build all your time in the game
You don't need stable Xenons. You should be able to destroy them. But it has to be a challenge for any level of difficulty. It is not ok and not a balance when you able to destroy all xenons with only 1 ship.
And personal balance for Yaki mission.
Depends of player choice:
1. TER send fleet. Standard behaviour for Xenons. Play from defence depends of level of difficulty.
2. XEN send fleet. Huge bonuses only for these sectors of Xenons. Till TER kaput. Then again depends on level of difficulty.
3. Clean XEN sectors - possible stop construction and replacing of XEN ships in these sectors to help player finish this mission.
p.s.
Maybe it could be interesting for you.
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Re: Make Xenons great again
Xenon success varies from play through to play through. I've noticed the biggest influence is literally just station placement. In one play through the split get run over by the xenon, in another the split get lucky and several plasma turret equipped stations are spawned together in front of a jumpgate leading into xenon space. Same with hat space, if several good defense stations are grouped up and near the xenon jumpgate, they will be held off.
Re: Make Xenons great again
The greater picture is that AI does not use fleets efficiently. Therefore, stations are more effective defense than a fleet.
Fill every sector with "proper" stations and the factions can&will send their fleets to destruction without fear of losing ground. That is good business.
The player can still make a difference as demolition expert.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Re: Make Xenons great again
I tend to take the containment approach to the Xenon. Very early on in the game I exterminated the Xenon over time and well, the game was very boring and became nothing more than an economy simulator. Since then I adopted the containment strategy wherein I just set up specially designed entry control defense structures that keep the Xenon in their own systems. Occasionally, a few will get through now due to the new gate mechanic causing them to spawn 20km from the gate rather than going through it but that is fine. Depending on how much destruction they are wreaking I will step in and close off other factions such as the Split. The Xenon love to burn down Zyarth due to all the connections to Xenon space. Have to keep the game interesting and the Xenon are part of that.
Re: Make Xenons great again
I think the bigger picture is those 50-70 L Plasma stations. How many destroyers does it take to match that.jlehtone wrote: ↑Sat, 17. Apr 21, 16:24The greater picture is that AI does not use fleets efficiently. Therefore, stations are more effective defense than a fleet.
Fill every sector with "proper" stations and the factions can&will send their fleets to destruction without fear of losing ground. That is good business.
The player can still make a difference as demolition expert.
But otherwise yeah, I've seen PAR run roughshod over the HOP EQ Dock while 5 or so HOP Oddys are hanging out near the shipyard, defending some random station. They moved eventually though so perhaps there is some in built delay, hard to say.
Re: Make Xenons great again
If I understand you correctly it is a little defense station with about half a dozen defense disc. Or do you means a defense station with 70 defense modules ?
Anyway, imo at X4 even at 3.0 - 3.3 you d better to have fleet than station, for two reasons.
First ; fleet are more versatile and you can use it to both attack and defense.
Second ; it exist no serious threat at x4 to justify static defenses such as stations. The only case I feel defense station was needed was in mooded game with VRO + ROR. It is here I noticed yhat when a station become too powerful AI stop to attack and try an alternate way/gate to reach the target.
Re: Make Xenons great again
Well, I've noticed defense stations popping up with 70 L Plasma turrets. Though tbf I think most starting ones have stupid things like Pulses instead.Malchar wrote: ↑Sat, 17. Apr 21, 18:26If I understand you correctly it is a little defense station with about half a dozen defense disc. Or do you means a defense station with 70 defense modules ?
Anyway, imo at X4 even at 3.0 - 3.3 you d better to have fleet than station, for two reasons.
First ; fleet are more versatile and you can use it to both attack and defense.
Second ; it exist no serious threat at x4 to justify static defenses such as stations. The only case I feel defense station was needed was in mooded game with VRO + ROR. It is here I noticed yhat when a station become too powerful AI stop to attack and try an alternate way/gate to reach the target.
With that said, looking around at normal stations they do seem to have a high number of Plasma turrets, not 70 perhaps, but still pretty high.
Re: Make Xenons great again
If there are no serious threats, then why do we have this thread lamenting the poor Xenon? Don't they face quite real threats
We do not play as Xenon. Our way to use fleets does not benefit Xenon (or any other faction). They can either get their fleet killed, or (more rarely) killed after they've done something useful.
Yes, the firepower of just a single station (Xenon DP has four defence modules, each with max four Gravitons) equals a decent fleet. The more important advantage of a station is that it does do solo suicide run to enemy sectors like ships do. If you give NPC a ship then you have no idea where it will sail to, but if you build them a station then it won't leave its post.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Re: Make Xenons great again
Xenons s pathetic declin at v4.00 is more likely a death by starvation than a violent death in combat. Add to that the new OOS system that make xenons an unadapted specie. They are, so to say, promise to natural extinction just like mammouth at the end of the last glaciation.
No serious threat to justify stations ; You have never loose at X4 I presume ? You never have been forced to gave up because a stron ennemy had conquiered 3/4 of the know universe, dooming you to bankrucy or certain defeat in battle ? It never happened to me either and I never heard it happened to someone else.
X4 can be a bit hard to master at start, but at the same time it is one (or the) most easy game I either played. You simply cant loose and your fate is to become more rich and powerful each day.
However I regret v3.3 xenons. They gave use an illusion of danger and were able to cause trouble in our supply line. At least it forced us to react and it gave us a (an additional) goal.
Other faction ; if we go at war, we, players, decide when. Shortly it is a piece of cake. Idem for xenons stations. I can decide to wait days 4 and send several hundred of destroyers in the assault. never mind about casualties, rebuild rate is higher than lose rate even in v 4.00.
Summary ; yes, give us back our xenons, to add a bit of action in the game.
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Re: Make Xenons great again
Is there something wrong with K in the OOS battle? I feel it does not count K's main gun in OOS. My Syn cannot beat K in IS, if we are both shooting each other. However, in OOS, my Syn can beat K without any scratch.
Re: Make Xenons great again
I have observed several times that a K could not destroy a construction ship in OOS Battle. WTF!?
Re: Make Xenons great again
That is what did happen already before 4.0. The TEL took #9 (and many other sectors) from XEN through starvation and outbuilding.Malchar wrote: ↑Sun, 18. Apr 21, 02:38Xenons s pathetic declin at v4.00 is more likely a death by starvation than a violent death in combat. Add to that the new OOS system that make xenons an unadapted specie. They are, so to say, promise to natural extinction just like mammouth at the end of the last glaciation.
send several hundred of destroyers in the assault. never mind about casualties, rebuild rate is higher than lose rate even in v 4.00.
The NPC has no issue with casualties. On the other hand the XEN are still pushing in Hewa in 4.0.
A question is what should happen in a game, where the player does nothing (either does not know how or chooses not to act)?
Should a NPC faction have a fair chance to advance? Does that apply to all factions or just some?
Does winning make faction stronger and losing weaker? If yes, then that has cumulative effect. If some faction starts to steamroll, then there is no stop (unless player acts).
In strategic board games (e.g. Calhamer's Diplomacy) the other factions usually ally (temporarily) to stop the juggernaut. X4 does not have that, does it?
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Re: Make Xenons great again
We have to wait for HF3 or new update 4.10 I hope it will be soon and not in 3 yearsjlehtone wrote: ↑Sun, 18. Apr 21, 10:21That is what did happen already before 4.0. The TEL took #9 (and many other sectors) from XEN through starvation and outbuilding.Malchar wrote: ↑Sun, 18. Apr 21, 02:38Xenons s pathetic declin at v4.00 is more likely a death by starvation than a violent death in combat. Add to that the new OOS system that make xenons an unadapted specie. They are, so to say, promise to natural extinction just like mammouth at the end of the last glaciation.
send several hundred of destroyers in the assault. never mind about casualties, rebuild rate is higher than lose rate even in v 4.00.
The NPC has no issue with casualties. On the other hand the XEN are still pushing in Hewa in 4.0.
A question is what should happen in a game, where the player does nothing (either does not know how or chooses not to act)?
Should a NPC faction have a fair chance to advance? Does that apply to all factions or just some?
Does winning make faction stronger and losing weaker? If yes, then that has cumulative effect. If some faction starts to steamroll, then there is no stop (unless player acts).
In strategic board games (e.g. Calhamer's Diplomacy) the other factions usually ally (temporarily) to stop the juggernaut. X4 does not have that, does it?
If you don't want to lose your xenons until new update you can use some ways.
- Hack constraction terminal on TER Shipyard.
- Dock XL ship to TER XL Construction bay + option stay docked just in case.
It looks like TEL take sectors... But they would not take any sector without TER fleets. Even Tokyo able to completely destroy all xenons economics (just destroy all miners around in OOS)
Re: Make Xenons great again
We are currently playing 4.0 HF3, so it would be HF4 or 4.x. The "venture" thingy will probably pop in in less than three years.
I consider hacking to be dishonest. Besides, to hack you need to dock and for dock you need that "reputation". I have some "reputation"; it was -15 when the TER did show up. With some effort I got it to -30. Not quite enough to dock yet, but at least they allow me to shoot the production terminal.
Not that I need to; they seem to have resource shortage. After pumping out dozen Asgards and Tokyos the TER are quite quiet. I did just some light recon in Sol. What a shame; TER can't provide a decent war any more than XEN.
It does not "look" that TEL takes XEN sectors. They do, alone. No TER has visited those sectors. In fact, TEL took most of them before 4.0. If OOS was "better" for XEN before 4.0, then it still was not very good.
I consider hacking to be dishonest. Besides, to hack you need to dock and for dock you need that "reputation". I have some "reputation"; it was -15 when the TER did show up. With some effort I got it to -30. Not quite enough to dock yet, but at least they allow me to shoot the production terminal.
Not that I need to; they seem to have resource shortage. After pumping out dozen Asgards and Tokyos the TER are quite quiet. I did just some light recon in Sol. What a shame; TER can't provide a decent war any more than XEN.
It does not "look" that TEL takes XEN sectors. They do, alone. No TER has visited those sectors. In fact, TEL took most of them before 4.0. If OOS was "better" for XEN before 4.0, then it still was not very good.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Re: Make Xenons great again
My 1st game started ways ago. Long ways. Before SV perhaps even. In that game, with SV Xenons were a risk. They actually pushed forward, Fires of Defeat was contested and they had a huge amount of stations on their gate's end. Same with the other eastern Split territories.
With 4.0 but no CoH, TEL and FRF was taking some hit from the XEN. TEL-FRF-thereabouts were changing owners pretty quickly and there was ever-increasing influx of Xenon. Until something happened - maybe material starvation? Suddenly there were only some Xenon stations building up, but no fleets. None.
Then came CoH. No change. Except TEL and FRF started to advance (!) with practically no other ship but builders.
The Matrix #9(?) (one between TEL-FRF anyway) started to see 2-5 builder ships flying about. TEL builders took out Xen K's (!!!) and even occasional I.
And then they built.
Now they have control over the sector, even if there's the Kha'ak hive nearby. TEL made some defense platforms to their end and suddenly its not a Xen sector anymore.
XEN ain't pushing in Hewa's either. They are more or less dormant.
The one XEN sector on Thuruk's Demise? Been quiet since the beginning. Occasional S/M raid to Split territory, which gets shot down quickly.
Terrans? Losing their Intervention Corp Osakas. A lot of them. To a single, sole K's whenever one of those happen to appear in Getsu Fune or The Void.
Occasionally there are some K's flying about in ARG space, but they seem to be headed up somewhere - never attacking anything that doesn't come directly to their range. No escort, no nothing. No challenge.
The *only* exception was when I was about to start the terrarforming plot. There were I and 2 K's + tons and tons and tons of fighters in the Void. They managed to destroy several Behemoths and ARG & ANT defense stations, but I was IS then so it might have been part of the cause. Then come Terran's with an army of Katanas and truckload of fighters. And they were dealt with.
That was about 1 or 2 in-game days ago. Since then? Practically nothing. HOP and PAR are both moving in to Xenon territory without much of an issue. ARG? Well they ain't doing jack. TEL is aggressive in the TEL-FRF-area, moving towards the other Matrix there. No idea what ZYA is doing - seemingly at least buffed their defenses so nothing gets through. IMO, Xenon are weak. Even in Hativkah's they spam those miners and occasional fighter squadrons. Haven't seen one destroyer there for... 2 days? And then there's HAT, ARG and ANT ships taking care of those if ever anyone gets through.
With 4.0 but no CoH, TEL and FRF was taking some hit from the XEN. TEL-FRF-thereabouts were changing owners pretty quickly and there was ever-increasing influx of Xenon. Until something happened - maybe material starvation? Suddenly there were only some Xenon stations building up, but no fleets. None.
Then came CoH. No change. Except TEL and FRF started to advance (!) with practically no other ship but builders.
The Matrix #9(?) (one between TEL-FRF anyway) started to see 2-5 builder ships flying about. TEL builders took out Xen K's (!!!) and even occasional I.
And then they built.
Now they have control over the sector, even if there's the Kha'ak hive nearby. TEL made some defense platforms to their end and suddenly its not a Xen sector anymore.
XEN ain't pushing in Hewa's either. They are more or less dormant.
The one XEN sector on Thuruk's Demise? Been quiet since the beginning. Occasional S/M raid to Split territory, which gets shot down quickly.
Terrans? Losing their Intervention Corp Osakas. A lot of them. To a single, sole K's whenever one of those happen to appear in Getsu Fune or The Void.
Occasionally there are some K's flying about in ARG space, but they seem to be headed up somewhere - never attacking anything that doesn't come directly to their range. No escort, no nothing. No challenge.
The *only* exception was when I was about to start the terrarforming plot. There were I and 2 K's + tons and tons and tons of fighters in the Void. They managed to destroy several Behemoths and ARG & ANT defense stations, but I was IS then so it might have been part of the cause. Then come Terran's with an army of Katanas and truckload of fighters. And they were dealt with.
That was about 1 or 2 in-game days ago. Since then? Practically nothing. HOP and PAR are both moving in to Xenon territory without much of an issue. ARG? Well they ain't doing jack. TEL is aggressive in the TEL-FRF-area, moving towards the other Matrix there. No idea what ZYA is doing - seemingly at least buffed their defenses so nothing gets through. IMO, Xenon are weak. Even in Hativkah's they spam those miners and occasional fighter squadrons. Haven't seen one destroyer there for... 2 days? And then there's HAT, ARG and ANT ships taking care of those if ever anyone gets through.
Re: Make Xenons great again
A few hours without TER fleets. It doesn't help.
Egosoft completely break the game
Egosoft completely break the game
Re: Make Xenons great again
Well we are kinda used to that. What’s sad is, that they just take too long to do something against it. That’s the real problem because by the time they fix the OOS discrepancy, xenons are most likely gone from people’s game and the fix won’t do anything.
Re: Make Xenons great again
There are two different problems with Xenons. First, the OOS discrepancy, mentioned in this thread. The second, and in my opinion the major problem is xenon's economic stagnation in 4.00. I have 3 fully-functional xenon shipyards in my game and several wharfs and I didn't see ANY xenon ship about 3-4 game hours long. No mods, just vanilla game. It's weird, not only in terms of game balance, but lore wise. There must be billions of these drones "somewhere near" and what we are facing are just small part of "xenon armada". The current state of the game breaks all immersion.