Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

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Tempest
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Tempest » Thu, 1. Apr 21, 14:31

as far as the mechanic goes, it seems to be:

- a cluster spawns
- small KHA strikegroups start appearing across the entire sector (using the cluster as some sort of anchor-point)

- destroy the cluster (usually spawning KHA defender craft)
- in-sector KHA spawning stops


edit; to clarify:

a cluster will be identified as " Khaak installation" by Betty

it is a smaller version of the initial installations located in Matrix 451 / Pious Mists / Silent Witness 12

i couldn't wrap my head around this at first, as ive never seen one.

bottom line, trouble spots for miners being harrassed by KHA will have a cluster in-sector somewhere.
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Marco Nero
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Marco Nero » Thu, 1. Apr 21, 19:13

Can for the love of God somebody please explain me this?

https://ibb.co/fXsCcpm


Silicon miners seems to are depleting the Silicon in "Asteroid Belt", i have 110 miners + or -.

I have source Probes in Getsu Fune too, which is pretty rich of Silicon, but the result is this and i'm having serious problem to keep my stations working without Silicon.

PS: my stations are in Mars, so Getsu Fune is perfectly in range for the miners, but in Getsu Fune only goeas the miners which are harvesting Ice or Minerals....the Silicon miners are still mining in Asteroid Belt, coming back to the station with 1 or 6 or 150-200 silicon.

I've stopped playing right now till this will not be fixed....the milions i've spent on my 4 complexes are not usefull without Silicon.

al_dude
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by al_dude » Thu, 1. Apr 21, 19:26

I started using L miners (Split L miner due to its insane speed and 2 L mining turrets). Wyvern has got 9,500 travel speed with ARG engine. 9,500!

Problems lessened greatly. Not going back to M miners once I have the money. Split L miner mines so much faster. And don't need to worry about some Kha'ak or SCA.

Marco Nero
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Marco Nero » Thu, 1. Apr 21, 19:34

I find out what the problem is:

they are mining Silicon with the rest of free cargo space they have, becouse all the other cargo space is full of Mineral, wich are currently not necessary to my station couse it's full...
my god...

M66
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by M66 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 04:54

So I've spent most of today chasing down and destroying khaak installations around my HQ and the 18 Billion region.
I had already given up on M miners, but since I finally managed to get a couple of L-class cap ships, I thought I'd play along and do it "properly".

Mechanically, this is not an enjoyable system to interact with:

- It takes a lot of micromanaging to find the installation in the first place. It may not even be in the system where we see the raids. It might even be in an area we've previously explored but is currently under fog of war. If I use Explore sector, my ships drift about aimlessly. If I set up a ton of spiralling Move To orders or if I want to use my own Long Range Scanner and ping everywhere manually then that's still a very tedious operation. And again - it may turn out that the hive isn't even in the sector where I'm seeing attacks.
- It takes a lot of time to move a sufficient force into position to do anything about it. I'm using two destroyers and though it still takes them forever to take out a single installation, my ships are in zero danger since their shields recharge faster than any incoming damage.
- Even with 4-star destroyer pilots (the best I have to work with), they stagger around, shoot at the empty space between the Khaak structures, sometimes use turrets and sometimes don't, and basically require handholding during their entire attack if I don't want them to take even longer. It's a separate issue, but the AI is having a hard time with this very simple task: Stop moving around, point the ship's bow at the immovable object and put a heavy book down on the FIRE button. If you want to get fancy then they should use RCS/thrusters to do repositioning moves (or withdrawals) while keeping the main battery oriented correctly but I would be happy if they just stopped jittering around.
- I have taken out four or five separate installations. By the time I finished the last one, the khaak were back in the first sector, but not in the same place, so now I need to start looking for them again.

Even after sweeping every sector, I still can't field M miners without expecting to lose them because there's never a grace period between attacks. And before someone says "Well you just need to hunt harder", actually I don't: The dominant strategy is to ignore the hives altogether and just field L miners. It is simply not worth the time to engage with the system.

Surely that isn't the design intention?

Assuming that my save isn't just broken (I started this game on 4.00 before hotfix 1), then maybe there are some things that might help?
- Make it easier to find the installations. Let us build a Deepspace Khaak Detector module or something on a defense platform.
- Reduce the hull hitpoints on the khaak structures. They're not dangerous to take out; they just take forever unless we throw even more resources at them.
- Drastically increase the time between installation spawns. After spending an entire day on this, I have basically nothing to show for it. After all this I'm still down one more M miner (replaced with an invincible L miner now of course) and the khaaks are back in the first system I cleared. If I at least knew I had several dozen hours of respite, it might even have been worth it.

Maybe we're not supposed to be using M miners at all? Like they're supposed to only be valid for the early game and then you outgrow them permanently? Or maybe you're only supposed to use them as ore transports (since they can use highways) in the mid/lategame?

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grapedog
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by grapedog » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 05:11

There are respawn timers on the hives and clusters. I believe i read a hive the big base, is 96 hours. The cluster, the small outpost, i think was 48 hours. And these are game hours. The big hives only spawn in like one of 8 sectors, places like 451 and company regard. Then i believe, within 3 sectors of the hive is where a smaller cluster can spawn. I dont know for sure on the last part.

I just go and manually long range search for em, takes some time though.

LoneStargazer
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by LoneStargazer » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:42

This system is completely broken because you can't currently in anyway automate how you deal with khaak and dealing with them personally is poor use of your time.

Before introducing such a mechanic you need either (or better both):

- To have way to defend against khaak (make ships on patrol command actually respond to threats and defend you assets, right now they just fly randomly. In sectors where mining takes place far away from ecliptic or spread across vast distances like in Asteroid Belt they are even more usless as they don't patrol the actual places where mining happens)

- Make stations automatically restock subordinates (if the intention is taxing the player for mining)

M miners right now are unviable because I'm not going through humdreds of miners to assign each one escorts and monitor their inevitable losses, it's also bad use of resources that could be used for a couple of functional patrols.
Unfurtunatly I have to pause my current save until it either gets fixed or (more likely) a mod comes out to disable khaak entirely.

The idea of putting player miners in some danger is not bad, but the implemetation is purely annoying to gamebreaking point and not well thought out.
Having to constantly spend considerable time to personally find khk stations and deal with them is just wasting limited play time on indecisive, repetitive, unengaging, dull and ultimately futile activities.

SpaceCadet11864
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:01

LoneStargazer wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:42
This system is completely broken because you can't currently in anyway automate how you deal with khaak and dealing with them personally is poor use of your time.

Before introducing such a mechanic you need either (or better both):

- To have way to defend against khaak (make ships on patrol command actually respond to threats and defend you assets, right now they just fly randomly. In sectors where mining takes place far away from ecliptic or spread across vast distances like in Asteroid Belt they are even more usless as they don't patrol the actual places where mining happens)

- Make stations automatically restock subordinates (if the intention is taxing the player for mining)

M miners right now are unviable because I'm not going through humdreds of miners to assign each one escorts and monitor their inevitable losses, it's also bad use of resources that could be used for a couple of functional patrols.
Unfurtunatly I have to pause my current save until it either gets fixed or (more likely) a mod comes out to disable khaak entirely.

The idea of putting player miners in some danger is not bad, but the implemetation is purely annoying to gamebreaking point and not well thought out.
Having to constantly spend considerable time to personally find khk stations and deal with them is just wasting limited play time on indecisive, repetitive, unengaging, dull and ultimately futile activities.
I like the idea of automatic restocking of subordinates, but also you can automate finding khk stations by putting ships on patrol. The patrol ships will find the KHK stations so you dont have to fly around and find them yourself, but that still is better than just sitting there with SETA on.

I mean honestly the only time I have ever had a problem with losing subordinates was when I had SETA on over night and was like damn I lost a lot of subordinates wtf happened. I just dont play the game with SETA and honestly it just turns into an autoclicker at that point. I used to play with SETA on over night all the time and really it just makes the game pointless, the money is great but you could have made way more money and progress actually playing the game, and the other factions wouldnt get further advanced to the point of spamming stations everywhere but I'm sorry I digress.

just use patrols and they'll find the KHK stations, then send a fleet to clean them out.

Still I love the idea of making stations automatically restock mining ships

XGamer
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by XGamer » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:24

LoneStargazer wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:42
This system is completely broken because you can't currently in anyway automate how you deal with khaak and dealing with them personally is poor use of your time.

Before introducing such a mechanic you need either (or better both):

- To have way to defend against khaak (make ships on patrol command actually respond to threats and defend you assets, right now they just fly randomly. In sectors where mining takes place far away from ecliptic or spread across vast distances like in Asteroid Belt they are even more usless as they don't patrol the actual places where mining happens)

- Make stations automatically restock subordinates (if the intention is taxing the player for mining)

M miners right now are unviable because I'm not going through humdreds of miners to assign each one escorts and monitor their inevitable losses, it's also bad use of resources that could be used for a couple of functional patrols.
Unfurtunatly I have to pause my current save until it either gets fixed or (more likely) a mod comes out to disable khaak entirely.

The idea of putting player miners in some danger is not bad, but the implemetation is purely annoying to gamebreaking point and not well thought out.
Having to constantly spend considerable time to personally find khk stations and deal with them is just wasting limited play time on indecisive, repetitive, unengaging, dull and ultimately futile activities.
Cannot agree more
X:BtF: 7/10 | X2: 8/10 | X3:R/TC/AP: 8/10 | X:R: 3/10 | X4: 0/10 (3 points for split ships and stations, 4.0 -> -50 points).
If you are raising pirate activity, give me meaningful ways to deal with them PERMANENTLY. Better things to do than replacing ships every 10 minutes, or babysitting ships getting harassed.
Stopped playing X4 with 4.0 due to outrageous, needless and pointless nerfs to everything. Don't change what wasn't broken in the first place.

aquatica
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by aquatica » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 22:09

I have issues with the fact that we cannot choose which kind of enemy to ignore and which not.

I'm not worried about Hive Guards or similar on my L miners, they handle those easily. However when there's that damn pirate Rattlesnake (!) or SCA Behemoth (wtf, they used to have Teladi ships before?!) raiding on my mining stuff it's pointless.
Luckily those are *very* rarely anywhere near my miners, but they do harass my traders bad.

Also even on top of this, we'd need to have trade ships to simply IGNORE pirates. Now if I have them on Escape, they stop their travel mode and select the nearest station - giving time to the pirates to actually do piracy and kill my ships. If they would simply ignore the demands and NOT STOP, they'd survive easily - Boa can outrun almost anything. Except when they are harrassed by pirates, they stop and try to make a run for it -> recharging travel engine takes more time than it takes to be blown up. Why they don't even deploy mines or laser towers?

sanas
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by sanas » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 22:39

M66 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 04:54
So I've spent most of today chasing down and destroying khaak installations around my HQ and the 18 Billion region.
I had already given up on M miners, but since I finally managed to get a couple of L-class cap ships, I thought I'd play along and do it "properly".

Mechanically, this is not an enjoyable system to interact with:

- It takes a lot of micromanaging to find the installation in the first place. It may not even be in the system where we see the raids. It might even be in an area we've previously explored but is currently under fog of war. If I use Explore sector, my ships drift about aimlessly. If I set up a ton of spiralling Move To orders or if I want to use my own Long Range Scanner and ping everywhere manually then that's still a very tedious operation. And again - it may turn out that the hive isn't even in the sector where I'm seeing attacks.
- It takes a lot of time to move a sufficient force into position to do anything about it. I'm using two destroyers and though it still takes them forever to take out a single installation, my ships are in zero danger since their shields recharge faster than any incoming damage.
- Even with 4-star destroyer pilots (the best I have to work with), they stagger around, shoot at the empty space between the Khaak structures, sometimes use turrets and sometimes don't, and basically require handholding during their entire attack if I don't want them to take even longer. It's a separate issue, but the AI is having a hard time with this very simple task: Stop moving around, point the ship's bow at the immovable object and put a heavy book down on the FIRE button. If you want to get fancy then they should use RCS/thrusters to do repositioning moves (or withdrawals) while keeping the main battery oriented correctly but I would be happy if they just stopped jittering around.
- I have taken out four or five separate installations. By the time I finished the last one, the khaak were back in the first sector, but not in the same place, so now I need to start looking for them again.

Even after sweeping every sector, I still can't field M miners without expecting to lose them because there's never a grace period between attacks. And before someone says "Well you just need to hunt harder", actually I don't: The dominant strategy is to ignore the hives altogether and just field L miners. It is simply not worth the time to engage with the system.

Surely that isn't the design intention?

Assuming that my save isn't just broken (I started this game on 4.00 before hotfix 1), then maybe there are some things that might help?
- Make it easier to find the installations. Let us build a Deepspace Khaak Detector module or something on a defense platform.
- Reduce the hull hitpoints on the khaak structures. They're not dangerous to take out; they just take forever unless we throw even more resources at them.
- Drastically increase the time between installation spawns. After spending an entire day on this, I have basically nothing to show for it. After all this I'm still down one more M miner (replaced with an invincible L miner now of course) and the khaaks are back in the first system I cleared. If I at least knew I had several dozen hours of respite, it might even have been worth it.

Maybe we're not supposed to be using M miners at all? Like they're supposed to only be valid for the early game and then you outgrow them permanently? Or maybe you're only supposed to use them as ore transports (since they can use highways) in the mid/lategame?
Try to "place construction site " and you see blocked place where is haak station.

For all players i recommend dont asume miners to station, create indepedent mining fleet for every resource separately 1 fleet - ore 2 - silicon etc. It will be work very fine also they can trade resource to npc station or your in big gate radius. Use main ship for every resource and other give mimic command.


And my very important question - how strong we need resource probe? They realy give productivity or it more to inform player. Also they affect to game perfomance? Or i can place million probes every 10 km in every system?

Raevyan
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Raevyan » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 22:41

Also the khaak Installation in Matrix #451 seems to be invulnerable...

M66
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by M66 » Mon, 5. Apr 21, 02:20

sanas wrote:
Sun, 4. Apr 21, 22:39
Try to "place construction site " and you see blocked place where is haak station.
Omg, you're right... :o that's hilarious! Thanks haha

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Old Drullo321
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Old Drullo321 » Wed, 22. Sep 21, 02:24

I don't really want to necro this thread but as of patch 4.10 is out and no realy changes in this regard, are there any plans in the future to implement some of the mentioned ideas or adjust the way to deal with Khaak in a more automatic way?

It is fun the first couple of times to find and deal with the hive and the raid station. It also is fine that you should not ignore this threat or it gets worse. However searching for one of those stations the 10th time is boring and tedious. I don't want to waste time to manually command 10 scouts sector to sector, teleport to them, look around, teleport to the next and when i found the station just send my armada of destroyers to quickly destroy it just to get annoyed two hours later with the next station. While there are many reasons to use each of the L and M miners, the current Khaak implementation and the lack of automated ways to replace M miner losses practically removes any use for M miners, you could just delete the blueprints...

Also it is hilarious that even when the local sector owner faction is somewhat aware of those stations, even in terran space, by having laser towers, satellites or (before they die) police right beside the Kha'ak station, the local forces never try to deal with this threat. In asteroid belt there are like dozens of Terran destroyers with hundreds of assigned S and M ships just 20km away and they don't do anything against that well known Kha'ak station.

This is such a no-fun annoyance, please do something @ Egosoft. Any of the previously mentioned ideas would work.

Treycore
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Treycore » Wed, 22. Sep 21, 03:36

I’m all for the khaak, and subsequent danger to miners but respawn timers after destroying a khaak hive should be longer, we deserve a break/reward for hunting down installations

Also looking through the khaak files, it seems khaak react more to player actions then NPCs and this to me violates the nature of the sandbox, they should be equally reactive to NPCs and players

Also would be nice for the AI to actually respond to khaak installations and attack them

And the hives should spawn a bit closer, they spawn wayyyyy to far out of the bounds of the sector

Tempest
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Re: Ego soft needs to fix mining and khaak fast.

Post by Tempest » Wed, 22. Sep 21, 11:18

Wish we could see actual numbers for KHA being tackled by sector patrols, i have a feeling they ARE doing a somewhat decent job, but we only see trouble areas.

i've been watching 3 strikegroups in my shipyard sector attacking traffic, my sector patrols are all mimic'd and cover a quite decent area, but it will take them a while to eventually arrive at the spot where i need them (too long for anything below L-class hull)

Ai will usually send a pair of destroyers + some random S/M to the installations, but they''ll literally take forever to destroy it. (haven't timed a solo Asgard OOS vs. installation, but 30minutes and upwards seems a fair estimate)

actively engaging enemies that are in sensor range would be ideal, but it feels like this might put extra "strain" on the simulation.

always seems to come down to Ai behaviour... (i'd happily deploy a dedicated machine for Ai calculations, no question, worked miracles for ARMA3. one can dream i suppose.)
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