Mining M-Turret vs. L-Turret vs. M drill

[dholmstr]

So I have mostly used the Crane for mining ships to my factories, the 3 shields mean it'll prolly never go boom from small ships. However the Crane only has M turrets for mining while the others have L size. What is the difference, does it show up OOS, and do them miningdrones actually anything? Is there a big differerns in mining time?
For M ships, the gun or the turrets, same question.

[Falcrack]

I too am interested to know, if adding extra mining turrets and extra mining drones will make them mine any faster OOS, I would feel better about adding them. Otherwise I would add more defensive turrets and defense drones. I know at least one mining laser is required, and at least one mining drone for large mineral miners.

[dholmstr]

So noone has any idea how these work?

[Imperial Good]

From what I can tell the logic appears to be implemented natively into the X4 engine, possibly for performance, and so is a black box.

Based on the patch notes, developer comments and findings from people on discord the following seems to influence mining speed.

• Asteroid DPS (since 4.00). Mining lasers are needed and better might speed things up.
• Flight speed. Faster is better. This could be due to reducing travel time but some people think it may impact mining speed.
• Crew skill. By far the biggest influence on mining speed. Some people report that 5 star perfect ships mine orders of magnitude faster than unskilled identical ships.
• Resource density. Higher resource density in the zone means faster mining.

L miners apparently mine extremely fast. With a skilled crew they do not even need much loadout since crew skill seems to dominate other factors.

[dholmstr]

From what I can tell the logic appears to be implemented natively into the X4 engine, possibly for performance, and so is a black box.

Based on the patch notes, developer comments and findings from people on discord the following seems to influence mining speed.

• Asteroid DPS (since 4.00). Mining lasers are needed and better might speed things up.
• Flight speed. Faster is better. This could be due to reducing travel time but some people think it may impact mining speed.
• Crew skill. By far the biggest influence on mining speed. Some people report that 5 star perfect ships mine orders of magnitude faster than unskilled identical ships.
• Resource density. Higher resource density in the zone means faster mining.

L miners apparently mine extremely fast. With a skilled crew they do not even need much loadout since crew skill seems to dominate other factors.

Do you mean L ship miners or L-turrets?

[Imperial Good]

Mining turrets count towards mining DPS so using some of the above guidelines would mean faster mining. If the reduction in DPS from having M mining turrets only instead of L is meaningful would need to be tested. With a skilled crew it likely is not.

[arshiba]

From what I can tell the logic appears to be implemented natively into the X4 engine, possibly for performance, and so is a black box.

Partially true. The final gather rate calculation is hidden, but the efficiency can be overriden in the aiscript.
I spent several hours equipping different ships with different loadouts to compare them.

First results. Mining efficiency is disabled, that is, perfect (pre 4.00 version behaviour).
My optimal M ship loadout: ARG Drill; weapon - mining mk2; turrets - 2x mining mk1; engine - 2x ARG combat mk2; other don't matter.
My optimal L ship loadout: ARG Magnetar; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 6x ARG pulse mk1; engine - 2x ARG all-around mk1; 8 mining drones; other don't matter.
Test environment: silicon ore, Grand Exchange I, 3.7 unit/mk3.
My optimal ships gave the same absolute gather rate 7.1 silicon per second. From now, I will measure the gather rate relative to this. So optimal is 100%.

ARG Drill tests..
Weapon: mining mk2 - 100%; mining mk1 - 78%; no (only turrets) - 57%.
Turrets: 2x mining mk2 - 100%; 1x mining mk1 - 99%; no (only weapon) - 98%.
Engines: 2x ARG combat mk2 - 100%; 2x ARG combat mk1 - 85%; 2x ARG combat mk3 - 109%; 2x ARG all-around mk2 - 96%; 2x ARG travel mk2 - 96%; 2x TEL combat mk2 - 98%; 2x PAR combat mk2 - 102%; 2x TER combat mk2 - 87%; 2x SPL combat mk2 - 127%; 2x SPL combat mk3 - 138%; 2x SPL combat mk4 - 143%.

Different M ships with two variants: native loadout (only engines matter) and reequipped with argon loadout.
TER Bolo: 2x TER combat mk2 - 67%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 76%.
TEL Manorina: 2x TEL combat mk2 - 58%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 59%.
PAR Plutus: 2x PAR combat mk2 - 85%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 83%.
SPL Alligator: 2x SPL combat mk2 - 185%; 2x SPL combat mk3 - 200%; 2x SPL combat mk4 - 166% (very strange); 2x ARG combat mk2 - 148%.

ARG Magnetar tests..
Large turret: 1x mining mk1 - 100%; no - 29%.
Drones: 8x - 100%; 10x - 116%; 5x - 83%; 2x - 55%; 1x - 38%.
Engines: 2x ARG all-around mk1 - 100%; 2x SPL all-around mk1 - 90%. Something weird here (strange correlation with drones) and i'm tired to continue.

Different L ships with only one variant - native (i'm very tired).
TEL Crane - 78%: no large turret; medium turrets - 9x mining mk1; 3x TEL all-around mk1; 8 drones.
PAR Chthonios - 118%; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 6x mining mk1; 3x PAR all-around mk1; 8 drones.
SPL Wyvern - 126%; large turrets - 2x mining mk1; medium turrets - 8x pulse mk1; 3x SPL all-around mk1; 8 drones.
TER Hokkaido - 77%; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 8x pulse mk1; 1x TER all-around mk1; 8 drones.

Final results. Mining efficiency is enabled. I'm using script to override crew combined skill. I would like to emphasize that the skill of the entire crew, not just the pilot, in normal gameplay. Ware is silicon, other wares will give less dismal results!
With probe nearby: 5 star - 96%; 4 star - 85%; 3 star - 61%; 2 star - 29%; 1 star - 14%.
Without probe nearby: 5 star - 88%; 4 star - 71%; 3 star - 45%; 2 star - 22%; 1 star - 14%.

[Alkeena]

From what I can tell the logic appears to be implemented natively into the X4 engine, possibly for performance, and so is a black box.

Partially true. The final gather rate calculation is hidden, but the efficiency can be overriden in the aiscript.
I spent several hours equipping different ships with different loadouts to compare them.

First results. Mining efficiency is disabled, that is, perfect (pre 4.00 version behaviour).
My optimal M ship loadout: ARG Drill; weapon - mining mk2; turrets - 2x mining mk1; engine - 2x ARG combat mk2; other don't matter.
My optimal L ship loadout: ARG Magnetar; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 6x ARG pulse mk1; engine - 2x ARG all-around mk1; 8 mining drones; other don't matter.
Test environment: silicon ore, Grand Exchange I, 3.7 unit/mk3.
My optimal ships gave the same absolute gather rate 7.1 silicon per second. From now, I will measure the gather rate relative to this. So optimal is 100%.

ARG Drill tests..
Weapon: mining mk2 - 100%; mining mk1 - 78%; no (only turrets) - 57%.
Turrets: 2x mining mk2 - 100%; 1x mining mk1 - 99%; no (only weapon) - 98%.
Engines: 2x ARG combat mk2 - 100%; 2x ARG combat mk1 - 85%; 2x ARG combat mk3 - 109%; 2x ARG all-around mk2 - 96%; 2x ARG travel mk2 - 96%; 2x TEL combat mk2 - 98%; 2x PAR combat mk2 - 102%; 2x TER combat mk2 - 87%; 2x SPL combat mk2 - 127%; 2x SPL combat mk3 - 138%; 2x SPL combat mk4 - 143%.

Different M ships with two variants: native loadout (only engines matter) and reequipped with argon loadout.
TER Bolo: 2x TER combat mk2 - 67%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 76%.
TEL Manorina: 2x TEL combat mk2 - 58%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 59%.
PAR Plutus: 2x PAR combat mk2 - 85%; 2x ARG combat mk2 - 83%.
SPL Alligator: 2x SPL combat mk2 - 185%; 2x SPL combat mk3 - 200%; 2x SPL combat mk4 - 166% (very strange); 2x ARG combat mk2 - 148%.

ARG Magnetar tests..
Large turret: 1x mining mk1 - 100%; no - 29%.
Drones: 8x - 100%; 10x - 116%; 5x - 83%; 2x - 55%; 1x - 38%.
Engines: 2x ARG all-around mk1 - 100%; 2x SPL all-around mk1 - 90%. Something weird here (strange correlation with drones) and i'm tired to continue.

Different L ships with only one variant - native (i'm very tired).
TEL Crane - 78%: no large turret; medium turrets - 9x mining mk1; 3x TEL all-around mk1; 8 drones.
PAR Chthonios - 118%; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 6x mining mk1; 3x PAR all-around mk1; 8 drones.
SPL Wyvern - 126%; large turrets - 2x mining mk1; medium turrets - 8x pulse mk1; 3x SPL all-around mk1; 8 drones.
TER Hokkaido - 77%; large turret - 1x mining mk1; medium turrets - 8x pulse mk1; 1x TER all-around mk1; 8 drones.

Final results. Mining efficiency is enabled. I'm using script to override crew combined skill. I would like to emphasize that the skill of the entire crew, not just the pilot, in normal gameplay. Ware is silicon, other wares will give less dismal results!
With probe nearby: 5 star - 96%; 4 star - 85%; 3 star - 61%; 2 star - 29%; 1 star - 14%.
Without probe nearby: 5 star - 88%; 4 star - 71%; 3 star - 45%; 2 star - 22%; 1 star - 14%.

Absolutely fantastic work. Thankyou so much!

[Imperial Good]

Why combat engines and not travel engines? Also I assume you repeated the tests multiple times to make sure the results were consistent? Or were you using debug messages to view internal script values?

[arshiba]

Why combat engines and not travel engines?

My personal preference based on game experience. Main reason - pirate harassments. Combat engines have 0 delay to go to travel mode, so a miner or trader has a better chance to escape.

Or were you using debug messages to view internal script values?

Yes, I'm using the result of the get_resource_gatherrate method. The only problem is that it wants a full ship as a reference object, so it is faster to prepare ships in the usual way than to create them with a script. But the internal calculations are hidden in X4.exe.

[duncan idaho]

This really emphasizes how important good crew are, and makes it even more frustrating that getting good crew within a reasonable time without mods is next to impossible, at least for pilots (and please don't tell me to go grind satellite placement missions, I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a rusty spoon!)

[dholmstr]

So does that test show that a L-turret drill is much better than many M-turret drills? Really to many other variables there, it's not wrong to test but very hard to cramp down in those % all over the place.

[Alkeena]

So does that test show that a L-turret drill is much better than many M-turret drills? Really to many other variables there, it's not wrong to test but very hard to cramp down in those % all over the place.

These looks like the most important lines in that dimension:

ARG Drill tests..
Weapon: mining mk2 - 100%; mining mk1 - 78%; no (only turrets) - 57%.
Turrets: 2x mining mk2 - 100%; 1x mining mk1 - 99%; no (only weapon) - 98%.

See how turrets add effectively nothing to efficiency (when you already have a main mining laser)? I interpret that as clear evidence for a mining efficiency cliff. You need enough mining power to break the rock. Less than the required amount and things take a lot longer (57% with just turrets). Have enough mining power (just the main miner -- 98% ) then you break the rock quickly and adding more mining power doesn't actually help (adding two turrets to the main mining laser just nets you a 2% improvement); the rock is already broken.

I think that's also why the optimal L miner appeared to be a single L mining laser with a bunch of pulse turrets instead of mining turrets. Your option is basically one big laser, or a bunch of turrets. Both at the same time is overkill.

[dholmstr]

So does that test show that a L-turret drill is much better than many M-turret drills? Really to many other variables there, it's not wrong to test but very hard to cramp down in those % all over the place.

These looks like the most important lines in that dimension:

ARG Drill tests..
Weapon: mining mk2 - 100%; mining mk1 - 78%; no (only turrets) - 57%.
Turrets: 2x mining mk2 - 100%; 1x mining mk1 - 99%; no (only weapon) - 98%.

See how turrets add effectively nothing to efficiency (when you already have a main mining laser)? I interpret that as clear evidence for a mining efficiency cliff. You need enough mining power to break the rock. Less than the required amount and things take a lot longer (57% with just turrets). Have enough mining power (just the main miner -- 98% ) then you break the rock quickly and adding more mining power doesn't actually help (adding two turrets to the main mining laser just nets you a 2% improvement); the rock is already broken.

I think that's also why the optimal L miner appeared to be a single L mining laser with a bunch of pulse turrets instead of mining turrets. Your option is basically one big laser, or a bunch of turrets. Both at the same time is overkill.

Meh, that seems to say that the Crane with no L-turret drill is damn to fail compared to others with one. Then we have the movement speed...

[arshiba]

Meh, that seems to say that the Crane with no L-turret drill is damn to fail compared to others with one. Then we have the movement speed...

Hm.. look at Hokkaido.
And, don't forget about the things that I called "don't matter" for the pure gather rate efficiency, but they do matter to the overall mining operation effectiveness (like the double volume of the cargo hold).

[elektrohawk]

Meh, that seems to say that the Crane with no L-turret drill is damn to fail compared to others with one. Then we have the movement speed...

Hm.. look at Hokkaido.
And, don't forget about the things that I called "don't matter" for the pure gather rate efficiency, but they do matter to the overall mining operation effectiveness (like the double volume of the cargo hold).

At least in the case of the wyvern though, the speed should really help to offset the smaller ore hold, still interesting

[Raptor34]

Meh, that seems to say that the Crane with no L-turret drill is damn to fail compared to others with one. Then we have the movement speed...

Hm.. look at Hokkaido.
And, don't forget about the things that I called "don't matter" for the pure gather rate efficiency, but they do matter to the overall mining operation effectiveness (like the double volume of the cargo hold).

Considering the indirect nerf to M miners though, smaller cargo holds but faster speeds might actually be worthwhile.
Might be a good idea to add some Wyverns to my mining fleet.

[thomasbkdk]

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread, i could be wrong.

Also have in mind that there is a weapon mod that can be installed that increases yields from mining by >425%
It could be worth wile investing in.

[dholmstr]

I don't think it has been mentioned in this thread, i could be wrong.

Also have in mind that there is a weapon mod that can be installed that increases yields from mining by >425%
It could be worth wile investing in.

It prolly is, and that's another reason why I think a L miningturret is better. I just need to upgrade 1 turret and not several. As I have problems getting enough modmaterial (high evergy... somethign something...) and you need 3 for one weapong upgrade

[thomasbkdk]

I camp a fighter at stations close to xenon choke points where there often are battles. Then i periodicly check the area and have the fighter pick up loot drops. Then when it feels worth wile i teleport to the fighter and get the loot from the pilots inventory.