[Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

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MSterling
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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 01:12

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 12:24
If the overheating is your main problem with Beam weapona
No, the issue is that the heating of the beam weapon is about 24/second which is quite low, but 1000MJ for the shot. So if you hold for 3 seconds, that is 1072MJ of heat. Shoot six times in those three seconds and that is, assuming it rounds down, 6000MJ of heating.

That's a big difference.

Burst lasers don't do that, so you can pip a shot and if it is losing lock, stop.
When I use laser towers I don't expect them to hit anything at all. Nice if they do of course, but it's not essential.
I don't either, which is why I find those medium difficulty options to clear a laser tower field rather laughable. They'd be worth using if they could hit, but they can't, so they aren't. Not even as a distraction, because you can't hotkey their launch and if you do it anyway, then you could just as easily run away and drop a couple of FoF mines. Happy boom boom times. And for half the cost. Mines aren't actually that worthwile either, though they DO make a useful area interdiction, but since this is three dimensional space, you have to basically pretend that there are chokepoints. Dropping a few in front of a gate to the Xenon after you've noped out of the sector because of a pack of Ps and Ks coming through would be funny to record, though...

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by Rei Ayanami » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 02:37

You mean something like this? (Freespace 2 game, the enemy ship beam tries 3 times to shoot at the player)
https://youtu.be/i3x5YTw2lbE?t=558

Adding an "inaccuracy" parameter to beam weapons, to give a random offset to their aiming angle, could be quite interesting.

Beam cannons that should be pin-point accurate (S sized beams) could just use "0" as their inaccurracy value.

For M or L-sized beams adding a random angle offset could balance out higher fire power. Especially L beam turrets really need an improvement firepower-wise (right now they are laughable), adding inaccuracy would be a good balancing point where they are strong enough vs large targets and able to hit them (a few degrees off will still hit a capital ship), but too inaccurate vs small ships.

Also, if used against the player random angle beams are exiting to dodge. :D

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:03

MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 01:12
Shoot six times in those three seconds and that is, assuming it rounds down, 6000MJ of heating.
That would be an incredibly odd way to use a beam weapon. Don't think I've ever once done that in over 4000 hours of X4. Why would anyone do that? Far, far better just to hold the trigger down for those 3 seconds.
They'd be worth using if they could hit, but they can't, so they aren't. Not even as a distraction, because you can't hotkey their launch and if you do it anyway, then you could just as easily run away and drop a couple of FoF mines. Happy boom boom times. And for half the cost.
I use the Ship Interactions screen to deploy them. It is a bit cumbersome (posted a request about that a few days ago:viewtopic.php?f=146&t=433305, would welcome your input on that thread if it interests you), but can still deploy a bunch of them in relatively quick succession. F/F mines are essentially useless for this - might damage the enemy more but they won't distract them after they've gone boom. As for the cost, the distraction caused by laser towers is well worth double the cost of using mines instead. I'm also generally not using them in situations where I'm running away. More often than not I'm still continuing to attack ships around me, I just need some other friendly assets in my immediate vicinity to take some of the heat off me. Frankly anything will do if it encourages the enemy to shoot at it rather than me. I also launch drones and/or S fighters in such circumstances if I have them available. They however take considerably longer to deploy since each one has to be launched through an S dock, whereas mk1 laser towers are dumped out the airlock which cycles much quicker. Laser towers can also be deployed by any ship, not just those with an S dock.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:40

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:03
MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 01:12
Shoot six times in those three seconds and that is, assuming it rounds down, 6000MJ of heating.

That would be an incredibly odd way to use a beam weapon. Don't think I've ever once done that in over 4000 hours of X4. Why would anyone do that? Far, far better just to hold the trigger down for those 3 seconds.
That is what you need to do when you find a shot is missing.
I use the Ship Interactions screen to deploy them. It is a bit cumbersome (posted a request about that a few days ago:viewtopic.php?f=146&t=433305, would welcome your input on that thread if it interests you), but can still deploy a bunch of them in relatively quick succession. F/F mines are essentially useless for this - might damage the enemy more but they won't distract them after they've gone boom. As for the cost, the distraction caused by laser towers is well worth double the cost of using mines instead. I'm also generally not using them in situations where I'm running away. More often than not I'm still continuing to attack ships around me, I just need some other friendly assets in my immediate vicinity to take some of the heat off me. Frankly anything will do if it encourages the enemy to shoot at it rather than me. I also launch drones and/or S fighters in such circumstances if I have them available. They however take considerably longer to deploy since each one has to be launched through an S dock, whereas mk1 laser towers are dumped out the airlock which cycles much quicker. Laser towers can also be deployed by any ship, not just those with an S dock.

Aye, and if you do it anyway, as you say you clearly do, and as I CLEARLY SAID ALREADY: might as well drop a mine instead. It won't waste your time and will remove the flies chasing you.
Last edited by MSterling on Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:52

MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:40
Aye, and if you do it anyway, as you say you clearly do, and as I CLEARLY SAID ALREADY: might as well drop a mine instead. It won't waste your time and will remove the flies chasing you.
Have tried the mines, don't like them. In practice they're simply not as effective as laser towers in this regard (if they were that's what I'd be using instead). Also unsure why you think the laser towers are 'wasting my time'? They're doing precisely what I want them to - floating near my ship & being shot at.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:59

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:52
MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:40
Aye, and if you do it anyway, as you say you clearly do, and as I CLEARLY SAID ALREADY: might as well drop a mine instead. It won't waste your time and will remove the flies chasing you.
Have tried the mines, don't like them.
That is a reason for YOU not to use them. I don't either, but I also don't use lasertowers. Because they don't work. Which is much more a rational reason for not using them. It at least provides an option as to how to change the situation, whereas what would change someone to liking mines if they just don't like them now?
In practice they're simply not as effective as laser towers in this regard
No, you agree that they don't work. At least you did in the first response to me.
(if they were that's what I'd be using instead)
No, that isn't what you said just a few words ago, you said you didn't like them.
Also unsure why you think the laser towers are 'wasting my time'? They're doing precisely what I want them to - floating near my ship & being shot at.
No, they only get shot at if they are considered a threat by, oh, hitting them.

Why not use mines: they do exactly what you need: remove the thing doing the shooty shoot bang bang stuff at you.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:08

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:52
MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:40
Aye, and if you do it anyway, as you say you clearly do, and as I CLEARLY SAID ALREADY: might as well drop a mine instead. It won't waste your time and will remove the flies chasing you.
Have tried the mines, don't like them. In practice they're simply not as effective as laser towers in this regard (if they were that's what I'd be using instead). Also unsure why you think the laser towers are 'wasting my time'? They're doing precisely what I want them to - floating near my ship & being shot at.
Another option for lasertowers is to increase their range. Sure it won't make the mission to destroy laser towers any harder because they aren't hostile to you until you start shooting, and you start shooting generally within the current range of the lasertowers anyway, and it is their rating onto you that makes them meaningless as a threat.

However, you could use them tactically, if they had a 10km range (as an example). You would drop them down, facing the way you are headed, toward the enemy you are 14km away from, and you move to attack, you meet after the towers range in on them, and they ping the target. At 10km, they can rate onto those ships at that range, but if it decides to rush toward the tower, it likely will survive unless it is poorly armoured, but it takes one enemy out of current action against you. It could be used by all races, including Xenon, to defend stations from about the range that mainship batteries operate, meaning you have to remove them first to open a bombardment of an emplacement. That is kinda what such defensive structures should be doing: slowing down attacks before the defenses are in danger. The minefields on the Normandy beaches weren't there to blow people up, they had guns to do that, they were there to slow things down and keep them on the beaches while engineers and minclearing machines deloused what had always been clearly labelled "Minefield" and had mines in them (if you faked it out merely to save a few mines, then you would put a doubt in minefields and if you had used that fake out again, then the fake minefield did nothing at all but make you think you would have time and prove too late it did not.

EMP mines could prove a useful area interdiction to destroyer fleets, by shutting down engines and shields of affected capital ships, making them vulnerable and unable, even if the only effect was engine shutdown, to proceed to bombard positions, but if it shut down shields, also make them vulnerable to normal fire they would previously ignore for a minute or two. You would have the fleet either stopped and vulnerable or having to send in something to clear the minefield, during which time a rescue fleet for the station being attacked can get there and turn it from a problem for the station because it was surrounded, into a problem for the attacker, who are now pinned against the station guns and minefield interdiction on one side and the rescue fleet's guns on the other.

If this sort of tactic works, then it provides another class of ship, one that has more guns to the sides than forward pointing, so that it can screen and defend the fleet as it has to present its side between two opposing forces. The best defense is a good offence works in naval tactics and many military situations, because if you can point a gun at the enemy they won't rush in so quickly, or at all. See the pikemen.
Last edited by MSterling on Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:15

MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:59
No, you agree that they don't work. At least you did in the first response to me.
No, that is simply untrue - I DO NOT agree they don't work. They work exactly the way I want them to, they are a DISTRACTION for the enemy - I often see them shooting at my laser towers rather than my ship. That is sufficiently useful for me to carry them & deploy as needed.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:17

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:15
MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 13:59
No, you agree that they don't work. At least you did in the first response to me.
No, that is simply untrue - I DO NOT agree they don't work.
No, you are wrong, you 100% said they do not work.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:34

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:26
When I use laser towers I don't expect them to hit anything at all
Yes, "they don't work" is what you said right there. You assert that they get targeted, but they won't unless the AI is picking targets on first encounter, for the same reason you wait until the bigger ship you don't know you can defeat for sure, is engaged with another target. Even if they change to you after you give 'em a wallop, you get a free hit until you hit them hard enough to make them change targets, and then you get the time they take to reorient on you.

Know what you could have done? Drop a mine and run straight away. The AI will chase you onto the mine. You don't even have to take time to shoot them.

Of course you could say you tried it and maybe you did, maybe you didn't, but it could be hard to make it a direct line so that the enemy passes the mine close enough to detonate.

However it is hard to make the AI choose to shoot a single beam laser that isn't actually firing yet because it can't rate, and even when it does orient, aren't expected to land a hit in an entire combat.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:55

Rei Ayanami wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 02:37
You mean something like this? (Freespace 2 game, the enemy ship beam tries 3 times to shoot at the player)
I am reminded of the many "X does ragequit" youtube twitch videos there are for (I'm blanking the name now, the RTS squad based game where UFOs land and take over the word), where the game says you have 95% chance of hitting, with a machine gun, at 5m range, and miss entirely.

People would LOVE being missed by large beams.

They would RAGEQUIT AND BURN DOWN EGOSOFT if they lost their new Terran SuperDuperShootyBeamBoy ship because the large beams it was armed with never hit the first two times it shot at a new target.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 17:56

MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:34
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 14:26
When I use laser towers I don't expect them to hit anything at all
Yes, "they don't work" is what you said right there.
This is what I mean about them working as a distraction & that laser towers hitting anything is just a nice bonus:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ycff7u1lrfene ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Those laser towers are not shooting at anything right now (think the red beam visible in that screenshot is from an enemy fighter that's shooting at a laser tower, rather than the other way round). Nevertheless they're still distracting around 1/3 of the enemy fighters near my ship:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l2cfmx6ig1244 ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Incidentally, damn glad they're shooting those laser towers instead of me - no shields, only about 50% of my hull intact, fewer functional turrets than I'd ideally like & just spotted another ANT destroyer is headed my way...

Edit: same battle a few minutes later:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0kdrekrbqh13k ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Most of my laser towers have now been destroyed, but they served their purpose - bought me time to get fighters of my own into the battle (launching them is agonisingly slow through a Rattler's single S dock). Hull is currently 22% & engines are barely functional. Entirely possible that without those towers my ship would not have survived the encounter.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by -=SiR KiLLaLoT=- » Tue, 23. Feb 21, 23:54

Max Bain wrote:
Mon, 22. Feb 21, 09:25
I would like to ask, to make the angle parameter also available (and work) for beam weapons.
Actually, the angle parameter has no effect for bullets which are beams. This makes them insta hit weapons and therefore, beam weapons need to have very low dps, because if not, they would be too overpowered against small ships. I guess that is the reason, why in vanilla, all beam weapons have so tiny damage. It also makes it impossible for modders, to make beam weapons against larger ships without breaking the balance.
Technically, I dont see why this should not be possible.
A while ago I created a video using the laser in dragon ships.
Strange things happen :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
I leave it here "for laser science".

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 16:39

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 17:56
This is what I mean about them working as a distraction & that laser towers hitting anything is just a nice bonus:
And what I mean about them NOT working is they don't hit, nor are they targeted unless the AI decides that you haven't hit them and that they randomly decide to attack a target that isn't a threat to them at all.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by Max Bain » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 17:24

Now with Beta 9 Khaak do have working defense turrets. And this makes this thread more important because their DPS is only 115 which is laughable vs. large and xlarge ships which have several times more dps per turret.

So increasing their dps would be good while making their beam turrets still not overpowered vs. smaller ships thus, thus making the angle parameter work on beam turrets as well and making the khaak beam turret inaccurate.
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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by Shuulo » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 17:47

MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 01:04
Either it is clearly for a mod or clearly not possible to do as a mod.
He meant that mod cannot change hardcoded limit for not working "angle" parameter for beam bullet file.
Only devs can enable this, and IMO it was quite obvious that this was a request to change some technical stuff, not in-game.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by j.harshaw » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 19:05

Max Bain wrote:
Wed, 24. Feb 21, 17:24
thus making the angle parameter work on beam turrets as well and making the khaak beam turret inaccurate.
check out timediff on the bullet definition. not exactly the same as angle, but you might find it interesting.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by Max Bain » Wed, 24. Feb 21, 19:39

j.harshaw wrote:
Wed, 24. Feb 21, 19:05
Max Bain wrote:
Wed, 24. Feb 21, 17:24
thus making the angle parameter work on beam turrets as well and making the khaak beam turret inaccurate.
check out timediff on the bullet definition. not exactly the same as angle, but you might find it interesting.
Hi,

thank you for your answer and help. I have just tested to increase the timediff value and somehow it indeep helps! I guess it makes the weapon shoot with a delay and if the target has moved in that time the projectile might miss (except if it flies towards or ayway). I was in the impresion, that the targeting would consider the delay and aim in front of the target. I think I was wrong.

I think I can work with that - thanks!.

(But still I would prefer the angle parameter - maybe something for the future? ;))
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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by MSterling » Fri, 26. Feb 21, 16:49

Shuulo wrote:
Wed, 24. Feb 21, 17:47
MSterling wrote:
Tue, 23. Feb 21, 01:04
Either it is clearly for a mod or clearly not possible to do as a mod.
He meant that mod cannot change hardcoded limit for not working "angle" parameter for beam bullet file.
Only devs can enable this, and IMO it was quite obvious that this was a request to change some technical stuff, not in-game.
If so, and if that IS a thing, then this is not clear or obvious, and the answer to his complaint at others remains the same.

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Re: [Request] Beam weapons with inaccuracy (angle parameter)

Post by Trup2 » Wed, 3. Mar 21, 18:45

If I'm right you can create a beam from standard weapon by changing bullet models and it rate of fire.
For example if I make pulse laser rof fast enough I get beam like type weapon with working angle parameter.

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