Results of mining survey for new beta

This forum is the ideal place for all discussion relating to X4. You will also find additional information from developers here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Bernd
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 875
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Bernd »

Thank you very much to everybody who has participated in yesterdays survey.


Here is the result of the most important question:
Screenshot 2021-02-16 at 20.46.29.png
While the majority of you agree with changing the main asteroid fields along the highway ring, there are still a quarter of you who don’t like it. So for todays beta, we have tried the following compromise:

- We are reducing regions in 6 central systems significantly, but not completely. The much reduced yield still comes with a relatively high replenishment rate.


Let me try to show you what this means, as yesterdays discussions have shown that there are quite a few misunderstandings:
Even after drastic change, there is still a healthy baseline!
The most extreme change has happened in Argon Prime, but even after a massive reduction of its total mining yield, here is how the sector developed in last nights test run with the currently reduced values:
image_2021_02_16T09_38_03_893Z.png
As you can see there is still mining by NPC factions going on and this mining is not draining resources faster than replenishment happens. Low yield regions like the new Argon Prime, replenish fast compared to their total yield even if the absolute numbers are much lower than those of a high or very high yield region.
So while the economy can still work off of such low yield regions, they are a lot less profitable compared to high yield regions, because mining ships should be able to fill much faster in high yield regions.


No risk of running low on resources:

Another thing to understand is that there are still many sectors in the universe, which have capacity enough to sustain the entire universe on just a single sector!

Have a look at this graph:
image_2021_02_16T10_05_00_607Z.png
This shows the total consumption of resources per hour for each resource for the base NPC economy.
Some of the most resource rich sectors, have close to 20 million units of ore and silicon and can replenish completely within about 2.5 days!
So as you can see, there is no danger of the economy as a whole running out of resources. Shortages are always “just” local phenomena.


Placing resource probes:

There are also a few misunderstandings regarding the need to place resource probes. This is in part because the different betas came with a couple of bugs related to how mining commands took advantage of the resource probes you place.

The intention is definitely NOT that you have to place hundreds of probes. It is a good idea for you to place one probe in a newly discovered region and, with the now functioning AI, placing many more, does not hurt, because the ships will still prefer to mine away from probes as soon as the area around a probe is below the average of the surrounding region. We do toy with the idea to give you more tools in the future to identify local high yield pockets, so that placing probes there, can be a fun activity to squeeze out additional pennies. But again: This is NOT necessary to run your economy or to make a decent profit.


I hope this clears up a few of your questions and helps those 25% who voted “NO” to maybe change their mind :)

-Bernd
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
mr.WHO
Posts: 9129
Joined: Thu, 12. Oct 06, 17:19
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by mr.WHO »

What about adding more unclaimed/anarchy sectors?

3.0 added several more sectors, but 4.0 added none.

This change will push more traffic to periphely and it will become a bit claustrophobic without expanding the base game space.
Jeraal
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 22:15
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Jeraal »

It still feels like an effort to slow the early game down. We need more mid-late game stuff, not to take longer to get to what we have now. Another game, 7Days to Die, has done this. Rather than add more stuff for late game, they drastically slowed down early game. I play that game a lot less than I used to, and only with mods that undo a lot of it. Actually, I haven't played in a month or two.
Brute force and ignorance solves all problems, just not very efficiently.

If brute force isn't working, then you aren't using enough.
User avatar
MegaJohnny
Posts: 2235
Joined: Wed, 4. Jun 08, 22:30
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by MegaJohnny »

Thanks for this insight into your simulations :thumb_up:

Just one question out of interest, could you post the list of sectors you plan to adjust?
Raevyan
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat, 4. Oct 08, 17:35
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Raevyan »

Bernd wrote: Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:51 We do toy with the idea to give you more tools in the future to identify local high yield pockets, so that placing probes there, can be a fun activity to squeeze out additional pennies. But again: This is NOT necessary to run your economy or to make a decent profit.


I hope this clears up a few of your questions and helps those 25% who voted “NO” to maybe change their mind :)

-Bernd
This would be very good because the patches we see on the map are misleading and don’t reflect resource areas. Maybe add the locations of high yield resource fields as a mission reward? Or do it X3 style and let us buy the information :)
Last edited by Raevyan on Tue, 16. Feb 21, 23:20, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ubuntufreakdragon
Posts: 5225
Joined: Thu, 23. Jun 11, 14:57
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by ubuntufreakdragon »

These Numbers might match the NPC Production, here are some values for a typical Player Ship Yard, you may notice the peak for Methane:
Silicion Ore Methane Hydrogen Helium
-96000 -120960 -76800 -28800 -38400
My X3 Mods

XRebirth, things left to patch:
In General; On Firing NPC's; In De Vries; Out Of Zone; And the Antiwishlist
Raevyan
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat, 4. Oct 08, 17:35
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Raevyan »

ubuntufreakdragon wrote: Tue, 16. Feb 21, 23:19 These Numbers might match the NPC Production, here are some values for a typical Player Ship Yard, you may notice the peak for Methane:
Silicion Ore Methane Hydrogen Helium
-96000 -120960 -76800 -28800 -38400
Yeah I really wonder how those graphs compare to a late game save where NPC economy has evolved and the player built a lot (I‘ve got ~145 stations in my save).
User avatar
BigBANGtheory
Posts: 3180
Joined: Sun, 23. Oct 05, 12:13
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by BigBANGtheory »

Bernd wrote: Tue, 16. Feb 21, 21:51 No risk of running low on resources:
I think that is the most important thing as we go through any transition... running OUT of resources was what I saw in 4Beta7 and that was a game breaking experience for me along with trying to accurately locate proper resource areas.
exogenesis
Posts: 2718
Joined: Sun, 9. Sep 07, 15:39
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by exogenesis »

That was a bit quick, only just had a chance to try out Beta 8 mining changes,
before offering a thought-about opinion on some future mining change ideas
- think the poll should have lasted somewhat longer.

Anyway, beta 8 seems to be a hellofalot better than before, for gas regen rate anyway,
- but ice is now a challlenge, did the regen rate go down for that ?

The 'remote' fields of resources thing, well it could be interesting,
as long as it's not going to give too much of the various kinds of grief that have been proposed in the other thread.

Sounds more 'realistic' than at present,
but then there's the possibility of taking the simulation too close to realistic,
& possibly making it tedious.

Many players, I suspect, don't need this - they just want to get the resources in to the factories,
but for the 'in depth' players it could make it more interesting, - as long as micro-managment
(miner protection, having to move resource probes, excessive miner count/replacement) doesn't become a chore.
grimgore
Posts: 164
Joined: Tue, 20. Nov 18, 12:58
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by grimgore »

exogenesis wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 00:23 That was a bit quick, only just had a chance to try out Beta 8 mining changes,
before offering a thought-about opinion on some future mining change ideas
- think the poll should have lasted somewhat longer.


Many players, I suspect, don't need this - they just want to get the resources in to the factories,
but for the 'in depth' players it could make it more interesting, - as long as micro-managment
(miner protection, having to move resource probes, excessive miner count/replacement) doesn't become a chore.
I now have the fear that I might lose the fun. Yes, there are hardliners here and they want a challenge. These people also take part in surveys right away. but what about the people who want to enjoy x4?
the way it is now, you have time pressure and the feeling of work.

1. Xenon riot quickly and hard. Without good resources you will find gameover
2. I need good pilots and to get them I have to play missions (it is not the way of my playing style). Leveling takes too long. to be honest, I never get over 3 stars.
3. Hop is aggressive, I want to save argon / antigone from perishing. With the current scarcity of resources in this region. no chance.
4. I see the AI ​​fighting, but I don't see that they are treating their ships and stations like eggs. You should because of this new change.
5. When resources become dynamic, management needs to be revised. It is exhausting to readjust everything manually and I will have to because of the very slow development of the pilot. as I said, i get little or no pilot experience. Example: Playing time 11 days (real time) and the miners with 2 stars work continuously. The stars stay at 2. If I wanted to earn seminars for all of my pilots, I would lose the fun.
Jeraal
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri, 13. Feb 04, 22:15
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Jeraal »

grimgore wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 13:54 ...

2. I need good pilots and to get them I have to play missions (it is not the way of my playing style). Leveling takes too long. to be honest, I never get over 3 stars.
...
5. When resources become dynamic, management needs to be revised. It is exhausting to readjust everything manually and I will have to because of the very slow development of the pilot. as I said, i get little or no pilot experience. Example: Playing time 11 days (real time) and the miners with 2 stars work continuously. The stars stay at 2. If I wanted to earn seminars for all of my pilots, I would lose the fun.
Regarding these points, I could probably get rid of most of my other mods, but the faster leveling one is a mod I will not give up.

As to the resource changes, I will not so patiently wait to see if mods are able to modify that change.
Brute force and ignorance solves all problems, just not very efficiently.

If brute force isn't working, then you aren't using enough.
User avatar
chew-ie
Posts: 6602
Joined: Mon, 5. May 08, 00:05
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by chew-ie »

Thanks Bernd for the nice summary of the poll result. :)

Image

Spoiler
Show
BurnIt: Boron and leaks don't go well together...
Königinnenreich von Boron: Sprich mit deinem Flossenführer
Nila Ti: Folgt mir, ihr Kavalkade von neugierigen Kreaturen!
Tammancktall: Es ist eine Ehre für sie mich kennenzulernen...
CBJ: Thanks for the savegame. We will add it to our "crazy saves" collection [..]

:idea: Feature request: paint jobs on custom starts
taztaz502
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun, 17. Nov 13, 12:22
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by taztaz502 »

Am i the only person who never notices a difference between high level pilots and low level pilots apart from their access to new scripts e.g. automine/trade.

I see no AI improvements and by the time you have stations they're redundant anyway because you can just attach them to the station and the manager will command them... albeit quite poorly but still they work.
User avatar
Ketraar
EGOSOFT
EGOSOFT
Posts: 12150
Joined: Fri, 21. May 04, 17:15
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Ketraar »

Are you referring to Beta 8 or previous experience? In B8 they should make quite the difference and even when attached to managers their skill has impact.

MFG

Ketraar
Image
taztaz502
Posts: 912
Joined: Sun, 17. Nov 13, 12:22
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by taztaz502 »

Ketraar wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 15:48 Are you referring to Beta 8 or previous experience? In B8 they should make quite the difference and even when attached to managers their skill has impact.

MFG

Ketraar
Previous to beta 8, haven't noticed pilot rank being of much a difference especially when they're assigned to a station.

I wonder how the current changes are going to effect my empire, gaining pilot experience is absolutely diabolical. I can build a station builder and have rank 4* service personnel after building 1-2 stations. (This also raises morale for anyone wanting high morale personnel.)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... 2398830122

But here's my pilots after 10 days 17 hours of in game time...
MSterling
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed, 13. May 20, 14:19
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by MSterling »

I think that miners need to be more sensible about probes and should be able to scout for resources just like, uh, scouts, do. Either as part of "Explore" or as a "Prospect" command. Enter a sector, fly around to resources, drop a probe, see if it is a decent amount (the computer is a cheating b**d, so it can just look at the table), then if not, pick the probe up and try another place. Put up to two down, per region that has its own type of resource mix, and then if prospecting another sector, go there and repeat.
Some aid to make early game player-actioned prospecting should be made either easier or more profitable. E.g. early game there would be profligate use of the "please scout out resources" mission. This could replace a lot of the crystal mining startup that most games use, because it is quite chill, safe, and you can get into a zen pattern. IMO the "boring" nature balances this out: you can make far more per hour with a decent mining ship or trader or balanced station, than you can with crystals, so these are only really early game or timewasting as you wait for something to happen. I frequently fly in regions that the long range scan shows has resources with the short range scan mode on so I can see where there are big honking rocks of mineable constitution, to drop a probe. Maybe, if this is how to do it, make it part of the mining tutorial mission. Heck, have a gamestart START with the tutorial, make you, in effect, the NPC hired by the computer for the first few hours, after which you get to select what ship you want to start with out of the cheap ones you were presented with during your time.
Making the price of resources drop, but reducing their volume-per-unit would likely help a lot too. The demand of ores are so huge that you can always sell at max profit as a miner. Cutting the volume makes the NPCs fill the demand easier (and the storage should be set to "five hours of production" or similar, not "we randomly added a 1 million cubic meter storage and only need ore, so there we go!", so that the prices will actually fluctuate), cutting the price makes everything cheaper, though, so it may not be possible to do some of this, and maybe therefore ANY of it, the system is a simulation eating its own tail, you can't change one without changing it all.
However, it might be possible to do it like this:
Either
1) Half the price for selling raw materials. Nerfs the profit of running a straight miner. Refineries make out a lot better.
Or
2) Make miners consider distance more than profit. Makes it possible for refineries or even just storage stations that middle-man their way, the miner sells ore for 30, a new minimum, to the storage station, the storage station sells for 50, a new maximum (example numbers).
Or
3) Reduce volume to 2 or 3 m3 per item.
Reduce cost per unit by half, this increases the profit per hour for mining by 50%, but if it is a lot slower, this could balance out.
Slow refining rate by half to keep the profit per hour at refining the same.
Add plastics from methane or from plants (bioplastics), add it to hull parts requirements (as well as metals, you have carbon fibre panels/surfaces, but you also need plastics for cases, seats, utensils, cupboards, screens (transparent plastics) and other fittings. This would allow you to keep hull parts at the same price, ending the escalation of process profits because EVERYTHING uses hull parts. Heck "bioplastics" could be bioproducts like textiles, lubricants (carbon as graphene is a lubricant, so carbon in hull parts could be packaged lubricant stores), and used as an additional product for station construction. Unless you like sleeping under a steel bedsheet on a steel beam mattress... Bioproducts would therefore be an addition to either hull parts (adding the plastics and a tiny amount of textiles) or added as part of ship construction, the former would be easier to balance, though.

Option 3 is a lot more work, may not stabilise, and therefore be unworkable.

I wonder if terrans will require different things to build their tech (especially ships and equipment), to balance them out: they are more powerful per credit, but you need a bespoke loop for much of their kit. It would allow for "obsoleted" tech to be produced with the same stuff as currently, but THOSE ships to be underpowered, IOW Argon-like, while their newest upgrades are vastly more powerful, but also vastly more expensive, getting a balance for their tech. It could also help if Borons are brought in with their semi-organic ships requiring something other than hull parts for the exterior, using hull parts only for internal structures and station modules. If terrans require some bespoke terran only tech, this could beta test how the game code reacts to it in a more limited form (Boron ships may require a different code loop to simulate the skin being grown, for example).
Bernd
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 875
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Bernd »

Some people in this thread are worried about depletion increasing the need for micro management of their mining fleets:

Depletion has always been a possibility. Inside a region, when smaller areas deplete, mining ships move automatically as the miner autonomously decides where inside the region to find better yield. Depleting the entire region is not a thing a single ship could do but only a large fleet over a long time.

So in summary I don't think there is much reason to fear more micromanagement because of faster region depletion. Where there might be more micromanagement however, is in reacting to increased attacks on miner ships. It is fully intentional from our side, that mining in general gets more dangerous and this is even more true in more remote areas, after moving resources away from the center.

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.
---
-Bernd Lehahn, bernd@egosoft.com
Raevyan
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat, 4. Oct 08, 17:35
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Raevyan »

Bernd wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 17:20

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.
How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.
easternsun
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri, 15. Nov 19, 22:17

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by easternsun »

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.
Bernd
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 875
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: Results of mining survey for new beta

Post by Bernd »

rene6740 wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 17:24
Bernd wrote: Wed, 17. Feb 21, 17:20

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.
How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.
Search in the periphery... there is a way ;)
---
-Bernd Lehahn, bernd@egosoft.com

Return to “X4: Foundations”