How do we make Teladi great?

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Warnoise
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How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Warnoise » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:15

With the arrival of Split and their Top tier ships, Teladi ships are even deeper in the garbage tier.

I just witnessed a horrendous sight where 2 xenon K's slaughtered 8 (eight) Teladi phoenixes.

Let's not talk numbers here because those mean little in actual gameplay. Adding a couple of hundreds points of shield won't make up for the abysmal turret placement of the teladi capitals or for their speed (let's not even talk about their flawed design).

Teladi ships are bottom tier in all categories and I personally think they need to be buffed. To make up for their lack of speed, need to make them really tanky. I am talking 2x amount of hull compared to other races, kind of tanky.

Tl:dr: Teladi ships are trash, how do we make them good?

csaba
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by csaba » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:21

To be fair 2 Ks would likely eat 8 Rattlesnakes as well. They outrange every non Xenon gun with their death ball turrets and can kill a destroyer in seconds.

Doesn't help that the AI has issues commanding 8 ships in battle so it sends them in 1 by 1.

radcapricorn
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by radcapricorn » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:46

csaba wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:21
To be fair 2 Ks would likely eat 8 Rattlesnakes as well.
They would not. Eight Rattlesnakes would swallow two Ks whole almost without breaking pace. One on one a Rattlesnake melts a K and only takes a bit of hull damage, or none at all if you're lucky. Four on one? Bye-bye Ks.

csaba
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by csaba » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:50

radcapricorn wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:46
csaba wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:21
To be fair 2 Ks would likely eat 8 Rattlesnakes as well.
They would not. Eight Rattlesnakes would swallow two Ks whole almost without breaking pace. One on one a Rattlesnake melts a K and only takes a bit of hull damage, or none at all if you're lucky. Four on one? Bye-bye Ks.
I witnessed the opposite in my game. It really depends on positioning.

In my 1 on 1 encounter the rattlesnake was dead before it could fire.

2Ks ate a Raptor that vastly outgunned them simply because the AI was reluctant to move closer to the Ks.

You could argue if the AI was smart enough to use their main guns properly even a phoenix would win against Ks.


I don't say the old destroyers don't need a face lift I'm just saying the differences aren't that big and we should avoid making new monsters.

The Phoenix for example is the only destroyer capable of reliably defending it's engines and main shields as it has a physical shield in front of them and has gun coverage behind them. Now to make it more in line I think the few changes we need is to elongate the back fins so the L guns can poke out. Maybe give it 2 more L hard points and a few M points on the front. And honestly give it one more main shield, it's sad that it equals Behemoth in shields.
Last edited by csaba on Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:56, edited 1 time in total.

Warnoise
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Warnoise » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:56

csaba wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:21
To be fair 2 Ks would likely eat 8 Rattlesnakes as well. They outrange every non Xenon gun with their death ball turrets and can kill a destroyer in seconds.

Doesn't help that the AI has issues commanding 8 ships in battle so it sends them in 1 by 1.
The fight was more like 5v2 then 3 others joined a little bit later and got decimated.

Unlike the rattlesnake, the phoenix L turrets can't focus on the same target. It doesn't have melting power. And there are only 2 of them. Main guns alone won't beat a xenon k unless the xenon k stays still without advancing towards you.

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Sandalpocalypse
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Sandalpocalypse » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:57

In my experience destroyers simply don't have the firepower to beat down a K's shields without their main guns, even in groups. And the main guns have superb firepower compared to the 1 turret that can bear for your average destroyer. So the turret placement really isn't a big deal in this situation.

Teladi probably do suffer from recharge rate being much more important now, but its hard to actually make any pronouncements without making a spreadsheet and/or doing explicit controlled balance trials.

I say give the Phoenis 4 L turrets on the wings and a protective layer of armor over the front dome with its own HP pool. Yeah!
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

csaba
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by csaba » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:03

Sandalpocalypse wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:57

I say give the Phoenis 4 L turrets on the wings and a protective layer of armor over the front dome with its own HP pool. Yeah!
I'll agree with the 2 extra L guns plus as I said elongate the back fins so those guns can aim in front of the craft.

Doubling the M turrets on the dome would be also a thing I recommend, from 6 to 12.

However be careful with the dome, it's stronger than you think. It prevents the ship's main shields being destroyed in a face off, greatly increasing it's effective HP.
Last edited by csaba on Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:05, edited 1 time in total.

radcapricorn
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by radcapricorn » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:05

csaba wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:50
I witnessed the opposite in my game. It really depends on positioning.
In my 1 on 1 encounter the rattlesnake was dead before it could fire.
Hm... perhaps. Just for fairness of comparison, what loadout and crew was on the Rattlesnake in your game? Mine was using all Pulse, piloted by a 2 Piloting 2 Morale star captain, staffed half in half with Service Crew and Marines. It absolutely ate two Ks with a short pause between each, and really tried its best to point the main battery at them.

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Axeface
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Axeface » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:09

I was planning to make a mod that cuts a chunk out of the phoenixs dome hull to give the rear L turrets a (better) shot at targets in front. But I think balancing should be used to fix the problem (like more race specific weapons).
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EGO_Aut
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by EGO_Aut » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:13

The Phoenix do have Lasertowers, most of them should be replaced with Plasma and everything is fine. Do not forget they have Teladi shields and are well protected all around, combined with some goofy maneuvers of the NPC captains they could be gems.

csaba
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by csaba » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:14

radcapricorn wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:05
csaba wrote:
Sun, 5. Apr 20, 15:50
I witnessed the opposite in my game. It really depends on positioning.
In my 1 on 1 encounter the rattlesnake was dead before it could fire.
Hm... perhaps. Just for fairness of comparison, what loadout and crew was on the Rattlesnake in your game? Mine was using all Pulse, piloted by a 2 Piloting 2 Morale star captain, staffed half in half with Service Crew and Marines. It absolutely ate two Ks with a short pause between each, and really tried its best to point the main battery at them.
In my game it was a fleet battle between ZYA and the Xenon in Tharka's Cascade. A K and a Rattlesnake got separated and fought each other. The Rattlesnake's captain had probably low morale cause he constantly broke of the attack.

The K stayed out of L turret range so those didn't matter. The K also dodged 2 sets of frontal fire because of it's speed.

The K also didn't suffer the morale issue as their guns are turreted and can shoot in any position.

The K was also slightly above the plane which makes it able to point more main batteries at it's target.

The K's main guns have a range similar to the main batteries of destroyers and are more numerous.

This is why comparing any destroyer to the K shouldn't be the benchmark.

Sparky Sparkycorp
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:39

One of the issues with the Destroyer is Telari Main Batteries are basically Medium Plasma Mk3. They are far less powerful than the other 3 Main Batteries.

All gun stats are summarises on the wiki here:

https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... d=81134071

I like the idea of elongating the model to make spare for other L turrets. Something more manageable for Dev time could be a buff to their Main Batteries. Such as a bit more DPS and a range boost to 12km.

fcth
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by fcth » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 16:48

The Phoenix is really not set up to be a good anti cap-ship destroyer, I designate them for defense (not that I'm sure that makes much difference). If Egosoft wanted to change that, I think they'd switch out the medium turrets on the front of the disc for large ones, and switch the large turrets on the back for medium ones. Of course in sector, it's largely depending on the AI figuring out optimal positioning, but having the big guns all up front seems like it would definitely help in terms of bringing them to bear all at once.

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Sandalpocalypse
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by Sandalpocalypse » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 17:05

I think it is actually a good idea to give the teladi a different focus than full frontal firepower. They just actually need to have an advantage in their 'brawling' tactic, like having more turrets than other destroyers, or as was suggested in the OP having just a shit ton of HP. Shit tons of HP is bad though since it causes players to lose all will to live as they sit there reading a book with a rock perched on their LMB.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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ballti
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Re: How do we make Teladi great?

Post by ballti » Sun, 5. Apr 20, 17:06

Phoneix style was meta in Rebirth, so it cent be on top.
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