I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

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Nikola515
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Nikola515 » Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:34

I think main reason for me was progression of game it self.... It is way too easy to get money in this game and at the same time ships/stations are cheap and reputations is almost none existent. I had mega complex and fleet of 40 capital ships in only 20h and i didn't even use exploits like crystal/nividum farming.There is lack of missions (especially combat) and sectors are not well balanced. War economy limits you to only trading or just war . For example if you go to war your trade sips or miners will get picked up one by one because they will travel trough enemy sectors. You can still do small scale trading but it will be hard to build huge empire. In my second play i dint go to war and just chose to build stations and sell to both sides and i got bored because there was nothing else to do.... In X3AP war was isolated so you could build empire in Argon Prime and go to war in Heretic's End. I think this game lacks many features as well as horribly planed map that limits gameplay. This is probably why i got so bored after 2 weeks of playing it and i have over 2000h on X3 games and even over 1400h on XR.
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by reanor » Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:38

repatomonor wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 16:22
There are a few points that accumulate to this realisation. Some of them are fixable, some of them are a by-product of the design.

1a. Sectors have huge visibility range, thus they feel small
The reason why X-Rebirth felt huge even with 4 vanilla star systems was because it had a technical limitation, called Zones. The visibility range was reduced so that you could only see stations/ships in that certain zone you were in. They cleverly hidden this limitation with the highway system that basically obstructed your view over the horizon with its tubular visual effect (and the game highly discouraged you to travel without the use of the highway system). If we were to increase the visibility range in the Rebirth similarly to X4, the overal sector size should be about the same.

1b. Sectors in X3 have been over-crowded
Late X3 games held the quantity over quality method of filling up the universe with life. You kept seeing the same thing all over again in different configurations. What rather made it lively was the insane amount of traffic in the hundreds of sectors which resulted in a narrow field of view for the player - so many things were going on that could distract you easily.

2. Earlier X games were sadistic
We've grew accustomed to this so it isn't that obvious, but the previous X games (until Rebirth) were pretty ruthless on the player in terms of money making, especially until X3TC. There weren't many side-ways to make money, missions were rare to come across and even those had certain limitations (fight rank, trade rank, ship type, ship size). Every single little upgrade costed you a fortune (solidifying the weaker-mid-stronger weapon variations - they had huge gaps in price), ships were also expensive in general, fighters costing you about 8 mil Cr while capital ships costing you 80 mil Cr. The bailing rate were similar, but I won't take that into account because that feature could be exploited with quicksave/loading games. However, once you did get to fly a new ship, it felt like something you can be proud of because you've achieved the next step.

3. The implementation of the ships is wrong
In X4, even with interriors, the ships don't feel as fun to fly because they lack characteristics. Their turn-rates are way too high, their weapon arsenals don't have racial/unique limitations. Their speed no longer matter either with the introduction of the almost unified Travel mode speeds. There's almost no difference in flying a fighter, a corvette, or a frigate. Interceptors are useless, scouts don't excel in their field, destroyers feel weird since they constantly remind you that they should be classified as frigates instead of destroyers. The ships don't have full interriors and they are sometimes implemented with the same cockpit modules (I know this is just nitpicking but it had to be mentioned).
Thus this (once again) results in you choosing a relatively overpowered ship that excels in every aspect (usually the Nemesis) and forget about other ships altogether.

4. The universe's backgrounds are boring and not noteworthy
This is an odd step back from Rebirth - that game had a different and interesting characteristic for every single sector you were in. There are only some sectors in X4 that's worth to look at, but even those could have been implemented better in general. And this is what I can't get my mind on fully - we are given almost everything in this game: planets, moons, nebulae, asteroids, highways, superhighways... Yet it still feels off. As if you could see that these things are there but don't find them interesting anymore. Back in X2, that friggin nebula in Cloudbase Southwest (around the Goner temple) had me in awe. Also the one in Rebirth's Teladi DLC. It was somehow more interesting than what we have now. I'm afraid this once again has something to do with travel drive - with that insane speed you could easily bypass these obstacles and you aren't forced to find shortcuts.
This ultimately results in that you won't travel to that distant location, only to enjoy the view.

5. Close-up scale doesn't feel colossal anymore
This is once again something I can't fully comprehend. In Rebirth everything felt way too oversized, but that was something that gave that game its charm. In X4, sizes are about the same, maybe stations being slightly sleeker. But that doesn't explain this. The only part where it feels right is on foot, in the docks (especially when you are looking up on a docked Osprey - it's huge there, but during flight it feels... Small).

6. Civillian/Consumer integration is non-existant
I understand that the economy was simplified so that the war effort remains managable and doesn't get over-complicated. However, with the absense of these "useless" factories, wares, and assets it really feels like a great portion of the game is missing even though if it didn't serve much purpose before.

7. Ingame Encyclopedia isn't finished
I'm talking about the made-up lore that explained the short history and characteristics of the ingame assets/universe. Betty not reading it out loud is one thing - not having it is another. The X games were always role dependant, and Rebirth although with a bit of an over-complication, pulled it off perfectly. X4, not so much.

8. Sector/Zone music tracks are not constant
In my opinion, this is an oversight. Part of what have given Sectors an identity was their very own track. I'm aware that since Rebirth this part of the X games have changed, but we have to address that Rebirth was folded into a few systems/sectors only. That game needed to have randomized tracks in order to give you that false sense of size (that the player doesn't recognize how small the game really is). So much so that even the highways were given music tracks there.
X4 cannot hide this - the core part of the game, the Map makes its size obvious. This isn't a bad thing. But the randomized music is, and believe it or not, this inadvertedly makes the universe seem small because you won't travel to that distant location only to hear 'that music'. Yep, I'm looking at you, Kingdom End.

9. There's not enough space given to the factions/player
This point is simply about numbers. Namely that the number of sector per faction doesn't seem enough.

10. No undiscovered/unknown/unclaimed sectors
Previous X games had this thing that I like to call "Expansion zones". Even if that was not the intention/ingame factions didn't actually expand there, it felt like you had a reason to discover what lies behind that next gate. Or to roam around and see if there are any other active gates in that system.
Excellent post. I wish CBJ would read this and pass it onto other devs to take it into consideration for future improvements. The X4 has a lot of potential, but has several soar spots that really need some balm of gifted developer's heart and soul.
“The dark and the light, they exist side by side." ... “It is often in the darkest skies that we see the brightest stars."

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by reanor » Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:51

CaptainX4 wrote:
Wed, 6. Mar 19, 00:12
Malakie wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 22:44

Tell me you are joking? I have a LOT more hours then that in and not even close to the game being over... Have you completed every single campaign mission chain? For the Argon, Teladi, HOP and others? Have you taken over all sectors or built a starbase empire? Have you beaten the Kaack and the Xenon so they do not have sectors under control anymore?

Have you found all the depots, filled the entire time line and other hidden items?

I very much doubt you accomplished all that in 20 hours. LOL
and you think those are the things people have to do to finish the game? to find all the 28 depots and do the same crap 28 times for 28 useless reward? these are not the reason to play, these are just little things during the journey and X games were never about ruling the universe. its to become the most powerful, to reach the top, and thats pretty doable in 20 hours. form that taking down a xenon sector is just: go! kill!, well, would be if it worked but its not even working. I can capture tons of huge ships turn them on any faction and deal with them in no time, but total destruction is just repetitive and not the aim for everybody, i for one liked to live in peace with all factions, build up my empire fight only the xenon and khaak and in earlier games this took months, now in 20 hours you can easily get to the level where you would be able to beat the crap out of anybody and you dont even need to exploit the game for it, just play normally...
Start a new game. They changed quite a bit around in V2. I know what you are talking about. I had the same feeling before pre v2.0. There was simply no threat or motivation to continue, you grew fat and lazy because nobody is knocking on your doors. Your stations are always safe, there is no impending threat, no reason to build big fleets, etc. You can either wait until the expansion out, which will add some more sectors, but is that really all you want - just explore some more sectors? Then yhou will never have a reason to build fleets. You are used to X3 sadistic way of giving you a bone here and there and making you grind trade for weeks to accomplish really anything at all. THe X4 is more about the faction wars and wars against the Khaak and Xenon. You have to get involved with factions and due war effort missions. It's not the best of course that we have to pull the fun out of game mechanics, instead of being offered these global events happening on their own.

But unfortunately that is the way it is. If you just want to live a peaceful trader life, there will never be enough to do. You have to shake the beehive some, shake up the universe you live in. Start the new game, Xenon and Khaak will be quite a bit more powerful. There will be thread in the galaxy and you may finally realize that you need to build defense and possibly try to prevent future threats to your empire. If you start a new game and do nothing about Xenon and Khaak, they will eventually take over majority of the sectors and destroy everything you have. If you want even more action, plug in this mod. I haven't started myself in v2 yet. But growing into doing it. I've already ran the game for 700 hours (100 or so real play the rest factories making moneys) and tried multiple starts (vanilla, modded, etc)... so I am waiting for the best moment to start the game one last time. I will probably wait for expansion though. Don't want to burn out completely yet.
“The dark and the light, they exist side by side." ... “It is often in the darkest skies that we see the brightest stars."

CaptainX4
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by CaptainX4 » Fri, 8. Mar 19, 01:07

reanor wrote:
Thu, 7. Mar 19, 18:51
Start a new game. They changed quite a bit around in V2. I know what you are talking about. I had the same feeling before pre v2.0. There was simply no threat or motivation to continue, you grew fat and lazy because nobody is knocking on your doors. Your stations are always safe, there is no impending threat, no reason to build big fleets, etc. You can either wait until the expansion out, which will add some more sectors, but is that really all you want - just explore some more sectors? Then yhou will never have a reason to build fleets. You are used to X3 sadistic way of giving you a bone here and there and making you grind trade for weeks to accomplish really anything at all. THe X4 is more about the faction wars and wars against the Khaak and Xenon. You have to get involved with factions and due war effort missions. It's not the best of course that we have to pull the fun out of game mechanics, instead of being offered these global events happening on their own.

But unfortunately that is the way it is. If you just want to live a peaceful trader life, there will never be enough to do. You have to shake the beehive some, shake up the universe you live in. Start the new game, Xenon and Khaak will be quite a bit more powerful. There will be thread in the galaxy and you may finally realize that you need to build defense and possibly try to prevent future threats to your empire. If you start a new game and do nothing about Xenon and Khaak, they will eventually take over majority of the sectors and destroy everything you have. If you want even more action, plug in this mod. I haven't started myself in v2 yet. But growing into doing it. I've already ran the game for 700 hours (100 or so real play the rest factories making moneys) and tried multiple starts (vanilla, modded, etc)... so I am waiting for the best moment to start the game one last time. I will probably wait for expansion though. Don't want to burn out completely yet.
sadly its not about threat, its about challenge... whats the challenge in the game when i have everything i need to beat anything? the problem is exactly that i can build up huge fleets and stations full of guns in no time and then... there is nobody to challenge me. i#ve started all wars, the paranid the xenon and the argon were all in wars but none have the force to challenge mine, i just dont clear the universe because its bugged like hell and more frustrating than enjoyable. its way to easy to have everything

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mr.WHO
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 8. Mar 19, 19:40

IMO with 2.0 release I'm rather pleased with the X4 direction. It's already better than XR (and much faster from release than XR).

To me the biggest X4 flaws are (from most painful to least):
- chores of NPC management (no NPC management screen, no mass crew transfer, no micro-intense training methods)
- still some stupidity of combat AI (capships turrets having too short range, bombers not firing heavy torpedos consistently, capships doing very convoluded manuovers that make zero sense)
- lack of pirates (I never though that I gonna miss XR Titurel) - SCA is not enough and HAT is mostly pacifist.
- lack of true pirate alley (these were my favorite regions in X3 - X4 space feel too safe and orderly that you're never more than 2-3 jumps away from "Core" - the main highway loops makes universe feel very small)
- lack of Xenon alleys (they are put in boring outskirts and nearly the same 2-hex size).
- lack of capship types (XL battleships and Actual frigates, current frigates are more like heavy corvettes).
- lack of some capship weapons (flak, torpedo turrets)
- lack of Terrans (but will probably be added as DLC after Split and Boron)

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Thecrippler » Fri, 8. Mar 19, 21:56

mr.WHO wrote:
Fri, 8. Mar 19, 19:40
IMO with 2.0 release I'm rather pleased with the X4 direction. It's already better than XR (and much faster from release than XR).

To me the biggest X4 flaws are (from most painful to least):
- chores of NPC management (no NPC management screen, no mass crew transfer, no micro-intense training methods)
- still some stupidity of combat AI (capships turrets having too short range, bombers not firing heavy torpedos consistently, capships doing very convoluded manuovers that make zero sense)
- lack of pirates (I never though that I gonna miss XR Titurel) - SCA is not enough and HAT is mostly pacifist.
- lack of true pirate alley (these were my favorite regions in X3 - X4 space feel too safe and orderly that you're never more than 2-3 jumps away from "Core" - the main highway loops makes universe feel very small)
- lack of Xenon alleys (they are put in boring outskirts and nearly the same 2-hex size).
- lack of capship types (XL battleships and Actual frigates, current frigates are more like heavy corvettes).
- lack of some capship weapons (flak, torpedo turrets)
- lack of Terrans (but will probably be added as DLC after Split and Boron)
you forgot the
lack of capship types L
lack of M ships

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Nort The Fragrent » Mon, 11. Mar 19, 06:14

I am aware V:2 has been released, yet am still reluctant to get back into playing the game. Have they put in more music? Have they introduced more sectors? From what I read the answer is no. I could get into building a shipyard, but for why?
I have lots of ships anyway!
What I shall wait for are more sectors to explore! It can not be that hard to put in some out of the way sectors that The red s have no interest in. A chain of sectors to explore, build in and make your own. Almost as I side shoot from the main game, and having little impact on the overall game, these sectors can be quite extensive and vast.
Please please give us better space backdrops, these X4 ones are plane dull, boring, tedious and most look the same.

Even using some backdrops from previous games would go a long way to improve game enjoyment, This X4 get’s visually boring way too quick!

Old - Kingdom End, we loved you.

And having popped back into X3AP, there is a wealth of wonder missing in X4 !

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by ATTACK_HAMSTER » Fri, 15. Mar 19, 16:24

Nort The Fragrent wrote:
Mon, 11. Mar 19, 06:14
And having popped back into X3AP, there is a wealth of wonder missing in X4 !
Intentional game design that allows features to be sold via DLC.
You ain't getting me on no M3 Fool !

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by pvarn » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 02:15

Not every game can please everybody. Tho who are enjoying the game will undoubtedly continue to do so. Those who are done with it will continue to discover it's not the game they thought it was. As for me, in 2.0 the enemy is very aggressive and keeping me on my toes. I continue to look forward to the patches yet to come particularly in AI.
-Pv-

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Frostnads » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 04:07

pvarn wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 02:15
...I continue to look forward to the patches yet to come particularly in AI. -Pv-
I do also. Really hoping the AI gets a full re-work, and the trade/mine sector limit gets doubled.

Not optimistic about seeing a solid working AI from Egosoft, if I'm being honest. The AI has been pretty crappy in the previous versions, and if it was never done right in previous X games, I wonder if working a successful resolution is so complex that EGO is simply not equipped to accomplish it themselves.
* Perhaps the folks at Kythera could formulate a solution, as this is their specialty. Looks amazing http://kythera.ai/case-studies/star-cit ... pment-view
X: Beyond the Frontier | X-Tension | X2: The Threat | X3: Reunion | X3: Terran Conflict | X3: Terran Conflict | X3: Albion Prelude | X Rebirth | X4: Foundations

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by TheAsgard » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 06:50

Played all the X Games. Held of buying this due to all the negative reviews but decided to give it a go with V2. I’m about 30 hours in and really enjoying the game. For me this is the most immersive X Game yet. AI in my game seems to be doing a reasonable job, no worse than previous games. Money making is spot on. Universe feels very alive with plenty to do. Game is pretty stable, only one crash. Performance is good in UW resolutions with my 1080ti with a 87K@4.9

Where I think it can be improved is more equipment, guns and ships. Ship models where much better in X3 AP but I understand the design choice with the editer. The ships look too boxy.

Glad I invested in the collectors edition, can’t wait for more content.

Many thanks Egosoft

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by MHDriver » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 07:50

TheAsgard wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 06:50
Played all the X Games. Held of buying this due to all the negative reviews but decided to give it a go with V2. I’m about 30 hours in and really enjoying the game. For me this is the most immersive X Game yet. AI in my game seems to be doing a reasonable job, no worse than previous games. Money making is spot on. Universe feels very alive with plenty to do. Game is pretty stable, only one crash. Performance is good in UW resolutions with my 1080ti with a 87K@4.9

Where I think it can be improved is more equipment, guns and ships. Ship models where much better in X3 AP but I understand the design choice with the editer. The ships look too boxy.

Glad I invested in the collectors edition, can’t wait for more content.

Many thanks Egosoft
Lol, you're a funny guy. Get paid for positive feedback much or are you a Dev in disguise.. AI doing good job eh, yeah right..

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by TheAsgard » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 10:28

MHDriver wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 07:50
TheAsgard wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 06:50
Played all the X Games. Held of buying this due to all the negative reviews but decided to give it a go with V2. I’m about 30 hours in and really enjoying the game. For me this is the most immersive X Game yet. AI in my game seems to be doing a reasonable job, no worse than previous games. Money making is spot on. Universe feels very alive with plenty to do. Game is pretty stable, only one crash. Performance is good in UW resolutions with my 1080ti with a 87K@4.9

Where I think it can be improved is more equipment, guns and ships. Ship models where much better in X3 AP but I understand the design choice with the editer. The ships look too boxy.

Glad I invested in the collectors edition, can’t wait for more content.

Many thanks Egosoft
Lol, you're a funny guy. Get paid for positive feedback much or are you a Dev in disguise.. AI doing good job eh, yeah right..
May be I just know how to play the game and the game isn’t for you!

It’s a joke people like you can come out with these sort of remarks and put potential customers off.

It’s my experience with the game, respect it!

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by radcapricorn » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 11:24

TheAsgard wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 10:28
MHDriver wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 07:50
Lol, you're a funny guy. Get paid for positive feedback much or are you a Dev in disguise.. AI doing good job eh, yeah right..
May be I just know how to play the game and the game isn’t for you!

It’s a joke people like you can come out with these sort of remarks and put potential customers off.

It’s my experience with the game, respect it!
Your review was very subjective. That the game "feels" OK to you doesn't mean that it is OK. If you had just browsed the Tech. Sp. or beta forums, you would've found loads of issues, both on macro and micro level. Some of them are spanning several releases now. No amount of saying "ooh, it seems fine to me" is going to change that. So if you're going to demand from someone to respect your rose-tinted glasses view, start with yourself first.

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Falcrack » Sat, 16. Mar 19, 20:28

radcapricorn wrote:
Sat, 16. Mar 19, 11:24
Your review was very subjective. That the game "feels" OK to you doesn't mean that it is OK. If you had just browsed the Tech. Sp. or beta forums, you would've found loads of issues, both on macro and micro level. Some of them are spanning several releases now. No amount of saying "ooh, it seems fine to me" is going to change that. So if you're going to demand from someone to respect your rose-tinted glasses view, start with yourself first.
If it feels okay to him, that doesn't take away from any of your concerns. Frankly, the game mostly feels okay to me. There are some issues I would like to see addressed, and I do think there is plenty of work still to be done on this game, but my general feeling is that the coverage of these negative issues (especially in the Steam forum, don't know why it is so toxic there) is overblown, and that the game is made to look much worse than it actually is. Again, just my opinion, but constant negativity, without balance by highlighting the good parts of the game, can and does put off potential customers who might otherwise enjoy the game.

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