I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

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Rincewind79
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I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Rincewind79 » Sun, 3. Mar 19, 15:47

So here's my story: bought the game right after launch and played until patch 1.5. At that point I had visited the whole universe, placed satellites in almost all sectors, had some universe traders and some nice, capable fighters. Next steps would include building my own economy, army and advance the HQ.

But there was just no reason to do that. By providing no challenge whatsoever, my motivation just went poof and didnt come back. I have to say, that in the hundreds of hours I spent in X3 I refrained from building my own stations, because it was very complicated and like in X4 optional. But there was always enough to do. Some sectors were very dangerous solo, just flying thru them was a challenge. It took a very long time, till I could destroy whole xenon sectors by myself. The time it took to discover the whole universe, the time it took to just fly to the most remote sector to find the hidden ship, every aspect felt so much bigger and more satisfying mastering them.

In comparison X4 feels like the most casual version. In the beginning I liked a lot of the way more comfortable interface, faster traveling and easier shopping experience, but by reducing the complexity, they also reduced longevity of gameplay (for me) by a lot! In retrospect X3 felt more like Dark Souls/STALKER:Misery and X4 is more like... I don't know, I haven't played a game in the past ten years, that was so simple and ended so quickly (but wasnt meant to).

Has patch 2.0 changed any of that? Is the universe more lively, challenging and complex?

pref
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by pref » Sun, 3. Mar 19, 17:13

Should change that yes, imo idea of X4 is to reduce the buildup part (also due to less content, but in design i think it was also an aim), and let the game revolve more around faction interactions: they can expand, and not just have a constant locked war state like in AP, and the economic supply available to them also influences this to a larger degree.
There are still some issues, but it can work even better then in X3 imo. Late game might make much more sense, and when more content is released the buildup part will be more detailed and longer hopefully.

Right now due to issues and some missing features it doesn't shine that much but most things will get fixed by ES or modders eventually.

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Nort The Fragrent
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Nort The Fragrent » Sun, 3. Mar 19, 19:37

Agree, X3 felt huge, x4, is just too small.
The effort you had to go to to get around in X3 was all part of the challenge, yet x4 can be traversed in a minuet or two! ( Why )
I spent a long time in x3 building stations, working out the site for the station, the sight lines the ships had to travel to avoid crashing into things, and the local trading advantages.
X4 station building is probably the one thing I really like and can spend more time playing with station designs than be in the game.
And thats about it for me in x4, I have 20+ stations, heaps of ships, and no where to go !
I have stopped playing, I know V2 has been released and I could build a shipyard, but I cannot be bothered just yet. I will wait till some more sectors are inserted.

They do need to fill in the map and expand it A LOT for the game to be worth my time.

RodentofDoom
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by RodentofDoom » Sun, 3. Mar 19, 19:54

The X series isn't just a list of "linked in lore" space sims
Each part of the series has been used to tell a different story, each story had a different perspective.

They chose the name for X4 for a reason
A foundation is the part of a structure that supports everything above it
Does it rankle that I have to wait to see what much of that structure will be?
Well yes, of course it does.

But taking account of the story telling approach egosoft use
I'm also very keen to what the rest of the story will be, which means I can forestall my impatience
grudgingly
but I can do it

Give egosoft the time they need, and they will once again add content, and fix bugs and balance issues
X3 1.0 was not the same game that X3 4.0 became (even less so if you include the Mod support)
X4 4.0 will not be the same game you are complaining about now

Graaf
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Graaf » Sun, 3. Mar 19, 23:05

RodentofDoom wrote:
Sun, 3. Mar 19, 19:54
The X series isn't just a list of "linked in lore" space sims
Each part of the series has been used to tell a different story, each story had a different perspective.

They chose the name for X4 for a reason
A foundation is the part of a structure that supports everything above it
Does it rankle that I have to wait to see what much of that structure will be?
Well yes, of course it does.

But taking account of the story telling approach egosoft use
I'm also very keen to what the rest of the story will be, which means I can forestall my impatience
grudgingly
but I can do it

Give egosoft the time they need, and they will once again add content, and fix bugs and balance issues
X3 1.0 was not the same game that X3 4.0 became (even less so if you include the Mod support)
X4 4.0 will not be the same game you are complaining about now
Odd considering X4 has no story.
I too share the opinion that it is small, shallow, dull and boring. And looking at the "roadmap of evolution" I don't see anything really change with that.

If we have to take the name, Foundation, as a guide, then we are missing 80% of the structure. And I don't see this foundation being very supportive.

RodentofDoom
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by RodentofDoom » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 13:03

Graaf wrote:
Sun, 3. Mar 19, 23:05

Odd considering X4 has no story.
Plot ≠ Story

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consiefe
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by consiefe » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 13:23

pref wrote:
Sun, 3. Mar 19, 17:13
...and not just have a constant locked war state like in AP,
...
Really? If this is truth it's the only news that I got about this game for a long while. I didn't see this kind of mechanic yet I didn't play the war aspect due to bugged missions. Do you tell factions are able to declare wars or ceasefires? They definitely should be but I was disappointed upon not seeing it.
If science shows that the god exist, I choose to believe in science. If god shows that he exist and science proves that it's legit, I ask to god "where do I sign?"

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by GCU Grey Area » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 13:38

Thoroughly enjoying X4.

Build is by the far the best implementation of such mechanics there's been in any X game. Far better than X3 spaghetti complexes, or XR fixed build plans. Really love the way if I oversaturate a particular market I can dismantle superfluous production modules & use the materials to build something different in their place.

Enjoying Trade far more too, largely as a consequence of XR style queued trade orders, combined with a graphical indication of the route each ship will take & (critically) the ability to move orders around within the queue to plan a more efficient route.

As for Fight, finally, after 15 years of playing these games, I have a reason to own & use a fleet of warships (rather than just having widely scattered OOS defence ships). At present in the process of purging all Xenon sectors in the vicinity of Teladi space (playing as Teladi, so have a lot of stuff in the area). Pointless activity in the old games where Xenon ships were spawned out of nothing (so no matter what you did they'd always be around). In contrast, extremely helpful in X4 since all Xenon ships are built from basic resources at shipyards - having recently purged Matrix 9 & 451 have already observed a dramatic reduction in Xenon-related incidents for my ships & stations, Scale Plate Green's next.

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Shuulo » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 14:28

consiefe wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 13:23
Really? If this is truth it's the only news that I got about this game for a long while. I didn't see this kind of mechanic yet I didn't play the war aspect due to bugged missions. Do you tell factions are able to declare wars or ceasefires? They definitely should be but I was disappointed upon not seeing it.
It all was really bugged pre-2.0. Im not sure about declaring wars (this for sure will come at somepoint, considering what they are aiming to), but I definitely saw ceasefires. Also, coming back from modding forum - there seems to be a whole faction AI logic for invasion planing, sector takeover, forces evaluation and even reconnaissance (scout ships actually feed intel back so it is used in decision making by mentioned AI logic). As all of the ships are produced from economy player has much more impact on the universe in the late-game.
Unfortunately all of these are kind of hidden to the player, you could notice some war update messages pre-2.0, but then it gets bugged and you receive nothing. I believe this will be opened more to players with updates.

As for now, 2.2beta + this mod make game incredibly alive and dynamic, I have HOP knocking doors to Argon Prime and Xenons took over half of Teladi space, but this was 2.0 start, so not sue if it will work with pre-2.0 save.

X3 1.0 was much more a mess than X4 is now from my memory, EGO are not that good with starting up but they are very good with updates.
If current Universe is too small for you (it is a bit for me) I would suggest to wait till Split DLC that will surely bring more content and by that time most troubles with base game should also be tackled.

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Scorpion1948
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Scorpion1948 » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 14:58

I spent 3 years playing Elite Dangerous 4,000+ hours.
Since starting with X4 I have played nothing else, and loving it. (being a pensioner maybe I have learnt a bit of patience in my time, and try to get the best out of what I have got)

I have stations/shipyards all the ships that I want or need at the moment. I can walk around stations, or just watch the ships building, landing and taking off. I even feel sad when I have to fire a Captain for incompetence :lol:

I do not understand why every other post compares X4 to other games in the series. (you bought it, play it or don't)

I come to this Forum to ask questions and to learn from others about X4 not all of the other games in the series.

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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by radcapricorn » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 15:17

Scorpion1948 wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 14:58
(being a pensioner maybe I have learnt a bit of patience in my time, and try to get the best out of what I have got)
...
I do not understand why every other post compares X4 to other games in the series. (you bought it, play it or don't)
A pensioner that doesn't know about nostalgia? Can I have an autograph, please? :D

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consiefe
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by consiefe » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 15:58

Scorpion1948 wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 14:58
I spent 3 years playing Elite Dangerous 4,000+ hours.
Since starting with X4 I have played nothing else, and loving it. (being a pensioner maybe I have learnt a bit of patience in my time, and try to get the best out of what I have got)

I have stations/shipyards all the ships that I want or need at the moment. I can walk around stations, or just watch the ships building, landing and taking off. I even feel sad when I have to fire a Captain for incompetence :lol:

I do not understand why every other post compares X4 to other games in the series. (you bought it, play it or don't)

I come to this Forum to ask questions and to learn from others about X4 not all of the other games in the series.
It's a good thing that you enjoy it but it doesn't justify that the game doesn't need to be criticised and compared to the other games of which basic dynamics are working properly.

Not enough content is tolerable, understandable, can be shown patience, on the other hand basic features like fleet&crew management and faction AI needs help badly. Only then new content is welcome imho.
If science shows that the god exist, I choose to believe in science. If god shows that he exist and science proves that it's legit, I ask to god "where do I sign?"

repatomonor
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by repatomonor » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 16:22

There are a few points that accumulate to this realisation. Some of them are fixable, some of them are a by-product of the design.

1a. Sectors have huge visibility range, thus they feel small
The reason why X-Rebirth felt huge even with 4 vanilla star systems was because it had a technical limitation, called Zones. The visibility range was reduced so that you could only see stations/ships in that certain zone you were in. They cleverly hidden this limitation with the highway system that basically obstructed your view over the horizon with its tubular visual effect (and the game highly discouraged you to travel without the use of the highway system). If we were to increase the visibility range in the Rebirth similarly to X4, the overal sector size should be about the same.

1b. Sectors in X3 have been over-crowded
Late X3 games held the quantity over quality method of filling up the universe with life. You kept seeing the same thing all over again in different configurations. What rather made it lively was the insane amount of traffic in the hundreds of sectors which resulted in a narrow field of view for the player - so many things were going on that could distract you easily.

2. Earlier X games were sadistic
We've grew accustomed to this so it isn't that obvious, but the previous X games (until Rebirth) were pretty ruthless on the player in terms of money making, especially until X3TC. There weren't many side-ways to make money, missions were rare to come across and even those had certain limitations (fight rank, trade rank, ship type, ship size). Every single little upgrade costed you a fortune (solidifying the weaker-mid-stronger weapon variations - they had huge gaps in price), ships were also expensive in general, fighters costing you about 8 mil Cr while capital ships costing you 80 mil Cr. The bailing rate were similar, but I won't take that into account because that feature could be exploited with quicksave/loading games. However, once you did get to fly a new ship, it felt like something you can be proud of because you've achieved the next step.

3. The implementation of the ships is wrong
In X4, even with interriors, the ships don't feel as fun to fly because they lack characteristics. Their turn-rates are way too high, their weapon arsenals don't have racial/unique limitations. Their speed no longer matter either with the introduction of the almost unified Travel mode speeds. There's almost no difference in flying a fighter, a corvette, or a frigate. Interceptors are useless, scouts don't excel in their field, destroyers feel weird since they constantly remind you that they should be classified as frigates instead of destroyers. The ships don't have full interriors and they are sometimes implemented with the same cockpit modules (I know this is just nitpicking but it had to be mentioned).
Thus this (once again) results in you choosing a relatively overpowered ship that excels in every aspect (usually the Nemesis) and forget about other ships altogether.

4. The universe's backgrounds are boring and not noteworthy
This is an odd step back from Rebirth - that game had a different and interesting characteristic for every single sector you were in. There are only some sectors in X4 that's worth to look at, but even those could have been implemented better in general. And this is what I can't get my mind on fully - we are given almost everything in this game: planets, moons, nebulae, asteroids, highways, superhighways... Yet it still feels off. As if you could see that these things are there but don't find them interesting anymore. Back in X2, that friggin nebula in Cloudbase Southwest (around the Goner temple) had me in awe. Also the one in Rebirth's Teladi DLC. It was somehow more interesting than what we have now. I'm afraid this once again has something to do with travel drive - with that insane speed you could easily bypass these obstacles and you aren't forced to find shortcuts.
This ultimately results in that you won't travel to that distant location, only to enjoy the view.

5. Close-up scale doesn't feel colossal anymore
This is once again something I can't fully comprehend. In Rebirth everything felt way too oversized, but that was something that gave that game its charm. In X4, sizes are about the same, maybe stations being slightly sleeker. But that doesn't explain this. The only part where it feels right is on foot, in the docks (especially when you are looking up on a docked Osprey - it's huge there, but during flight it feels... Small).

6. Civillian/Consumer integration is non-existant
I understand that the economy was simplified so that the war effort remains managable and doesn't get over-complicated. However, with the absense of these "useless" factories, wares, and assets it really feels like a great portion of the game is missing even though if it didn't serve much purpose before.

7. Ingame Encyclopedia isn't finished
I'm talking about the made-up lore that explained the short history and characteristics of the ingame assets/universe. Betty not reading it out loud is one thing - not having it is another. The X games were always role dependant, and Rebirth although with a bit of an over-complication, pulled it off perfectly. X4, not so much.

8. Sector/Zone music tracks are not constant
In my opinion, this is an oversight. Part of what have given Sectors an identity was their very own track. I'm aware that since Rebirth this part of the X games have changed, but we have to address that Rebirth was folded into a few systems/sectors only. That game needed to have randomized tracks in order to give you that false sense of size (that the player doesn't recognize how small the game really is). So much so that even the highways were given music tracks there.
X4 cannot hide this - the core part of the game, the Map makes its size obvious. This isn't a bad thing. But the randomized music is, and believe it or not, this inadvertedly makes the universe seem small because you won't travel to that distant location only to hear 'that music'. Yep, I'm looking at you, Kingdom End.

9. There's not enough space given to the factions/player
This point is simply about numbers. Namely that the number of sector per faction doesn't seem enough.

10. No undiscovered/unknown/unclaimed sectors
Previous X games had this thing that I like to call "Expansion zones". Even if that was not the intention/ingame factions didn't actually expand there, it felt like you had a reason to discover what lies behind that next gate. Or to roam around and see if there are any other active gates in that system.
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consiefe
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by consiefe » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 17:18

repatomonor wrote:
Tue, 5. Mar 19, 16:22
There are a few points that accumulate to this realisation. Some of them are fixable, some of them are a by-product of the design.

2. Earlier X games were sadistic
We've grew accustomed to this so it isn't that obvious, but the previous X games (until Rebirth) were pretty ruthless on the player in terms of money making, especially until X3TC. There weren't many side-ways to make money, missions were rare to come across and even those had certain limitations (fight rank, trade rank, ship type, ship size). Every single little upgrade costed you a fortune (solidifying the weaker-mid-stronger weapon variations - they had huge gaps in price), ships were also expensive in general, fighters costing you about 8 mil Cr while capital ships costing you 80 mil Cr. The bailing rate were similar, but I won't take that into account because that feature could be exploited with quicksave/loading games. However, once you did get to fly a new ship, it felt like something you can be proud of because you've achieved the next step.

3. The implementation of the ships is wrong
In X4, even with interriors, the ships don't feel as fun to fly because they lack characteristics. Their turn-rates are way too high, their weapon arsenals don't have racial/unique limitations. Their speed no longer matter either with the introduction of the almost unified Travel mode speeds. There's almost no difference in flying a fighter, a corvette, or a frigate. Interceptors are useless, scouts don't excel in their field, destroyers feel weird since they constantly remind you that they should be classified as frigates instead of destroyers. The ships don't have full interriors and they are sometimes implemented with the same cockpit modules (I know this is just nitpicking but it had to be mentioned).
Thus this (once again) results in you choosing a relatively overpowered ship that excels in every aspect (usually the Nemesis) and forget about other ships altogether.

4. The universe's backgrounds are boring and not noteworthy
This is an odd step back from Rebirth - that game had a different and interesting characteristic for every single sector you were in. There are only some sectors in X4 that's worth to look at, but even those could have been implemented better in general. And this is what I can't get my mind on fully - we are given almost everything in this game: planets, moons, nebulae, asteroids, highways, superhighways... Yet it still feels off. As if you could see that these things are there but don't find them interesting anymore. Back in X2, that friggin nebula in Cloudbase Southwest (around the Goner temple) had me in awe. Also the one in Rebirth's Teladi DLC. It was somehow more interesting than what we have now. I'm afraid this once again has something to do with travel drive - with that insane speed you could easily bypass these obstacles and you aren't forced to find shortcuts.
This ultimately results in that you won't travel to that distant location, only to enjoy the view.

5. Close-up scale doesn't feel colossal anymore
This is once again something I can't fully comprehend. In Rebirth everything felt way too oversized, but that was something that gave that game its charm. In X4, sizes are about the same, maybe stations being slightly sleeker. But that doesn't explain this. The only part where it feels right is on foot, in the docks (especially when you are looking up on a docked Osprey - it's huge there, but during flight it feels... Small).

7. Ingame Encyclopedia isn't finished
I'm talking about the made-up lore that explained the short history and characteristics of the ingame assets/universe. Betty not reading it out loud is one thing - not having it is another. The X games were always role dependant, and Rebirth although with a bit of an over-complication, pulled it off perfectly. X4, not so much.
While I mostly agree on all of them, I see these objects as crucial. Especially 3 and 4 bothers me the most. I don't care much about cockpit modules but generic stats of those ships are very upsetting. Differences in the same class and between classes were one of the biggest appeals for me.
If science shows that the god exist, I choose to believe in science. If god shows that he exist and science proves that it's legit, I ask to god "where do I sign?"

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Scorpion1948
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Re: I dont get it. Spent hundreds of hours in X3, but X4 is over after 20?

Post by Scorpion1948 » Tue, 5. Mar 19, 17:40

I apologise I was just trying to point out that almost every post (might be an exaggeration) on this forum talks about the proceeding games.

I do agree that many things need fixing, and I can see that a lot is being done to that end.

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