Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

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Kryptos901
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Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Kryptos901 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 02:40

So, I started poking around with the numbers, and it appears that Paranid ships are simply superior. Their freighters move freight ~18% faster than Argon freighters and ~30% faster than Teladi freighters. Similar numbers for Paranid miners. Their destroyer has 4 L turrets compared to the other races 2, as well as more M turrets, and at least one L turret can be brought to bear in any direction. They have the best scout ship, and it appears that their corvette is the player favorite as well. I haven't played with carriers yet.

The only ships that are maybe better than Paranid in their class is gonna be the Pulsar for player controlled fighter, and Eclipse outclasses the Theseus, but even that is a little fuzzy due to the speed difference. And the Kestrel Sentinel is the best smuggler.

Paranid ships, specifically the sentinel versions, are virtually always the best choice for whatever you have in mind.

This seems like it should be rebalanced. Make the speed vs shield vs power choice that Egosoft seems to be going for much more obvious. Give Argon ships beefier guns and Teladi ships beefier shields and cargo bays. Even lore wise, Teladi should have the best trade ships.

Also, the Sentinel versions of ships are virtually always superior to Vanguards in almost every case as well.

mythal01
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by mythal01 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 03:29

This is as it should be. Puny human.

Mr_Cossack
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Mr_Cossack » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:00

They also look the best too. :)

jakotheshadows
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by jakotheshadows » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:12

Yep, at first I thought I was going to make a killing with Shuyaku Sentinels, but then I ported to one to see what was taking so long and found that traders will drop out of travel up to a whopping 70 km away from their destination. That, combined with the Shuyaku Sentinel's awful non-travel mode speed made me immediately sell all of them and start pumping paranid mineral miners.

moulbr
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by moulbr » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:15

Their ships may be better, but captains are not. Every trader I bought had only 2 stars whereas the Argon captains are always 3 starts for autotrade.

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Nafensoriel
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Nafensoriel » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:18

Teladi should not have the "best" trade ships because frankly, that's subjective. They should, however, have the most EFFICIENT trade ships in cost and cargo.. which they do. It just isn't as pronounced as in X3.
"A Tradition is only as good as it's ability to change." Nael

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KextV8
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by KextV8 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:35

For S class ships, I use Argon fighters, paranid miners/couriers.
For M class ships, I use Paranid transporters, miners, and the Nemesis.
For L class ships, I used the Argon Destroyer because it's the least ugly. The Teladi destroyer looks derpy, and the Paranid one is ugly. I pretty much don't use the Freighters or Miners because L Class ships have travel issues so M class beats them out for raw transportation power.
For XL class I used the Argon Carrier because it's the most durable. Speed doesn't matter much to me on the L/XL ships because potato is potato. A slightly faster potato doesn't help much when the real problem is how the ships will spend an hour circling a gate before going through it. I also like the Teladi Carrier visually, but only two shield slots versus three on the Argon one :S. The Paranid Carrier is ugly as sin.

I don't see the Paranid Destroyer having 4 guns instead of 2 as much of an advantage when the AI can't use them for anything, and I'm never going to fly something so slow myself. The real power for damage in a fleet comes from how many missile boats it has to be honest. The bulk of my fighting force is make up of Pulsars running dual missile launchers and quad guns as well as Nemesis' running 4 guns and 1 missile launcher. The Pulsars are there to deliver the bulk of the heavy damage while the Nems clean up small ships.

The L/XL ships are there strictly for flavor and symbol. L/XL ships suck at actual combat right now.

nairax
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by nairax » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 06:50

The Paranid destroyer can dock M class ships, which other races cannot do. It is also faster than most S class ships (what?). The Paranid M class trader, the Demeter Sentinel sold by the HOP, is leaps and bounds above every other M class trader - major superiority in speed, with better cargo capacity than most.

The game needs to be rebalanced: Teladi traders should continue to be slow, but their cargo capacity should be increased by ~20% to make up for this. Teladi shields should similarly be buffed ~20%. Paranid transports should be decreased 5-10%, except for the one that I mentioned, which needs to be brought into line with the other Paranid ships.

Further, shields, engines, and thrusters (everything that isn't a weapon, basically) should be locked to the races' appropriate ships. Teladi shields only on Teladi ships. This would allow you to buff the shields without having to do anything fancy.

The Argon are unique in having access to more transport ships. Their slower transports should be buffed significantly for cargo, just to make them usable.

As far as other balance go, the Argon should probably have improved thrusters to make up for their slower engines. This would make their fighters agile but slow (in a straight line), whereas Paranids would be the opposite, and Teladi would be tanks.

Also, transport AI really needs to use travel drive properly. It should always attempt to use travel drive, and should only drop out of the travel drive when it is less than 1 km from its target station.

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KextV8
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by KextV8 » Fri, 14. Dec 18, 07:11

nairax wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 06:50
It is also faster than most S class ships (what?).
It has a little bit of speed, but it does not have the maneuverability to use it. That speed is actually counter-productive, if you intend to use the thing in combat at all, if you can't turn the thing. It's good for travel, but then, for travel only your travel drive speed matters, and the other destroyers are all adequate on that end too.

As for the S class ships, that's really more of an issue that pretty much all of the S class fighting ships are under tuned speed-wise IMO. I kinda feel like they should have set 250-300 as the slow end for S class fighters. But hey, it is what it is.

Kryptos901
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Kryptos901 » Sat, 15. Dec 18, 04:24

nairax wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 06:50
The Paranid destroyer can dock M class ships, which other races cannot do. It is also faster than most S class ships (what?). The Paranid M class trader, the Demeter Sentinel sold by the HOP, is leaps and bounds above every other M class trader - major superiority in speed, with better cargo capacity than most.

The game needs to be rebalanced: Teladi traders should continue to be slow, but their cargo capacity should be increased by ~20% to make up for this. Teladi shields should similarly be buffed ~20%. Paranid transports should be decreased 5-10%, except for the one that I mentioned, which needs to be brought into line with the other Paranid ships.

Further, shields, engines, and thrusters (everything that isn't a weapon, basically) should be locked to the races' appropriate ships. Teladi shields only on Teladi ships. This would allow you to buff the shields without having to do anything fancy.

The Argon are unique in having access to more transport ships. Their slower transports should be buffed significantly for cargo, just to make them usable.

As far as other balance go, the Argon should probably have improved thrusters to make up for their slower engines. This would make their fighters agile but slow (in a straight line), whereas Paranids would be the opposite, and Teladi would be tanks.

Also, transport AI really needs to use travel drive properly. It should always attempt to use travel drive, and should only drop out of the travel drive when it is less than 1 km from its target station.

Teladi need a cargo boost of like 50% just to be on the same level as paranid ships. Their cargo bays should be straight up doubled. As the other poster said a bit earlier, they should be the most efficient traders. As their cost is not significantly different, this does not work at all right now. Plus, purchase cost is negligible in a game longer than ten hours.

I like the way that modules can be mixed. I think this should be continued. The modules should be minmaxed to their respective strengths some more, and the argons (in my opinion) need their weapons to become noticeably stronger. Since they don't really have anything else going for them. I do like the idea of having the best ships only possible by flying to a wharf/shipyard of every race and using every strength, instead of ordered a dozen at a time from HOP.

Again, I think there should be a bit of a triangle of strengths. Have Teladi have the best cargo/logistic ships (and slightly better shields), Paranid have the best speed, and give Argon the best guns. As other races appear, they can either mix and match these strengths, or they can find their own niche, like minmaxing for strong shields or strong hulls (ion-proofing!)

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grapedog
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by grapedog » Sat, 15. Dec 18, 06:16

nairax wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 06:50
Also, transport AI really needs to use travel drive properly. It should always attempt to use travel drive, and should only drop out of the travel drive when it is less than 1 km from its target station.
Anything M and above, ESPECIALLY Frieghters and Miners, you need to drop out of travel drive quite a bit before you hit the 1km mark from a gate, unless you're hitting it dead on.

But you have to remember, that we don't care about traffic, in and out of the gates... the AI does. I've only had it happen once so far, where I'm going through a gate at 4000km+ and smash into a friendly carrier that just popped out. Used to happen a LOT more often in X3.

loubert
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by loubert » Sat, 15. Dec 18, 06:58

The fact that the Paranid Destroyer only gets 59.5k shields cannot be ignored. Teladi gets 109k, Argon gets 99.1k. So really, it's a matter of preference. Do you want to be a glass cannon? Or something a little sturdier with maybe a couple fewer turrets?

And the ability to land M ships is neat, but more useful for peacful situations than combat (which is what a destroyer should be doing). If you're going to carrier, go carrier. One M pad does not a carrier make.

Kryptos901
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Kryptos901 » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:27

loubert wrote:
Sat, 15. Dec 18, 06:58
The fact that the Paranid Destroyer only gets 59.5k shields cannot be ignored. Teladi gets 109k, Argon gets 99.1k. So really, it's a matter of preference. Do you want to be a glass cannon? Or something a little sturdier with maybe a couple fewer turrets?

And the ability to land M ships is neat, but more useful for peacful situations than combat (which is what a destroyer should be doing). If you're going to carrier, go carrier. One M pad does not a carrier make.
But that still doesn't make a remotely balanced trade. Paranid destroyer has 60% of the shields and double the firepower.

It's like the freighters: sacrifice 30% cargo for double speed, and the benefits are inherently greater than the losses. This matters a bit less when under player control, but still means the Paranid ships are superior.

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Net-FX
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by Net-FX » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:34

Mr_Cossack wrote:
Fri, 14. Dec 18, 05:00
They also look the best too. :)
Yep, not to mention there seems to be serious continuity of design for Paranid vessels throughout the X series. I TRULY hope the Boron ships retain a similar look as XTC in a future expansion as I lived Boron ships. So organic and sleek :)
Cya - Dave...

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CaptainX4
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Re: Paranid ships are best in class for almost everything.

Post by CaptainX4 » Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:51

Kryptos901 wrote:
Sun, 16. Dec 18, 00:27
loubert wrote:
Sat, 15. Dec 18, 06:58
The fact that the Paranid Destroyer only gets 59.5k shields cannot be ignored. Teladi gets 109k, Argon gets 99.1k. So really, it's a matter of preference. Do you want to be a glass cannon? Or something a little sturdier with maybe a couple fewer turrets?

And the ability to land M ships is neat, but more useful for peacful situations than combat (which is what a destroyer should be doing). If you're going to carrier, go carrier. One M pad does not a carrier make.
But that still doesn't make a remotely balanced trade. Paranid destroyer has 60% of the shields and double the firepower.

It's like the freighters: sacrifice 30% cargo for double speed, and the benefits are inherently greater than the losses. This matters a bit less when under player control, but still means the Paranid ships are superior.
i think 30% cargo for 50% speed is fair trade in a freighter as the point of those ships is cargo hold. also it seems you missed that argons bust everybody on S level pulsar and eclipse beats everything. They ARE very unbalanced mostly for their intended roles, looks like thrown together without real consideration but i dont really see a paranid superiority

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