Fully simulated economy?

[Nexuscrawler]

Now with X4, we have taken another, massive step. For the first time in any X game, all parts of the NPC economy are manufactured from resources. Ships, weapons, upgrades, ammo and even stations. You name it. Everything comes out of the simulated economy.

So was that a lie? I got teleported away between 25.000km and 50.000km from any system due to a bug and there always are ships everywhere. I flew back to civilization and on the way met Miner-Ships, Trader-Ships, Combat Ships ... and almost all of them with several trade items in their cargoholds. They are OBVIOUSLY getting spawned in.

How does anything I do affect the economy if ships with wares are just getting spawned as needed?

[BlackRain]

Now with X4, we have taken another, massive step. For the first time in any X game, all parts of the NPC economy are manufactured from resources. Ships, weapons, upgrades, ammo and even stations. You name it. Everything comes out of the simulated economy.

So was that a lie? I got teleported away between 25.000km and 50.000km from any system due to a bug and there always are ships everywhere. I flew back to civilization and on the way met Miner-Ships, Trader-Ships, Combat Ships ... and almost all of them with several trade items in their cargoholds. They are OBVIOUSLY getting spawned in.

How does anything I do affect the economy if ships with wares are just getting spawned as needed?

Err, I don't know whether the economy is fully simulated or not at this time but if you are making this assumption based on what you just said, I don't see how you can come to this conclusion. The game may start with a lot of ships and more may get built. Be nice to get a good idea of it though. Also, fully simulated economy may not mean no ships are spawned

[Nexuscrawler]

Err, I don't know whether the economy is fully simulated or not at this time but if you are making this assumption based on what you just said, I don't see how you can come to this conclusion.

I see ships appearing out of thin air 50.000km away from anything with full cargoholds and the assumption that this will affect the economy is unreasonable?

Also, fully simulated economy may not mean no ships are spawned.

Then what does it mean? The sentence "Ships, ... You name it. Everything comes out of the simulated economy." is pretty clear I think.
A fully simulated economy shouldn't have unlimited supply by spawning stuff. Ultimately everything should be mined and processed from there.
The description as it is just isn't accurate.

[BlackRain]

Err, I don't know whether the economy is fully simulated or not at this time but if you are making this assumption based on what you just said, I don't see how you can come to this conclusion.

I see ships appearing out of thin air 50.000km away from anything with full cargoholds and the assumption that this will affect the economy is unreasonable?

Also, fully simulated economy may not mean no ships are spawned.

Then what does it mean? The sentence "Ships, ... You name it. Everything comes out of the simulated economy." is pretty clear I think.

Maybe those ships appearing are affected by the warp bug just like the player. Again, I said I don't know for sure and it would be nice to know. The statement you just said could just mean ships are built, doesnt mean all are

[Nexuscrawler]

Maybe those ships appearing are affected by the warp bug just like the player.

When I'm getting teleported it's always to a random location several ten thousand kilometers away. If it is the case that they are affected by the same bug, the NPCs should be all over the place, not all appear infront of me as I fly back to the system.

[BlackRain]

Maybe those ships appearing are affected by the warp bug just like the player.

When I'm getting teleported it's always to a random location several ten thousand kilometers away. If it is the case that they are affected by the same bug, the NPCs should be all over the place, not all appear infront of me as I fly back to the system.

To me it sounds strange though, think about it. If they were spawning ships in, which they might be, why spawn them 50000km away from anywhere? Do you know how long it takes to get back to a populated sector from that far away? It just doesn't make sense to me and the bug may very well warp them exactly where u are, could be part of the bug or not.

[MegaJohnny]

It does sound suspicious. If ships have GTA spawning in X4 then I'm out for sure. But I don't think it's a fair comparison while the map teleport bug is happening.

A better test would be to have a save where the bug didn't occur, and fly some huge distance away. If that still shows freighters and such where they have no reason to be, then we have a problem.

[Nexuscrawler]

Do you know how long it takes to get back to a populated sector from that far away?

Yes, between 2-4 hours, depending on the distance.

If they were spawning ships in, which they might be, why spawn them 50000km away from anywhere?

That is a good point. Maybe I was a bit fast with my judgement, my apologies. That bug must be happening permanently then though, because I don't need to be teleported away to have ships spawn on me. I can also just start burning away from the system into open space and will soon have ships infront of me. They start off with 0 speed and no command and will soon start to fly towards the nearest system.

[BlackRain]

Do you know how long it takes to get back to a populated sector from that far away?

Yes, between 2-4 hours, depending on the distance.

If they were spawning ships in, which they might be, why spawn them 50000km away from anywhere?

That is a good point. Maybe I was a bit fast with my judgement, my apologies. That bug must be happening permanently then though, because I don't need to be teleported away to have ships spawn on me. I can also just start burning away from the system into open space and will soon have ships infront of me. They start off with 0 speed and no command and will soon start to fly towards the nearest system.

I don;t know, I haven't seen a ship spawn in front of me. There is a fog and as I travel I see ships but never saw one spawn.

[Gazz]

All previous versions of X (don't know X:Reb) had a "simulated economy" and I have no doubt that this one does, too.

That does not mean that every ship and every piece of agnu beef must be tracked from start to finish. "Simulation" is a very broad term. =)

[Kaeltheras]

I think on one of the live streams the devs stated that there were measures in place to keep like one faction from being completely destroyed w/o intervention, so maybe it's that engine kicking in? no telling. I've yet to run into ships "spawning" in front of me, and have experienced mass shortages in several key components in station building (the metal T_T)

[Revenant342]

Might still spawn stuff in, but take the spawns out of some kind of faction wallet that depletes as stuff gets spawned in. Would explain why my game is completely devoid of Xenon, Kha'ak, and Scale Plate 20 hours in.

[BlackRain]

I got word from a reliable source that there is no spawning of ships, all ships are built.

[conquestor]

Might still spawn stuff in, but take the spawns out of some kind of faction wallet that depletes as stuff gets spawned in. Would explain why my game is completely devoid of Xenon, Kha'ak, and Scale Plate 20 hours in.

Incorrect, they said factions have "Unlimited" funds in their wallet and are only limited by resources.

Anyone working on the cat extractors so we can look at the jobs.xml ?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if small ships are being spawned in, or if there's a GOD system like in previous games, where if it detects nothing in a system (Unclaimed space in this case), it magically spawns things to make it populated.

[BlackRain]

Might still spawn stuff in, but take the spawns out of some kind of faction wallet that depletes as stuff gets spawned in. Would explain why my game is completely devoid of Xenon, Kha'ak, and Scale Plate 20 hours in.

Incorrect, they said factions have "Unlimited" funds in their wallet and are only limited by resources.

Anyone working on the cat extractors so we can look at the jobs.xml ?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if small ships are being spawned in, or if there's a GOD system like in previous games, where if it detects nothing in a system (Unclaimed space in this case), it magically spawns things to make it populated.

Err, didn't you see my post above this? Not only did I ask around about ship spawning (which they don't spawn) I also went through the jobs file. Every ship is built at a shipyard, no ships spawn anymore.

Here is the code:

Code: Select all

<job id="argon_energycell_trader_l" name="{20204,101}">
    <modifiers rebuild="false" commandeerable="true"/>
    <!--<expirationtime min="14400" max="21600" />-->
    <orders>
      <order order="TradeRoutine" default="true">
        <param name="minbuy" value="0"/>
        <param name="maxbuy" value="5"/>
        <param name="minsell" value="0"/>
        <param name="maxsell" value="5"/>
      </order>
    </orders>
    <basket basket="energycells"/>
    <category faction="argon" tags="[factionlogic, freighter, trader]" size="ship_l"/>
    <quota galaxy="5" cluster="2"/>
    <location class="galaxy" macro="xu_ep2_universe_macro" faction="argon" relation="member" comparison="ge"/>
    <environment buildatshipyard="true"/>
    <ship>
      <select faction="argon" tags="[trader, container]" size="ship_l"/>
      <loadout>
        <level min="0" max="0.4"/>
      </loadout>
      <owner exact="argon" overridenpc="true"/>
    </ship>
  </job>

Key thing here, <environment buildatshipyard="true"/>

Also, after looking through jobs, I saw some cool information in there. Factions definitely expand and contract, lose territory/gain territory but there is logic too it. This makes for potential for modding! Ships are limited by jobs (as in how many ships a faction will build, etc. as a whole but this can be modded easily)

[Revenant342]

Explains the lack of enemies. Since transit paths are pretty linear, they don't seem to be making it more than a system or two from the border. Probably charging into the first potential fight they see and getting chopped up.

Universe feels much safer than I'm used to as a result!

[BlackRain]

Explains the lack of enemies. Since transit paths are pretty linear, they don't seem to be making it more than a system or two from the border. Probably charging into the first potential fight they see and getting chopped up.

Universe feels much safer than I'm used to as a result!

It seems designed so that they are big in their original territories, but as they expand, their forces thin out.

[Falcrack]

I recall when starting out, the station was swarming with ships coming in and out, now, many hours into the game, the station is a ghost town. They have either thinned out by going to a variety of destinations, or been lost due to combat.

[tomchk]

Unless @BlackRain is somehow mistaken, which I seriously doubt, we have a huge step up here in realism! Awesome.

I've noticed the missions I've done so far appear to be generated pretty randomly, but I recall XR had some "emergent" missions based on actual combat, etc. Has anyone seen that or similar in X4?

[BlackRain]

Unless @BlackRain is somehow mistaken, which I seriously doubt, we have a huge step up here in realism! Awesome.

I've noticed the missions I've done so far appear to be generated pretty randomly, but I recall XR had some "emergent" missions based on actual combat, etc. Has anyone seen that or similar in X4?

There are missions like this. So for example, when you work for Argon they have missions like Argon vs Xenon and they ask u to kill certain types of xenon ships. No ships are spawned you have to just find xenon ships and blow them up wherever they may be. Also, they have station construction missions which has you obviously building stations, they also ask for crewman like managers, etc. They should be actually using these I think.