Results of mining survey for new beta

[MSterling]

I think that miners need to be more sensible about probes and should be able to scout for resources just like, uh, scouts, do. Either as part of "Explore" or as a "Prospect" command. Enter a sector, fly around to resources, drop a probe, see if it is a decent amount (the computer is a cheating b**d, so it can just look at the table), then if not, pick the probe up and try another place. Put up to two down, per region that has its own type of resource mix, and then if prospecting another sector, go there and repeat.
Some aid to make early game player-actioned prospecting should be made either easier or more profitable. E.g. early game there would be profligate use of the "please scout out resources" mission. This could replace a lot of the crystal mining startup that most games use, because it is quite chill, safe, and you can get into a zen pattern. IMO the "boring" nature balances this out: you can make far more per hour with a decent mining ship or trader or balanced station, than you can with crystals, so these are only really early game or timewasting as you wait for something to happen. I frequently fly in regions that the long range scan shows has resources with the short range scan mode on so I can see where there are big honking rocks of mineable constitution, to drop a probe. Maybe, if this is how to do it, make it part of the mining tutorial mission. Heck, have a gamestart START with the tutorial, make you, in effect, the NPC hired by the computer for the first few hours, after which you get to select what ship you want to start with out of the cheap ones you were presented with during your time.
Making the price of resources drop, but reducing their volume-per-unit would likely help a lot too. The demand of ores are so huge that you can always sell at max profit as a miner. Cutting the volume makes the NPCs fill the demand easier (and the storage should be set to "five hours of production" or similar, not "we randomly added a 1 million cubic meter storage and only need ore, so there we go!", so that the prices will actually fluctuate), cutting the price makes everything cheaper, though, so it may not be possible to do some of this, and maybe therefore ANY of it, the system is a simulation eating its own tail, you can't change one without changing it all.
However, it might be possible to do it like this:
Either
1) Half the price for selling raw materials. Nerfs the profit of running a straight miner. Refineries make out a lot better.
Or
2) Make miners consider distance more than profit. Makes it possible for refineries or even just storage stations that middle-man their way, the miner sells ore for 30, a new minimum, to the storage station, the storage station sells for 50, a new maximum (example numbers).
Or
3) Reduce volume to 2 or 3 m3 per item.
Reduce cost per unit by half, this increases the profit per hour for mining by 50%, but if it is a lot slower, this could balance out.
Slow refining rate by half to keep the profit per hour at refining the same.
Add plastics from methane or from plants (bioplastics), add it to hull parts requirements (as well as metals, you have carbon fibre panels/surfaces, but you also need plastics for cases, seats, utensils, cupboards, screens (transparent plastics) and other fittings. This would allow you to keep hull parts at the same price, ending the escalation of process profits because EVERYTHING uses hull parts. Heck "bioplastics" could be bioproducts like textiles, lubricants (carbon as graphene is a lubricant, so carbon in hull parts could be packaged lubricant stores), and used as an additional product for station construction. Unless you like sleeping under a steel bedsheet on a steel beam mattress... Bioproducts would therefore be an addition to either hull parts (adding the plastics and a tiny amount of textiles) or added as part of ship construction, the former would be easier to balance, though.

Option 3 is a lot more work, may not stabilise, and therefore be unworkable.

I wonder if terrans will require different things to build their tech (especially ships and equipment), to balance them out: they are more powerful per credit, but you need a bespoke loop for much of their kit. It would allow for "obsoleted" tech to be produced with the same stuff as currently, but THOSE ships to be underpowered, IOW Argon-like, while their newest upgrades are vastly more powerful, but also vastly more expensive, getting a balance for their tech. It could also help if Borons are brought in with their semi-organic ships requiring something other than hull parts for the exterior, using hull parts only for internal structures and station modules. If terrans require some bespoke terran only tech, this could beta test how the game code reacts to it in a more limited form (Boron ships may require a different code loop to simulate the skin being grown, for example).

[Bernd]

Some people in this thread are worried about depletion increasing the need for micro management of their mining fleets:

Depletion has always been a possibility. Inside a region, when smaller areas deplete, mining ships move automatically as the miner autonomously decides where inside the region to find better yield. Depleting the entire region is not a thing a single ship could do but only a large fleet over a long time.

So in summary I don't think there is much reason to fear more micromanagement because of faster region depletion. Where there might be more micromanagement however, is in reacting to increased attacks on miner ships. It is fully intentional from our side, that mining in general gets more dangerous and this is even more true in more remote areas, after moving resources away from the center.

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

[Raevyan]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

[easternsun]

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.

[Bernd]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

Search in the periphery... there is a way

[MSterling]

Some people in this thread are worried about depletion increasing the need for micro management of their mining fleets

As far as I can tell, the new proposed paradigm is that probes will be used to determine automagically where the fleets will mine, insofar as when a region is depleted, or so badly so that it is a waste of time mining there, the AI script will spot a better location to mine via the probes already there.
So if you don't probe out a few regions, you will have to micromanage more, but probes remove the need to micromanage, so they become a much more useful tool, not for letting you know where to go for resources, but to remove the need for you to care.

Would this be roughly correct?

[Tidaar]

Thanks guys for sharing the poll outcome and stats. Really great work on transparency, I personally appreciate it very much.

On the Khaak threat , I had some show up suddenly in a sector of mine. And I was like no way they pop like that , it is not fair. Then I went on a search and found the little buggers had built a station. I eliminated it and they were gone. I was really impressed and happy about this. Very sneaky Egosoft but brilliant.

[taztaz502]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though. Please give us an option to resupply lost ships with our own wharfs.

This would make it so you could babysit miners in the early game to ensure they survive because you can't afford replacements but late game it i don't want to be babysitting mining ships or replacing escorts constantly.

[Raevyan]

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

[Tidaar]

How do you end a local khaak threat for a longer period if they respawn After 5 minutes next to your miners? As many people are reporting the police/patrol commands are pretty much useless to protect assets. Escorts still fly ahead/lack behind when they got different speeds.

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

Yes that seems to be the idea, playing TAG with the Khaak. Surprise you get a Khaak. The shame... if their mother-ship would see what they have become in X4 she would roll in her grave.

[GCU Grey Area]

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though.

Recommend using L class miners if you don't want to bother replacing miners or assigning escorts. In my experience they've been pretty much impervious to anything the Khaak can throw at them & don't really need escorts at all.

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

That could be a good thing if it ends up being someone else's problem. Might be someone I really don't like. Personally would be delighted if a Khaak station relocated to Argon Prime - I'm already herding the Xenon in their direction, but the more the merrier (playing as ZYA Split in my current game).

[Alan Phipps]

Maybe we need a 'Final Final Fury' ?

[TheDeliveryMan]

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.

Repeat Orders are your friend. You can tell them to mine or buy from a mining outpost and sell at the other end of the universe. You can even put "fly to" commands in between to keep them away from dangerous regions.

[easternsun]

Search in the periphery... there is a way

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

Yes that seems to be the idea, playing TAG with the Khaak. Surprise you get a Khaak. The shame... if their mother-ship would see what they have become in X4 she would roll in her grave.

Once the turrets are fixed attacking the station will actually take a real fleet I'm hoping. I don't hate this as the game gets too safe in player sectors. They just need to fix the patrol and distress probes actually doing something when your ships get attacked. IN Beta 8 the amount of probes I see are gone compared to a few versions back where I could see multiple being sent.

[taztaz502]

Replacing mining ships/escorts is an unwarranted chore though.

Recommend using L class miners if you don't want to bother replacing miners or assigning escorts. In my experience they've been pretty much impervious to anything the Khaak can throw at them & don't really need escorts at all.

Don’t the Khaak stations just spawn somewhere else if destroyed? That just moves the problem to a different area.

That could be a good thing if it ends up being someone else's problem. Might be someone I really don't like. Personally would be delighted if a Khaak station relocated to Argon Prime - I'm already herding the Xenon in their direction, but the more the merrier (playing as ZYA Split in my current game).

My M class perform fine currently, they can take on and escape multiple xenon/khaak OOS i'm just wondering with the new changes. I also wouldn't want to sacrifice a whole selection of ships just to accommodate changes to mining which is why i suggested automation to replace lost ships.

I would rather them not change anything at all than implement it poorly is what I'm getting at.

[Artean]

Thanks guys for sharing the poll outcome and stats. Really great work on transparency, I personally appreciate it very much.

On the Khaak threat , I had some show up suddenly in a sector of mine. And I was like no way they pop like that , it is not fair. Then I went on a search and found the little buggers had built a station. I eliminated it and they were gone. I was really impressed and happy about this. Very sneaky Egosoft but brilliant.

This. I think it is a great new feature.

[FatalKeks]

So in summary I don't think there is much reason to fear more micromanagement because of faster region depletion. Where there might be more micromanagement however, is in reacting to increased attacks on miner ships. It is fully intentional from our side, that mining in general gets more dangerous and this is even more true in more remote areas, after moving resources away from the center.

The intention here is for the player to make a trade off between either more micromanagement (taken to the extreme, by actually going into the sector and ending a local Khaak threat for a longer period of time for example) OR simply throwing more money at the problem either by assigning fighters OR simply eating up the loss of mining ships over time and getting new ones.

I think, it's okay for mining to become more dangerous. But I also would like to see some tools to handle the danger more efficiently.

• One simple solution would be a "protect (my) ships/assets in sector(s)" order. Since "patrol" is a bit random. The ships following this order would auto-help other ships which are beeing attacked in the corresponding sector(s). (This is actually the behaviour I would expect from the "patrol" order.)
• Another more complicated solution could be a "replacement manager" for fleets, which auto replaces lost ships. This would actually be a great QoL feature and would also be very usefull in other situations.

[easternsun]

The bigger issue I'm seeing is once an economy outgrows a core sector keeping them supplied starts taxing the 5 sector limit.
If you want us to expand our empires we need a way to have stations interact with the farther mining stations without having to create 3 trade stations between them.

After Beta 8 I've moved my mining operations to the edges where Methane and ore are more available. This has required me to use 5 times the ships to handle the transfer and exchange of wares between the trade stations. It also creates a supply chain issue as before I could have a Just in time delivery system. Now I have to have station request 3 times the wares to have enough trade orders flying to supply due to the distance. This in turn requires larger trading stations with large storages to keep the incoming Trade orders and outgoing orders requested so the miners don't stop mining when the buy orders get filled.

Repeat Orders are your friend. You can tell them to mine or buy from a mining outpost and sell at the other end of the universe. You can even put "fly to" commands in between to keep them away from dangerous regions.

For the beginning player the current Report Orders works. For late game players is a management nightmare and is worse than the pilot leveling design. I have 500 L class miners. To setup rules manually for each one stops making this a game and turns it into a Job.

[Tidaar]

Maybe we need a 'Final Final Fury' ?

Absolutely! Aunt Khaak is mad that they killed her sister and invades the Terrans. Those smug arrogant earthlings.

[dtpsprt]

All nice and dandy herr Bernd but still no mention of the elephant in the room: Pilot skill levelling...
And, of course, the fact that moving the resources in the periphery will, eventually, stall providing the faction's factories in the "core" sectors who are, of course, adjacent to the ring. Again the lack of experienced pilots to pick up profitable (and meaningful) trade runs, since this is dependent on their skill level and only the range of the total jobs on offer depends on the Manager's skill.