Deconstructed dock destroys ships

[Toastysoul]

The Astrid I got from ToA was unceremoniously destroyed because I replaced the dock at my HQ with a bigger one.

Why is it the docks don't eject the internal ships stored in them before being deconstructed? Or at least some kind of warning that the dock isn't empty on the Station Configuration page?

System should be smarter than that.

[db48x]

Yep, it has always done that. Guess what happens if you are inside the ship when it is destroyed?

[Imperial Good]

As far as I am aware this applies to piers as well. Deconstructing a pier while a L or XL ship is docked with it destroys the L or XL ship.

[Toastysoul]

Ok, it's always done that, but does that seem like how it should work? No warnings and all? If you are a little busy in the map interface and you miss the ridiculously subtle 'ship destroyed' notice that only displays in the 3D world for a few seconds like 10 in game hours ago?

Just seems like by version 7, someone could do better than that.

[db48x]

I’m only saying that it has always worked that way, and people bring it up all the time. Expecting anyone to change it now is a waste of your time.

Since you didn’t guess, I’ll just tell you: if you are sitting in a ship that is docked at a module that is deconstructed, the ship you are in is destroyed and you are killed. Instant “Game Over” screen, do not pass “Go”, do not eject into space.

[Alan Phipps]

Think of an aircraft carrier deck - it cannot easily eject pilotless aircraft parked on it. However, if the carrier were sinking, you might expect active pilots of planes on the deck to notice and try to do something about saving their aircraft.

I think the mechanism of ships dying if the NPC station module they are docked at is destroyed is a fair hazard because it is likely that an enemy that can take out a station module can obliterate a few ships there too to further their point. Artificial plot actions such as making the Boron carrier disappear after that plot should indeed have safeguards or warnings for or about docked ships. However, if you are the one ordering the dock to go while you have ships parked there, then maybe that needed a bit of preparation and forethought. Still, perhaps your active pilots should notice something is up and do or say something too.

[jlehtone]

Does station have one internal storage, or each module their own? I.e. if you have two docks, ship in internal, and you de-construct one module, does the ship go with it or stay in the remaining storage? (With piers it should be clear that ship is with specific pier?)


(With two habitats and crew to fit one the removal of habitat does not touch the crew.
I wonder what happens with mixed, say ARG and TEL habitats that each have 100 crew -- will removal of TEL module take away the 100 that came for Nostrop, or will there miraculously be 200 Beefeater?)

[Mookau]

The Astrid I got from ToA was unceremoniously destroyed because I replaced the dock at my HQ with a bigger one.

Why is it the docks don't eject the internal ships stored in them before being deconstructed? Or at least some kind of warning that the dock isn't empty on the Station Configuration page?

System should be smarter than that.

While it does suck that it gives no warning (and ideally ships would all undock as a critical order before deconstruction begins), hopefully you can find solace that you can at least get another Astrid.

ToA Plot Spoilers Ahead:

If you chose to

Spoiler

Show

side with the twins - simply buy another from them.

Otherwise, if you

Spoiler

Show

didn't - you will find one either circling around either the casino or tidebreak station, and you can capture it by causing them to bail.

[BitByte]

Does station have one internal storage, or each module their own? I.e. if you have two docks, ship in internal, and you de-construct one module, does the ship go with it or stay in the remaining storage? (With piers it should be clear that ship is with specific pier?)

Multiple S/M docks share same internal storage. So if have 2 S/M docks you can park ships, put them to internal storage and destroy 1 S/M dock without loosing ships which are in internal storage.

(With two habitats and crew to fit one the removal of habitat does not touch the crew.
I wonder what happens with mixed, say ARG and TEL habitats that each have 100 crew -- will removal of TEL module take away the 100 that came for Nostrop, or will there miraculously be 200 Beefeater?)

In mixed habitats case you will loose TEL workers if you destroy their habitat module.

[Caedes91]

Do demolition companies in your country destroy buildings when people are inside them? And I'm not talking about intentionally killing enemies or civilians in war.

If not, then it should be like this ingame too.

[BitByte]

Do demolition companies in your country destroy buildings when people are inside them? And I'm not talking about intentionally killing enemies or civilians in war.

If not, then it should be like this ingame too.

Usually demo company makes sure area is clear before blows things up. And in this particular case demo company owner, safety responsible and demo operator is OP so it's player's responsible to make sure premises are clear for removal. So should "space court" sue OP in this case not following processes and double check before blow up dock module?

[geldonyetich]

Though it would add to the sophistication a bit, I could see a moderately simple implementation of having deconstructed docks first place all ships in internal storage.

Granted, I suspect then some players would complain of their ships being stuck and irretrievable until another dock is built.

So, from an engineering perspective, this may lend further to the conclusion that you should probably encourage the players to move their ships instead.

Though, in support of the original claim I will point out there's currently no way to remotely move ships from one dock to another on the same station.

[Nanook]

Though it would add to the sophistication a bit, I could see a moderately simple implementation of having deconstructed docks first place all ships in internal storage....

Wouldn't work unless there was another already built dock. Ship internal storage is in the dock itself, so destroying the dock destroys internal storage. I once had the same problem as the OP, for the same reasons, so now I always wait until the new dock is constructed before removing the old one. Even then, I usually recall all the internally docked ships to the new dock before returning them to internal storage, just in case.

[geldonyetich]

Oof. From time to time I wish we did things like in X3 where laser towers, missiles, and drones were cargo based. Then add ships in internal storage to that. If it fell under the purview of mod files I would be tempted to test that.

But under such a state we would probably be better served by integrating varying capabilities into the hulls themselves. Things like docks or launching bays are already in. You would want to add things like maximum deployable units, integrated missile launchers, reload mechanisms, rate of fighter deployment, and such. This would be neccessary to differentiate a fighter carrier from a cargo Freighter, a drone carrier from a bomber, etc.

Maybe X5 could do something like that. It would help to balance things like laser tower spam if maximum active towers were tied to a ship's CPU processing capacity. Or perhaps even normalize the faction and player ship caps by requiring all ships be tied to logistics support ranges of their docks.

[Toastysoul]

All I'm really asking for a simple check of the dock's storage for ship count. If count >0 then disallow removal from the construction screen and warn the player the dock isn't empty.

The game is vast and at any one time there are many things I need to keep on top of. Which ships are stored in which dock was not even on that list. While I'm now aware that removing the last remaining dock will delete the ships stored in it without warning, I believe that's is a programmatically lazy way of handling the problem and it is a problem. Players should not just silently lose ships in their own stations from normal construction activities.

If a lone dock housing ships is destroyed via combat, that's fair loss. Changing the dock from being pointed in one direction to another so NPC pilots stops getting confused should not result in the loss of stored ships. This isn't asking for my hand to be held, it's reasonable to let the player know the storage of a building isn't empty before destroying it via a remote interface from 13 sectors away. Also consider that remote interface also lacks any indication that you have lost a ship, except that it quietly disappears from the list of ships that is very long. That too doesn't seem reasonable. Shouldn't the ship name at least turn red in the interface for a bit?

[PV_]

The worst thing is when player ships docked at NPC construction storage and faction just decides to remove that plot. Yeah, faction may remove plot before building. All docked player ships just disappear afterwards.

[geldonyetich]

That does seem reasonable. It just introduces a little sophistication:

• Implement callback to see if dock is occupied to inform player before allowing deconstructing.
• Implement check to see if build storage has ships docked there before deconstructing plot.
• Add further checks to see if circumstances have changed and we can now move on.
• Make a design choice of what to do if a ship refuses to vacate.

Etc. That's just spitballing pseudo logic before you even look at the code. I'm trying to guess how hard it would be to add. But it feels kind of rude of me to do, really, it's none of my buisiness how X4 is coded. I might as well be guessing what Bernd keeps in his underwear drawer.

My preference would be to force all ships at that dock to undock and queue a redock at the same station if available. Otherwise they're just floating around undocked and frankly that's about what you deserve for negligently deconstructing the dock right under them. But deconstructing the ships without asking is much too severe.

[Toastysoul]

I think the issue with having them auto undock is that pilot-less ships should not do so. I think the issue is also one of a failure to adequately notify the player of a lost ship when in the map interface. Why is there not at least a unique sound cue option for lost ships? Seems important early and maybe mid-game.

[donzi]

I tested (beta version) this just out of curiosity the other day.. I expect it's the same with 6.20, but funny thing is the manager is still there in an invisible office.
I teleported back to the station to see what happened. If on the station during deconstruction you can see the lights (hallway at any rate, I wasn't in the office during the demolition) dim on the dock inside, which later return.

..def can confirm docked ship loss, but was also interested in staff loss and further, since this was the HQ I wanted to see if there was actually an internal office on the station like the player has..nope. Doesn't need one to save the manager from death since they survive in an invisible office. hehe.

Question left unanswered so far, does the manager migrate among multiple docks.. wondering if that is why sometimes I think the manager door location changes sides (for NPC reps etc too afaik).