Which recurring feature request would you like to see implemented first?

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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Which recurring feature request would you like to see implemented first?

Proper Interstellar Trading
35
36%
Unassign/Reassign Commands for CV
2
2%
Interiors, Bridges, More Commands for Capital Ships
28
29%
Fighter Docking on Carriers
15
15%
More Factions and Star Systems
16
16%
Windows
2
2%
 
Total votes: 98

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Fri, 20. Mar 15, 21:36

Luanda wrote:... its not like there are no different ships in xr, its just that there is no value in their differences
Personally, I disagree...

While it is true that some of the ship differences do seem to have marginal value there is value. Addressing this is where ship rebalancing/balancing comes into play.

Some of the ships seem worthless when looking at their stats on paper but it is not entirely true when it comes to in practice. Dedicated mining/collecting ships for instance may look like they are poor choices when compared with some of the general purpose ones but in practice they will typically be faster at gathering the relevant resources. This is perhaps most significant when looking at what ships to allocate to your stations.

If we look at the X3 games, the diversity in ships did not really have as big an effect as it did with X2. With X2 the diversity was significant (every ship had a use in the main) but the variety was not as great. With X3, it did not really matter which M7M you picked for example as in general they were considered big "I win" ships (did we really need 5 different versions of it? - other than for lore reasons).

In X-Rebirth, the diversity is closer to that of X2 IMO - while you may be able to just fill out your trading fleet with Lyramekrons and be done with it you would probably be missing out on the benefits of the nuances of the other purpose built vessels.

To me even though I have a Lyramekron myself as my primary personal trade ship I think their cost is a little too prohibitive and their manouverability a little too sluggish for wholesale deployment. I must admit, that I have not invested in the dedicated mining ships yet but then my fleet has not hit the point where I am spread thin on my universal ship resources yet (courtesy of Titurel boarding sprees in DeVries pre-V2.5 primarily), when I hit that point then the other dedicated vessels will start to find a place in my fleet(s).

Bespoke ship orders like you are indicating may come in time, but TBH that seems to fall under the scope of Item 3 in the OP's pole ;)
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

Luanda
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Post by Luanda » Fri, 20. Mar 15, 23:58

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:
Luanda wrote:... its not like there are no different ships in xr, its just that there is no value in their differences
Personally, I disagree...

While it is true that some of the ship differences do seem to have marginal value there is value. Addressing this is where ship rebalancing/balancing comes into play.

Some of the ships seem worthless when looking at their stats on paper but it is not entirely true when it comes to in practice. Dedicated mining/collecting ships for instance may look like they are poor choices when compared with some of the general purpose ones but in practice they will typically be faster at gathering the relevant resources. This is perhaps most significant when looking at what ships to allocate to your stations.

If we look at the X3 games, the diversity in ships did not really have as big an effect as it did with X2. With X2 the diversity was significant (every ship had a use in the main) but the variety was not as great. With X3, it did not really matter which M7M you picked for example as in general they were considered big "I win" ships (did we really need 5 different versions of it? - other than for lore reasons).

In X-Rebirth, the diversity is closer to that of X2 IMO - while you may be able to just fill out your trading fleet with Lyramekrons and be done with it you would probably be missing out on the benefits of the nuances of the other purpose built vessels.

To me even though I have a Lyramekron myself as my primary personal trade ship I think their cost is a little too prohibitive and their manouverability a little too sluggish for wholesale deployment. I must admit, that I have not invested in the dedicated mining ships yet but then my fleet has not hit the point where I am spread thin on my universal ship resources yet (courtesy of Titurel boarding sprees in DeVries pre-V2.5 primarily), when I hit that point then the other dedicated vessels will start to find a place in my fleet(s).

Bespoke ship orders like you are indicating may come in time, but TBH that seems to fall under the scope of Item 3 in the OP's pole ;)
you dont get it do you? there are just no different kind of tradings to use their differences, hence their differences have no value. you can do whatever you want with one personally chosen trader ship but you will hardly manage 20 different trader ships for their values manually and the managers cant use different ships for different purposes. so... can you use like 3 different trader? one for stations one for cv and one for personal trading? bah

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 01:18

Luanda wrote:can you use like 3 different trader?
Easily, those 3 ships I mentioned earlier (Albatross XLB, Lepton & Lyramekron) just formed the core of my personal trade fleet in my last game (there were several additional ships) & each of them had their individual roles.

Albatross handled almost all of my trade in bulk goods, biggest hold in the game so significantly higher profits from trading wheat (etc) than using any of my other ships.

Lepton was my personal trade ship/jumpdrive taxi. Tended to be IZ with it all the time so wanted something small, fast & agile. Hold is tiny compared to the rest of the ships in the trade fleet but was generally sufficient for trading high value wares (e.g. drones).

Lyramekron has a decent sized universal hold, a frankly ludicrous number of guns & a price tag to match. Only owned 1 of them (couldn't justify the expense of more than 1) but it was ideal for sending on the trade runs which I considered too dangerous for a conventional freighter (e.g. Teladi sectors).

In addition to those also had half a dozen dedicated mining ships (4 Vulture Bulk Miners & 2 Liquids), along with a Vulture Container for general purpose trade duties & a Styrvok Container/Energy hybrid, primarily used to assist with station building.

That's the thing about XR, the trade computer makes it viable to conduct trade using a MUCH bigger personal fleet of MORTs than was remotely feasible in any of the old games. I find XRs trading satisfying precisely because I have direct personal involvement with my trade fleet, choosing where every ship goes & what it carries, rather than just setting up trade ships & leaving them to get on with it (as I tended to do in X2 & X3).

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Post by Luanda » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 01:45

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Luanda wrote:can you use like 3 different trader?
Easily, those 3 ships I mentioned earlier (Albatross XLB, Lepton & Lyramekron) just formed the core of my personal trade fleet in my last game (there were several additional ships) & each of them had their individual roles.

Albatross handled almost all of my trade in bulk goods, biggest hold in the game so significantly higher profits from trading wheat (etc) than using any of my other ships.

Lepton was my personal trade ship/jumpdrive taxi. Tended to be IZ with it all the time so wanted something small, fast & agile. Hold is tiny compared to the rest of the ships in the trade fleet but was generally sufficient for trading high value wares (e.g. drones).

Lyramekron has a decent sized universal hold, a frankly ludicrous number of guns & a price tag to match. Only owned 1 of them (couldn't justify the expense of more than 1) but it was ideal for sending on the trade runs which I considered too dangerous for a conventional freighter (e.g. Teladi sectors).

In addition to those also had half a dozen dedicated mining ships (4 Vulture Bulk Miners & 2 Liquids), along with a Vulture Container for general purpose trade duties & a Styrvok Container/Energy hybrid, primarily used to assist with station building.

That's the thing about XR, the trade computer makes it viable to conduct trade using a MUCH bigger personal fleet of MORTs than was remotely feasible in any of the old games. I find XRs trading satisfying precisely because I have direct personal involvement with my trade fleet, choosing where every ship goes & what it carries, rather than just setting up trade ships & leaving them to get on with it (as I tended to do in X2 & X3).
haha. i didnt ask how can you use 3 different traders, i said thats all you can do in XR... but nice rant btw :)

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Post by Snafu_X3 » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 02:31

'Rant'?
Wiki X:R 1st Tit capping
Wiki X3:TC vanilla: Guide to generic missions, Guide to finding & capping Aran
Never played AP; all X3 advice is based on vanilla+bonus pack TC or before: AP has not changed much WRT general advice.

I know how to spell teladiuminumiumium, I just don't know when to stop!

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Graaf
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Post by Graaf » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 06:41

GCU Grey Area wrote:
NodusCursorius wrote:In short: The Trade part no longer requires the Think part.
Is there really any need to insult people who prefer to play the Trader in XR?
I would love to play the Trader in Rebirth. Unfortunately it only allows me to play the Manager.

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 08:11

Luanda wrote:
Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:...
you dont get it do you? there are just no different kind of tradings to use their differences, hence their differences have no value. you can do whatever you want with one personally chosen trader ship but you will hardly manage 20 different trader ships for their values manually and the managers cant use different ships for different purposes. so... can you use like 3 different trader? one for stations one for cv and one for personal trading? bah
You are the one who does not seem to get it...

There is not just one type of economy trading goods, there are 4 economy goods types (exc. the special case of Fuel) - Bulk, Liquid (and Gas), Energy, and Container. Not all trade ships can carry every ware type and not all ships can mine asteroids or collect gasses/liquids either, so while you personally do not have direct control over what each ship does when under control of a station manager by outfitting ships appropriately you can limit the scope of their operations to a degree. The station manager is a fire-and-forget system in the main (allocate station trading resources and let them manage them). IME the system works well enough but no-one is saying it is perfect.

As GCU pointed out, for personal trading you can use different ships in your fleet for different purposes employing your own knowledge of each ship's capabilities. I would argue it is part of the Think aspect of the game (something you claimed was missing) to let the player determine how best to utilise each ship in the personal trade fleet. This situation is little different from the X-Trilogy in some ways except the rules over ships carrying wares is slightly more restrictive.

Where PC owned station trading is concerned, the manager AI could probably do with some improvement either in execution or configuration but that is nothing explicitly to do with ship diversity nor does it remove the think part from trading either (you still have to allocate appropriate ships outfitted for appropriate capabilities - e.g. Resource collection capable ships need to be loaded out with appropriate drones to enable a manager to use them for resource collection).

From the general vein of where this discussion has been heading, you want more control over how a manager deploys their assets but that is not the way that this discussion started and was not even close to being clearly explained in the discussion trigger post (nor really the intervening posts) if that is your actual concern.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 08:20

Luanda wrote: haha. i didnt ask how can you use 3 different traders, i said thats all you can do in XR... but nice rant btw :)
Snafu quoted a question asking if 3 traders can be used. If you meant that as a statement you should try and write less ambiguously to avoid people laughing at you.

If you're only using 3 different traders for use with personal trading, CVs and stations that's your choice, just as it would be the choice of other to potentially consider that unnecessarily self-limiting and inefficient.

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Post by NodusCursorius » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 08:29

Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:As for "how" v. "if" you can acquire money, nothing has really changed on that score except by the ability to queue trades

...

This situation is little different from the X-Trilogy in some ways
I provided over ten examples in what has changed. You are introducing intellectual dishonesty at this point.
Vim Razz wrote:Most of the things you're mentioning in this post have never really featured in X3's core game...
I stated, specifically, the examples included in core X3 gameplay without even dipping into mods or bonus packs. "never really" doesn't seem like you want to make a definitive disagreement with that, either.
GCU Grey Area wrote:I find XRs trading satisfying precisely because I have direct personal involvement with my trade fleet
This feature has already existed in prior X games and is unrelated to X R.


Whenever I attempt to have a discussion my citations are ignored, my examples are ignored, and instead of remaining on topic to address specific things I have stated, it is turned around in the fashion of personal discussion instead of objective debate:
GCU Grey Area wrote:Is there really any need to insult people who prefer to play the Trader in XR?
Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:You may not like the nature of the trading
Roger L.S. Griffiths wrote:I do not know how much you have played the games as your forum account seems relatively new but I have put 1000's of hours into this series and what I have stated is based on my experience.
Taking offense over disagreement, stating the obvious nature of disagreements when that is the point of this topic, and trying to shoehorn in account age with the game experience.... no.

I give up on this side of the community. Be at peace.

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Sam L.R. Griffiths
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Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 11:20

@NodusC: Intellectual dishonesty? I am sorry but if that is what you think then you are way off base. Trading in X-games has never at a big picture level been about "if" you can acquire money in-game. Some trades you may make profit (with careful consideration massive profit), others you may make a loss or just break even but it has rarely been an exercise in gambling. You may try to deny it, but gazumping of trades does cause issues with AI controlled (and looped point-to-point) trading under certain circumstances.

My comment about forum account age and linking it to game experience is based on the fact that most new forum members are new to the game. You claimed that something is not the case that definitely is, which gives further weight to the assumption that you are relatively new to the series. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is not a case of derogatory "noob" critique that is unfortunately common in the MMO crowd (though I can see how someone might take it that way).

None of us know everything about the game, and depending on how each of us play it we may each encounter different experiences. Just because any one of us encounter a given issue does not mean everyone else will encounter the same situation, that does not mean the issue in question does/did not exist.

Yes, X-Rebirth is a different game in many ways from the X-Trilogy (no-one argues that is it not) but while things have changed quite substantially in form the general "spirit" of the game (for want of a better term) has not in the main.

Trading in X-Rebirth works pretty much the same as it did in previous games, nothing has been removed per se. The main difference being that while the space may feel bigger in essence there are less stations thus less spread in the trading web which obviously gives the impression of less competition for the production of certain goods.

This does of course make it harder for the player to muscle in as the primary supplier of any given goods but to me that was never a core feature of an X-game.
I enjoy trading. I enjoyed the myriad of problems I had to solve and how some of them required more, or less, levels of direct interaction. How there was variation between difficulty of solving trade routes and how managing a solution without tanking faction reputation, due to pushing out competing traders, was a part of that.

All of that is removed. We're left with a bare-bones trading system when compared to X3 that doesn't actually improve upon the dynamics that were left behind.
What you have complained about specifically in the quoted points would possibly be addressed in part by option 1 in the OP's poll.

The claims that "things were removed" is the bit that probably gets most people's goat. In essence, nothing has been removed it is just that X-Rebirth is basically representing a universe that is re-emerging from a prolonged period of fragmentation of the original factions (and isolation of the new factions from each other). The implications of this is that the well established inter-dependent cross-universe economy that was present in X3 is no longer there and as a result the nature of how the player interacts with it has changed.

If you were expecting the same level of economic interaction between all the different factions in X-Rebirth that we had in X3 then you seem to have ignored (at least part of) the primary lore aspects behind X-Rebirth.

The universe economy situation may be different in the sequel to X-Rebirth or perhaps will be mutated/extended in a patch/DLC but other than that there is always the potential for a mod to be developed that facilitates the degree of economic interaction you seem to be looking for.

In short, trading in X-Rebirth is more localised and flow of trade is not restricted/facilitated by a vast network of gates (which the player could alter via the Xenon Hub in X3:TC/X3:AP). This means certain challenges that perhaps had to be overcome in previous games to achieve certain goals using certain approaches are no longer a factor but in their place there are other considerations.

The network of Highways in any given cluster is the main focus of trade routes (to coin your term) but where the bulk of trading is concerned those highways are largely irrelevant as the larger trade ships can boost between zones in the same sector (and jump directly to an adjacent sector with-in the same cluster). In X-Rebirth (as with all the X-Trilogy games), it is proximity of stations that dictate preferred trading targets in the main not specific trade routes.

With Jump Gates and jump drives as they stand, personally I have concerns that increased trans-jump-gate traffic will cause other problems due to the speed with which the AI currently navigates through the jump gates.
Lenna (aka [SRK] The_Rabbit)

"Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side... and the Truth!" - J.J. Sheriden, Babylon 5 S4E6 T28:55

"May god stand between you and harm in all the dark places you must walk." - Ancient Egyption Proverb

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time" - Creighton Abrams

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Post by Lander1979 » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 12:16

X Rebirth is not comparable to X-3 in any manner. Nothing that was in X-3 has been removed in X-Rebirth, It simply Doesn't exist yet or may never.

EGO may, as a company, have been around for 25+ years, but for many of the Artists and Devs, This is their first Rodeo in the X universe. Many of them weren't around when "Y" feature was implemented in X-2 or X-3.

X-Rebirth is a completely different game engine than the old X-BTF Legacy Engine, and that means you can't just cut and paste features from X-3 into Rebirth as the two are completely different creatures.

These so-called "removed" features have to be built up again from scratch in the new engine, and if the original development of the X-BTF engine is anything to go by that is going to take years, as well as cooperation between the players and the Dev team, as to what needs to be implemented, and how.

It's no good stamping your feet and getting rowdy chanting slogans to bring back "Y" feature the way it was back in "X-#" as that simply isn't an option, only patience, cooperation, and goodwill towards others will serve you well here in this respect.
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Post by Luanda » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 13:14

Lander1979 wrote:X Rebirth is not comparable to X-3 in any manner. Nothing that was in X-3 has been removed in X-Rebirth, It simply Doesn't exist yet or may never.

EGO may, as a company, have been around for 25+ years, but for many of the Artists and Devs, This is their first Rodeo in the X universe. Many of them weren't around when "Y" feature was implemented in X-2 or X-3.

X-Rebirth is a completely different game engine than the old X-BTF Legacy Engine, and that means you can't just cut and paste features from X-3 into Rebirth as the two are completely different creatures.

These so-called "removed" features have to be built up again from scratch in the new engine, and if the original development of the X-BTF engine is anything to go by that is going to take years, as well as cooperation between the players and the Dev team, as to what needs to be implemented, and how.

It's no good stamping your feet and getting rowdy chanting slogans to bring back "Y" feature the way it was back in "X-#" as that simply isn't an option, only patience, cooperation, and goodwill towards others will serve you well here in this respect.
well. no. any code written on a x286 in C can be used in vs c# in 2015. the programming is not about a line of characters, the programming is about logic. and the logic is what isnt ported from x3 into xr. just look at the menu. in x2/x3 they had to learn that people prefer simple, quick, easy to see colored, organised menus even if they have multiple levels and not aesthetic. this is just a logic they had 20 years to learn. what they did to xr? made crappy interlaced textures, barely visible texts, multiple menus, disorganised, slow, buttons are everywhere except where it would be logical and dismissed rightclick interactivity. THEY FREAKIN HAD IT ALREADY. why did they mess it up? or fleetcontrol. they could just import the logic and improve it. instead it is generally still nonexistant. there are a few things added but its nothing yet. or the mouse control. we had both the fixed mouse and the mousefollow in AP (finally after 7 years of improving X3) and what they did? they simply dismissed one. docking: one of the best thing was for me, and as i read the forums here and on steam for a lot of others too the manual "looking" docking. instead of improving it and adding choices they simply dismissed the logic. its all about implementing the logic they have already had.
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:
Luanda wrote: haha. i didnt ask how can you use 3 different traders, i said thats all you can do in XR... but nice rant btw :)
Snafu quoted a question asking if 3 traders can be used. If you meant that as a statement you should try and write less ambiguously to avoid people laughing at you.

If you're only using 3 different traders for use with personal trading, CVs and stations that's your choice, just as it would be the choice of other to potentially consider that unnecessarily self-limiting and inefficient.
yes because manually managing a fleet of 20 different traders for different functions is fun playable and first of all possible... what you simply cant seem to understand there are no 20 different ways of trading in xr so there is no point having 20 different trader ships. while in x3 there was. its not self limiting, its the game that limits the choices

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Post by Lander1979 » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 13:51

Luanda, please don't quote me without actually reading anything I have written. The argument you are trying to postulate has no groundings in reality.
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Post by Luanda » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 13:54

Lander1979 wrote:Luanda, please don't quote me without actually reading anything I have written. The argument you are trying to postulate has no groundings in reality.
yes it does,. you might just dont understand it

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 14:02

Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..

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Post by Luanda » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 14:07

Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..
you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 14:17

Luanda wrote:yes because manually managing a fleet of 20 different traders for different functions is fun playable and first of all possible... what you simply cant seem to understand there are no 20 different ways of trading in xr so there is no point having 20 different trader ships. while in x3 there was. its not self limiting, its the game that limits the choices
Entirely the other way round for me.

In X3 more often then not used to settle on a single TS which I then I used for pretty much everything - Caimen Hauler was a fairly common choice (reasonably fast, average cargo capacity) unless I was at war with the Split, in which case my usual backup choice was Demeter Hauler (slightly slower, slightly higher capacity, though in practice the differences are negligible).

Find in XR I make use of a much wider variety of freighters - the magnitude of the differences between freighters is greater, so there's more incentive for me to think carefully about which specific ship is best suited to the task at hand.

Beginning to get the feeling that you may not have played XR for quite a long time & not be aware of how much things have changed since the early days, when the Rahanas line of freighters were used pretty much everywhere - game has changed a great deal since then.

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Post by wwdragon » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 16:23

Vim Razz wrote:
wwdragon wrote:There is not even any credits exchanged between npc stations, to my knowledge. :(
umm... when has this happened in any previous game?
Not a relevant question, because pervious games did not claim they had a 'real, living economy'.
XRebirth makes that claim.

I don't agree with the other points, however this game treats the player different then npcs.
That and no money exchange means it is not immersive.
There's no real ability to take over another suppliers job by attrition; you can only take over by building a station closer.

Do you remember the storyline mission over on the right side ofthe map in X3:TC that you do to sabatoge a competitors ships, so that the guy who is helping you find the boron scientists, will actually cooperate?
That's what it should feel like when I destroy a competitors ships in X:R.
However, because I know they have lost only time, it does not. :(
Editing posts since long before I remember.

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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 18:48

Luanda wrote:
Sparky Sparkycorp wrote:Regarding your comment about 20 ships, I don't recognise that as a particularly important number but the reality is also that there wasn't much point in using many X3 era trading ships either once optimal ones were identified. Other than for faction-specific role play reasons and you can do that for all four factions in Rebirth anyway..
you just didnt read my original post about it or just ignored it... there were many logical reasons to use many different type or size trader ships in X3... get back a few posts...
No, you listed 7 trading ships from M3 and TS hulls, which is only ~14% of the available TS hulls in AP. You did not justify needing 20 and even if you did, that's less than half the number of TS hulls. The point is that people fave given examples of how they use differenttrade ships for different purposes and even if they don't use all of them, people didn't really use all of them in previous games either. I'm sure we'll get more ships as time goes on just as we did in the past.

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Post by Vim Razz » Sat, 21. Mar 15, 20:59

NodusCursorius wrote:
Vim Razz wrote:Most of the things you're mentioning in this post have never really featured in X3's core game...
I stated, specifically, the examples included in core X3 gameplay without even dipping into mods or bonus packs. "never really" doesn't seem like you want to make a definitive disagreement with that, either.
eh... The "not really" was deliberate given the X-U series' confusing -- and often symbiotic -- historical relationship with mods.

My understanding is that the Mk3 trader system you've drawn a lot of arguments from was a mod adopted into the X3 distribution package before the "bonus pack" system was a thing. I have a hard time calling that a core feature, personally.

We don't have anything approaching the ST/UT script's level of sophistication in Rebirth yet, and getting there isn't a trivial thing with Rebirth's more complicated navigation environment and trade system.
wwdragon wrote:Not a relevant question, because pervious games did not claim they had a 'real, living economy'.
XRebirth makes that claim.
I see your point, though the only place I see "real, living economies" in practice is where you have real, living economic players. Eve's player economy is by far the best example that I'm familiar with, but even Eve has to pull cash out of the NPC rabbit-hole in order to stay afloat. (All money in Eve is generated by the mission system.)

So I have a hard time regarding it as a fundamental problem.


I do have mixed feelings about Rebirth's economy in general (and find the lack of direct player agency in some key areas to be the biggest problem), but I don't consider it "worse" than prior games at it's core. Rebirth's system ~does~ solve some rather significant exploits in earlier games economic systems that I've been quite happy to move away from. (pricing vice/tech wares at 1cr below average for infinite product dumping, anyone? I'm done with that, thanks.)

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