Firelance tactics 8)

Ryuujin · Post by **Ryuujin** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 18:20

I finally got Firelance to work without CtDing (Yay!) - but I've just reached the point where the Khaak show up... well actually I delayed it a bit by leaving my ship in Presidents End on SETA mode while I took a break.

But point being I watched a Buster and a Centaur duke it out with a Khaak super cluster, and the centaur took 90% hull damage, and only JUST survived.

Anyway my point is basiclly, has anyone got enough game time on Firelance yet to share their defence and combat techniques? like:
- Squadron configuration, how many ships of a given type forms your "wing" and how often do they get whupped?
- Tips and tactics... any?
- Sector defence, how many, and what type of ship? (Can a lone M6 still hold a sector, or does a wing of 3 or 4 M3's or 5 or 6 M4's do it more reliably?)
- Anything else?

I tried to use laser towers, but my lone LT got pwned by a single pirate ship OOS, so they're still "meh" unless you tank them up.

esd · Post by **esd** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 18:21

Over she goes!

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 18:24

Once I get back from 'running around' today(which consists of going to music lessons and general errands) I'm going to see about loading up the latest version of Firelance and playing... I'm going to see about going to route of giving myself 900k, buy a fleet of Argon fighters, and start killing stuff.

Serial Kicked · Post by **Serial Kicked** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 18:38

About lasertowers, yep OOS it's still crap, but in sector they are extremly deadly.

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 20:45

Ryuujin - my suggestion would be to wait for the next rendition of the mod which might be out by the end of the week. That way you'll have much more firepower at your disposal allowing for some wilder tactics. Right now, the only thing I can suggest is a mixed 5x5x5 M3/M4/M5 and an M6 frontman that can fire a HEPT blast at the cluster in an attempt to kill their shielding. HEPTs are at their finest when dealing with ships in tight formation.

As for sector defence, I usually pick about two ships of each fighter class per station, drag them out the front door and tell them to cover the lone M6 patrolling the sector. My best defense layout was a Hydra patrolling Queen's Space, covered by about 12 Octopi, 12 Makos and 12 Barracudas. It could clean up about two clusters without so much as a dent.

Serial Kicked wrote:About lasertowers, yep OOS it's still crap, but in sector they are extremly deadly.

We're working on it, though when it comes to OOS dealings it's not an easy thing to fix anything.

SteelRush · Post by **SteelRush** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 20:46

Serial Kicked wrote:About lasertowers, yep OOS it's still crap, but in sector they are extremly deadly.

I'll see if I can do anything about the Lasertowers. The way the game handles OOS combat is just a dice roll game, and it doesn't take any special properties of the weapon into account.

Also the fact that LTs can't move, in OOS, that's a huge penalty. It increases the chance of the movable opponent to hit the target greatly according to the OOS formula.

But for 2.0, I am going to see if there's a way to bend more rules and get them working more effectively.

BTW Ryuujin, how did you get your CTDs to stop?

Ryuujin · Post by **Ryuujin** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 22:13

CtD I just reinstalled Firelance.

I realise now there was a minor error in the installation, Originally I didn't install the bonus plugins (By accident rather than design), and then installed the plugins (Minus Gunnery Crews and Fusion Injection) AFTER installing firelance, it was only after I remember reading a snippet saying Firelance alters the way one of the bonus pack plugins behave.

I also started this game in Normal difficulty, campaign game, instead of Custom universe mode which I had been before.

Is there any way to cover your sectors when you're not already a multi-billionaire XD? - I bought 6 M3's, and split them into 2 wings, 1 in The Hole, and one in Presidents End (Where i kept losing fully equipped TS's, with advanced trade software).

I watched the President's end wing (Alpha Wing) OOS on the monitor...
Turn 1: Khaak split, instantly destroy Alpha Lead
Turn 2: Alpha wing take down 3 M5's, Alpha Wing Beta is badly damaged
Turn 3: Alpha Wing seem to concentrate fire and take out Khaak M3 instantly, Alpha Wing Beta is destroyed, remaining fighter in Alpha Wing is critically hit.
Turn 4: Contact lost, no remaining ships in sector.

I know, I know the khaak will present more of a challenge in the late game this way... but I can't afford anything that stands a remote chance of defending my stations

*rant end (I'll cope)*

holo_doctor · Post by **holo_doctor** » Tue, 27. Sep 05, 23:29

Lasertowers are easyer to fix OOS than people may think. YOU just ave te rebalance the laser/hull and Shield Values

Im done my own custom (and still tweeking) laser rebalancing to try and get some training for X3 new high speed lasers (this is judgeing from the teaser videos)

basicaly All IVe done is

1) up the laser value (energy level) of LT from 8000 to 15000
2) Increased the energy Drain just a little under 1:1 with energy value
3) Decesed Recharge rates % of the LT weapon 1:1 with energy increase
4) up there turing rate X3 and Range by X1.5
(can stilll outstafe them but its alot harder!)
5) 2X hull strength (50000 now)

Now they are rather scarey and it take a little more than a lone kM3 OOS to take em out (A Khaak cluster still aniilates them though as I also raised Kyon OOS values! but the LT still takes quite a few down with it)

Must admit though for a expecive fixed defence platform the LT was VERY nerfed hope we have better in X3. Either that alot cheper so they are cost effective or Ill probably do the same Mod!

SteelRush · Post by **SteelRush** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 02:00

holo_doctor wrote:Lasertowers are easyer to fix OOS than people may think. YOU just ave te rebalance the laser/hull and Shield Values

Im done my own custom (and still tweeking) laser rebalancing to try and get some training for X3 new high speed lasers (this is judgeing from the teaser videos)

basicaly All IVe done is

1) up the laser value (energy level) of LT from 8000 to 15000
2) Increased the energy Drain just a little under 1:1 with energy value
3) Decesed Recharge rates % of the LT weapon 1:1 with energy increase
4) up there turing rate X3 and Range by X1.5
(can stilll outstafe them but its alot harder!)
5) 2X hull strength (50000 now)

Now they are rather scarey and it take a little more than a lone kM3 OOS to take em out (A Khaak cluster still aniilates them though as I also raised Kyon OOS values! but the LT still takes quite a few down with it)

Must admit though for a expecive fixed defence platform the LT was VERY nerfed hope we have better in X3. Either that alot cheper so they are cost effective or Ill probably do the same Mod!

I already got them tweaked for Firelance. I had to do a bit more than that, because everything is pumped up.

3 x 125MW shields now. A lone ship no longer poses a threat to them. It takes alot to dislodge them OOS now. I tripled the price to compensate.

holo_doctor · Post by **holo_doctor** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 09:58

3 X 125MW Shields on a LT!!!!

I can beleave in putting 1 X 125 in them or 3 X 25 but thats far to much.

FFS that would make nyanas hideout almost imposible in anything less than an M6! not to mantion the local pirate base a MONSTOR to be able t take on even in an M2.

Im all for beefing up LT but thats just way overboard. You still got to be able to destroy them as a player while making them a resonable thret. They be like statonary M6s on there own like that. (hydra eqivilent).

Then again I have no idea what other weapons changes you have made in your mode but in mine its still a hairy task to take out an LT but its doable!

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 12:04

It's a weapon of mass destruction packed in a single lasertower shell, of course it'll be heavily protected.

Besides, by the time you reach Nyana's Hideout you should already have a fleet, otherwise you're just slacking.

The point of Firelance is to give the players a challenge, and that means no one-ship armies.

Serial Kicked · Post by **Serial Kicked** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 13:00

Yup, i know balancing LT in both OOS and InSector is a pain. Not sure it's even totally possible.

I also think that 3x125MW shielding is too much, except if you increase the price a lot. Instead maybe you should try to increase hull strength by x10. It's the method used for many ships in Terradine and usually OOS battle are more realistic.

btw does someone know the exact method used in OOS calculations ?

Stealth · Post by **Stealth** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 14:56

Quite literally, dice rolls. The OOS combat system doesn't rely on real weapon statistics and properties and instead just rolls a to-hit check. And if the target's immovable, like LTs unfortunately are, they'll get hit a lot.

Galaxy613 · Post by **Galaxy613** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 15:38

Stealth wrote:Quite literally, dice rolls. The OOS combat system doesn't rely on real weapon statistics and properties and instead just rolls a to-hit check. And if the target's immovable, like LTs unfortunately are, they'll get hit a lot.

And thus get killed quicker thus SteelRush's change of shields. I also agree that the cost for Lasertowers should go up, other then tha I think it's a great idea.

SteelRush · Post by **SteelRush** » Wed, 28. Sep 05, 17:24

Upon further testing, I have found that it was the turning rate that needed to be beefed up for OOS improvement. 5 Lasertowers with 1 x 125MW shields were able to take down a Khaak supercluster without any losses. 1 lasertower was heavily damaged, 3 more had 20% hull gone, and 1 was untouched.

Also, I did some single M3 vs 1 lasertower tests. The Lasertower's shields went down to about 20% at the lowest, but it always came out on top.

Thanks for the feedback guys. Thanks for reminding me about the turning rate holo, because I didn't even think to check that again.

New beta will be out soon with those fixes. To bring OOS and in-sector combat closer together, the range of the lasertowers was reduced to 5km. M2s and M6s can now safely shoot them outside their range.

holo_doctor · Post by **holo_doctor** » Thu, 29. Sep 05, 10:17

beefing up energy values and lowering energy usage are the 2 main partss of OOS when making laser towers efective.

The other is there defencive 1X125 should be more than suffecent but 3X25MW has a slightly faster rechage rate as the more sheilds slots you have the higher recharge rate.

There hull values are rather low only 25000 (more than most M3 class ships though) so once there shields go they are toast rather quickly)

Im thinking Turn rates are taking slightly into account OOS in the hit miss area and since lasertowers turning rates are horid it looses out there but uppong the OOS energy values more than makes up for it cuse when they hit they make a devistating blow (M2,6 and 1 are same in this respect) but upping turn rates also makes them alot better in sector as well as they can aquire smaller targets like M4s and M5s

LT are resonably priced though with minore increase but a major one like your talking about I would definatly see the need for a price increase

SteelRush · Post by **SteelRush** » Thu, 29. Sep 05, 19:05

holo_doctor wrote:beefing up energy values and lowering energy usage are the 2 main partss of OOS when making laser towers efective.

The other is there defencive 1X125 should be more than suffecent but 3X25MW has a slightly faster rechage rate as the more sheilds slots you have the higher recharge rate.

There hull values are rather low only 25000 (more than most M3 class ships though) so once there shields go they are toast rather quickly)

Im thinking Turn rates are taking slightly into account OOS in the hit miss area and since lasertowers turning rates are horid it looses out there but uppong the OOS energy values more than makes up for it cuse when they hit they make a devistating blow (M2,6 and 1 are same in this respect) but upping turn rates also makes them alot better in sector as well as they can aquire smaller targets like M4s and M5s

LT are resonably priced though with minore increase but a major one like your talking about I would definatly see the need for a price increase

Turning rates are what made the difference for me OOS. Energy only comes into play if you are feeding the LT less energy than it needs, ie 1:1 recharge/fire rate.

The turning rate helped more than the extra shielding did in my tests. Lasertowers are best kept in groups, as single LTs are suceptible to fighter groups. 5 lasertowers are now capable of handling a Khaak supercluster, so I am happy. I'd put 10 up to be sure though!

holo_doctor · Post by **holo_doctor** » Thu, 29. Sep 05, 23:28

the energy level OOS determins the damage delt per attack! so you up the evergy level form 8000 to 15000 and uses 500 energy and recarges say 400 in 1 turn so you get this

1st attack the LT would deal 15000 damage loose 500 energy
(damage can be ditributed accross mutiple targets if the target is destroyed)
2nd attack regains another 400 enegy and then does another 14900 damage

You see how that works. its the same for all ships so M2 deals around 144000 damge in one blow on the first attack!

the 3 main things that matter OOS are laservalue (energy level) / Hull and Shields. LT only get a pitiful 8000 / 25000 / 25000 comared to a KM3 which is 14000 / 6000 / 75000

now by defult Km3 will win becuse it would take about 12 shots from the LT compared to the 4 or 5 from the KM3.

now we rebalance the LT to 15000 / 25000 / 125000

It will now take a KM3 11 shots but the LT only takes 6

THese figures assuming every shot gets full power if the energy drain is not to high comared to the recharge rate then this can complicate things. This also not taking into account sheild recharge as well as every turn each ship regains a certin amount of shileding depening on the number of generators and there power.

Alot of people think OOS combat is simple calcs it a little wore triky to work out when you tweeking stuff. MMM I might make a spread sheet to do this so I can observ how 1 on 1 tweeks affect each other!

SteelRush · Post by **SteelRush** » Fri, 30. Sep 05, 00:48

holo_doctor wrote:the energy level OOS determins the damage delt per attack! so you up the evergy level form 8000 to 15000 and uses 500 energy and recarges say 400 in 1 turn so you get this

1st attack the LT would deal 15000 damage loose 500 energy
(damage can be ditributed accross mutiple targets if the target is destroyed)
2nd attack regains another 400 enegy and then does another 14900 damage

You see how that works. its the same for all ships so M2 deals around 144000 damge in one blow on the first attack!

the 3 main things that matter OOS are laservalue (energy level) / Hull and Shields. LT only get a pitiful 8000 / 25000 / 25000 comared to a KM3 which is 14000 / 6000 / 75000

now by defult Km3 will win becuse it would take about 12 shots from the LT compared to the 4 or 5 from the KM3.

now we rebalance the LT to 15000 / 25000 / 125000

It will now take a KM3 11 shots but the LT only takes 6

THese figures assuming every shot gets full power if the energy drain is not to high comared to the recharge rate then this can complicate things. This also not taking into account sheild recharge as well as every turn each ship regains a certin amount of shileding depening on the number of generators and there power.

Alot of people think OOS combat is simple calcs it a little wore triky to work out when you tweeking stuff. MMM I might make a spread sheet to do this so I can observ how 1 on 1 tweeks affect each other!

I have tested the laser energy levels, and I have set them as high as 1,000,000 energy with no effect OOS. All I am saying, is laser energy just affects how many shots it can fire. Not the actual power of the bullet in OOS combat.

Now increase the actual power of the bullet, and you'll see a difference OOS.

Below is my OOS test map. You can modify it with whatever ship you want. There is a Khaak lasertower, and currently an Argon Titan on the map in Herron's Nebula. There is also an advanced satellite in the sector so you can watch it OOS. You start in Argon Prime of course.

http://www.xscripting.com/files/OOS.xml

I've set the laser energy as low as 50, but if the power of the bullet itself is high enough, it will destroy even a Titan! The OOS theory of laser energy level affecting how much damage is made is untrue. Please, don't just accept my word for it, take the map and test for yourself.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Firelance tactics 8)

Firelance tactics 8)