Adventures in wing command

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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DrSuperEvil
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Post by DrSuperEvil » Sun, 2. Sep 18, 10:56

Tornado Missiles may be dumbfire but against large slow targets they are unlikely to miss and deal up to 400k damage while the factories make a lot of them.

I prefer Thunderbolt Missiles over Tempest Missiles due to factories making more per hour.

JJRSC
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Post by JJRSC » Mon, 3. Sep 18, 03:30

"So I launch them at the first cop and one of them promptly pastes into the side of the Cerberus."

Reminds me of when one of my STs was in trouble, so I jumped one of my remote "RRF" Griffons into the sector to help out. Once it jumped in, it detected pirate ships right there and the Griffon's nine fighters - set to protect the Griffon - launched automatically. And seven of them smashed into the inside of the Gate and blew up. :evil:

Good times. :evil:

jlehtone
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Post by jlehtone » Tue, 11. Sep 18, 17:56

Timsup2nothin wrote:I took a xenon patrol mission ...
Which spawns multiple waves of enemies (less, if you kill them quickly).


Convoy Escorts spawn waves too.
Wiki https://www.x3wiki.com/index.php/Escort_Convoy says:
[enemy:] anything from M5s to Capital-class ships, depending on combat rank

Do these missions OOS and you should have an easier time getting the convoy to actually move through the gate.
Took some back in early X3TC and found them indeed futile. Now I've administered couple Dual Convoys in X3AP. Strictly OOS.

Commanding wings OOS is different: no collisions to worry about. Worst threats have been the M5, for they easily phase through your forces and can oneshot the Freighters.


The wiki says: "depending on combat rank". I saw waves starting from M5/M4/M3 to M6 Osprey with fighters.

M6. That is no Capital.

I did allocate a M1 Raptor for each Convoy. If player's fleet had a say, M1 would not spawn M6, would it?

My Combat Rank is Xtreme. If that does not spawn Capitals, then what does?

I sat in my M6. A ship that never saw the Convoys that I had pledged to protect. Would a Cerberus or Griffon invoke something thicker than Pirate Osprey?

As is, 9 fighters from Griffon should cover a Convoy, given appropriate instructions. A (limited) learning opportunity.


Has anyone else bothered to tally the enemy strength on Convoy Escort?
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Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 11. Sep 18, 18:24

A very vague memory of mine that might (or might not) be correct/relevant: I think I recall somebody saying that the mission enemy wave strengths might be based on a points system derived from mission difficulty, player ranking and player ship strength. The RNG could decide to spend the available enemy wave points total on one or a few capitals, on lots of small ships, or on any combination of enemy ships in between that met the allocated points. Of course that could all be nonsense though.
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DrSuperEvil
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Post by DrSuperEvil » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 02:04

That is a correct summary of the OBS system. Not sure if different fight type missions have caps on the classes of foe able to spawn though.

SirNukes
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Post by SirNukes » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 06:38

jlehtone wrote:Has anyone else bothered to tally the enemy strength on Convoy Escort?
Dual convoy missions pick enemy ships in the "U.183 Raiding Parties" script. That caps out at M6, and selection is based purely on player rank. Mission difficulty is used to give enemies more engine tunings and spawn more enemies per wave.

ConorC
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Post by ConorC » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 11:28

The wing system in X3TC always annoyed me. I always found it very fiddly and the issues of ships crashing into their mothership, and themselves always drove me nuts.

But I love carriers spewing out large amounts of fighters to go pop some fools. So in my current game while I don't yet have a dedicated large carrier, I have an Elephant and two TMs, all running the CODEA script by Lucike. I LOVE this script. it's in depth, it's not just a fire and forget script, although it's very good at that, you do have to manage it but it works really well and my enthusiastic flyboys have never faceplanted themselves into the side of their own ship, or their buddies' ships.

Early on in my current game I got myself a cheap TM, kitted it out with four captured M3s and set up the CODEA script to run the M3s while I flew the TM, I think a Zephyrus, and I pretty much owned all combat missions. I only ever lost a couple of fighters, and that was to quite a large Xenon group.

jlehtone
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Post by jlehtone » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 22:34

SirNukes wrote:Mission difficulty is used to give enemies more engine tunings and spawn more enemies per wave.
Then you should guess the followup question:

Old hands at the bar keep repeating the tale how they ferried a Boron RIP (Really Irritating Passenger) and encountered overtuned Pirates.

Is there any chance that there are still Raiders in the Sky who would ignore speed regulations, yet have enough common sense to bail? I.e. could an Impossible Convoy face capturable and overtuned ships?

Early in the game such opportunity could make Escort missions somewhat rewarding.


Wing(s) can be left to mop up the Muggles.
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SirNukes
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Post by SirNukes » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 23:55

jlehtone wrote:Is there any chance that there are still Raiders in the Sky who would ignore speed regulations, yet have enough common sense to bail? I.e. could an Impossible Convoy face capturable and overtuned ships?
Here's a quick copy/paste:

Code: Select all

<add_equipment object="{param@Cue}.Temp Ship">
  <ware typename="SS_WARE_TECH213" min="( ({object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.maxcount@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}-{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.count@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}) * (1+{param@Difficulty}) ) /12" max="{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.maxcount@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}-{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.count@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}"/>
</add_equipment>
So, assuming 'impossible' has a value of 6, then this shouldn't be able to over-tune ships for convoy missions.

Some other mission types can use different tuning logic. I seem to recall the Follow Ship missions making ovetuned ships, but checking the code doesn't back that up. Perhaps some of the overtunings were patched out at some point.

Anyway, if you do find an overtuned ship and go to capture it, the KC DowngradeTakeOver() function runs upon pilot ejection to strip a lot of the ship's gear. For various wares (other than lasers/shields/missiles), the ship will keep a double randomized amount of a ware, (random(random(ware_count +1) +1)), around 25% on average. For a slightly overtuned ship, there is only a small chance that it would keep enough tunings to stay overtuned after capture.

vr01
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Post by vr01 » Sun, 23. Sep 18, 06:37

I did something similar in my TC game many years ago that it turn was prompted by a post at the time. (Important to note this was TC as it shaped some of the decisions that may be less of an issue with AP.)

Unfortunately I don't have access to my gaming PC at the moment so I can't confirm the actual composition.


Colossus with a full complement of 60 ships split into 6 groups of 10.

Attack groups:
3 groups of heavy fighters armed with HEPT's, long range missiles and max shields (either Eclipse or Falcon with 200MJ shields). Missile % was very high.

Each group consisted of the flight leader and remaining 9 set to "Attack target of..." the flight leader.

Protection groups:
3 groups of faster fighters armed with PRG's(?) and medium range missiles. Not sure what ship I used but it also had decent shielding. Missile % was probably 50%.

Each ship in the group was individually set to "Defend ???" the corresponding ship in the attack group.

Missile range and % was important so that the ships didn't wait until they were too close to fire their missiles and have them blow up in their faces. I also took the time to set the formation for each ship to reduce the risk of running into or firing on each other. Missile resupply was set for each ship and the carrier (for when it berthed at home port which was the PHQ).


End result?
Although a pain in the backside to setup, the outcome was I could effectively control 60 ships by issuing commands to the 3 attack group flight leaders and not have to worry about defending the ships in the attack group as the protection groups took care of it. On one occasion I just made attack groups 2 and 3 attack the target of 1. Controlling 60 ships based on the command of 1...

The couple of times I tried to use them they were very effective and I'm pretty sure I didn't lose a ship. The capital ships didn't know which way to fire when they were overwhelmed by that many targets. Chewed through lots of missiles but I think that helped make the exercise successful.

Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 23. Sep 18, 11:54

@ vr01: Yes that's a very similar approach to that of my TC days: here and here and onwards. I never did really get into formal wings rather than groups.
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vr01
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Post by vr01 » Wed, 26. Sep 18, 23:21

Now that I'm back home I've been able to fire up the gaming PC and have a look at the ship configuration.

Attack groups were Eclipse with 200MJ shields.
Protection groups were Nova Raiders.

The other important reason for these ships which I had forgotten about is that they are armed with EBG's. Both ships have a split loadout of EBG and PRG in the front guns with PAC or PRG in the rear turret for missile defence. As this was all being used IS, arming with EBG meant that these ships never ran out of laser energy for the PRG's when on attack runs. Maximising damage without running out of energy at a critical point.

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Black_hole_suN
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Black_hole_suN » Sat, 29. Sep 18, 01:11

You should try using the "Launch fighters attack" command to launch your ships. This command makes launching fighters faster than any other alternative methods.

I find carriers that launch fighters on one side (i.e Woden) works better than carriers that launch fighters in different directions (i.e Odin) because fighters dont need to maneuver much to get into its formation.

Speaking of formations, use X or Dragon because they keep the fighters closer together. I find wings in these formation more effective at the initial strike than wings in Delta or Line formation.

I always use Nova Raiders as my main carrier fighter because its fast, cheap, and easily equipped with essential softwares.
- EBC front guns
- PAC back turret
- Silkworm Missile

Lastly, use Bounce. Its a mod but if you want to master fleet combat in a vanilla-ish game this mod is just the best.

Triaxx2
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Triaxx2 » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 18:24

I find that wings and carriers don't work so well. But then I also don't use the normal wing command method. I have one 'Wing Leader' which is in a wing group. Then the rest of the 'wing' is ordered to protect that leader or attack their target. Makes controlling them much, much easier.
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jlehtone
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 20:39

Black_hole_suN wrote:
Sat, 29. Sep 18, 01:11
You should try using the "Launch fighters attack" command to launch your ships. This command makes launching fighters faster than any other alternative methods.
And probably erases the manually crafted "groups" that the others have described.
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