Clarity's End

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radcapricorn
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Clarity's End

Post by radcapricorn » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 16:36

Reading up on the past FAQs, whishlists, dream-farm threads and viability battles, I can't help but add one more.

EgoSoft, please, if in X4 there'd be even only one graphical option, let it be the one letting to turn off the damn star dust particle velocity visual aids. Because they are indeed the end of clarity. I'd like to enjoy the view without having to filter out the noise.

linolafett
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Post by linolafett » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 17:37

No idea if we will add a game option for this, we dont want to end up with 10k game options, the list is already very, very long.

But! It is super easy to mod this stardust, same as in rebirth. Its one xml where the dust is defined. Change the values there and you have your clear view.
01010111 01101000 01100101 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110010 01100101 01101100 01100101 01100001 01110011 01100101 00111111

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radcapricorn
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Post by radcapricorn » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 18:05

Yeah, "super easy" to mod implies having the know-how, i.e. where to look and what to change. And then a DLC comes (cough... Home of Light... cough...) where the ID is different, or in different case, and you have to go hunting again to figure out what to change.

"Super easy" is a toggle. Everything else is arguably not. I mean, come on, that dust has been in there since day one. Yes, *.dat scouring days of games past are gone now, but still, even ye olde Frontier, supposedly an X inspiration, had it as a toggle. And unlike actual gameplay features that do multiply maintenance cost by two with every control flow fork, this one doesn't, or at least, shouldn't.

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Post by Skeeter » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 21:36

I think egosoft relies too much on mods. Not everyone wants to use mods or learn to make mods.
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thesus1
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Post by thesus1 » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 23:21

radcapricorn wrote:Yeah, "super easy" to mod implies having the know-how, i.e. where to look and what to change. And then a DLC comes (cough... Home of Light... cough...) where the ID is different, or in different case, and you have to go hunting again to figure out what to change.

"Super easy" is a toggle.
They can't make a game just for you. Imagine if everyone ask one feature/settings like you. The result will be ridiculous.

Players : Like all others games in development, Egosoft can't make compromise or options for every aspect of the game you wants. You need to live with it.

radcapricorn
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Post by radcapricorn » Thu, 7. Jun 18, 23:35

I sincerely suggest you thoroughly reread the first three posts in this thread, thesus1, then take your attitude and stick it into the actual ridiculous wishlist threads that were sitting here for ages.

Just to make it easy for you: this is something that existed in all X games, and was modded in all games where modding was possible. It's not a new "feature" or "setting".

Actual mods to remove the crap from the screen are way heavier than a trivial "don't spawn this mess" code path. So please, be my guest and visit the "Battle Bridge" or some other nonsense thread, I'm awarding you the Captain Obvious medal and the authority to preach those opinions elsewhere.

linolafett
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Post by linolafett » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 09:59

Please refrain from personal attacks, thanks.

You can always ask in the forums, how to get to the result you like.

In the stardust case:
There is a "stardust.xml" file.
In there is a default at the very top. Change there the amount to "0".
Then comment out or delete all entries below.
Now you have successfully removed all stardust from the entire game.
01010111 01101000 01100101 01101110 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01110010 01100101 01101100 01100101 01100001 01110011 01100101 00111111

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Cabrelbeuk
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Post by Cabrelbeuk » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 10:44

linolafett wrote:No idea if we will add a game option for this, we dont want to end up with 10k game options, the list is already very, very long.

But! It is super easy to mod this stardust, same as in rebirth. Its one xml where the dust is defined. Change the values there and you have your clear view.
I understand your point, but a lot of games offer different level of personalization of details, giving access to lot of option when going to detailed ones. I think this is more a problem of interface design ( :twisted: ), but lot of games handle this well.

Typically Project Cars 2 offers TONS of options, but this is still very clear and easy to access (Project Cars 2, not the first one).

I do agree that you have to settle some limits in order to avoid bottomless list of options. However for some assets that are so commonly quoted that a quite fair amount of people use mod to change it, I guess it worth to put it directly in the 'Directly changeable asset' box. That's something easy to track (just count download of the mods).

Please note for the last paragraph i am not specifically talking about the particles effect . I haven't count how much time the concerned mod has been downloaded neither i counted the number of concerned mods existing currently.
Sorry for my english :roll:

radcapricorn
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Post by radcapricorn » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 15:40

Oh, if somehow my award may be interpreted as a personal attack, I sincerely apologize to thesus1 and linolafett.
linolafett wrote:You can always ask in the forums, how to get to the result you like.
Meaning that even if I myself can't figure it out, someone else might do the work, or if a developer notices a question and has time and knowledge to spare, they might or might not indulge.

I already know how to mod it out for Rebirth, linolafett. My point is, it's inconsistent, i.e. the process has to be repeated with DLCs. Also, it adds extra XML files for the game to load and process, to effectively change a single bit. Besides, this is for Rebirth. So far, we have no idea how it would be for X4. Were it not this ridiculous, I wouldn't be talking about making it an in-game option.

In any case, this thread is not about modding it out, it is about removing a need to do so.

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Post by UniTrader » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 18:06

not sure why you think its ridiculous... if taking a bit foresight you dont need to redo this for any dlc or other mod for that matter.. it boils down to multiple repititions of this:

Code: Select all

<replace sel=(//configuration[not(@amount = '0')]/@amount)[1]">0</replace>
copy as often as needed.. should also account for DLCs and other mods if you have many surplus replaces... just make sure it loads after all other extensions changing/supplementing the stardust file for example by starting the mod id/name with zzzz
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Tamina
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Post by Tamina » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 18:25

This seems like an easy visual-only toogle on/off setting to me with no impact on the game logic or anything else.
UniTrader wrote:

Code: Select all

<replace sel=(//configuration[not(@amount = '0')]/@amount)[1]">0</replace>
In all honesty this looks like a random list of characters to me.
Most people are not able to look in the options menu by themselfs, what makes you think makes them able to click on a subscribe button in Steam?

Code: Select all

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Ketraar
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Post by Ketraar » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 19:01

Tamina wrote:This seems like an easy visual-only toogle on/off setting to me with no impact on the game logic or anything else.
But it still requires a dev to spend time implementing it, I'm sure it does not "just" appears in the UI by itself.

Why trivialize a devs time to implement a "personal" request and at the same time make it out to be complicated to mod? Once the game comes out, make that request to the community and I'm pretty sure it will get sorted asap.

MFG

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Post by MegaJohnny » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 19:12

If most people don't look through their settings menu, are they really that bothered by the stardust that a new setting is needed?

Anyway, I'm with UT and Lino. "Super easy" is very appropriate to describe modding the stardust.

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Post by Tamina » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 19:18

Ketraar wrote:Why trivialize a devs time to implement a "personal" request and at the same time make it out to be complicated to mod?
Nobody is trivializing anything here, Ketraar.

Lino just said he doesn't know if this will be an option or not but if all fails you can still mod it for sure. This is not a "no" or "not possible" but a friendly calm statement.
And there is no harm in stating wishes, either.

I am neither for nor against it and I am happily going to subscribe to this mod if available.
Just saying I can't imagine it being much more difficult for a programmer than this:

Code: Select all

options_menu.add( new Toggle_Button( "Enable Stardust" ) ) {
    void action(boolean toggled) {
        render_stardust = toogled;
    }
}
against learning xml, xls, and X4 modding in general.

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radcapricorn
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Post by radcapricorn » Fri, 8. Jun 18, 19:47

UniTrader wrote:not sure why you think its ridiculous...
Whether or not to spawn stardust is a flag, one bit of memory. One eighth of a byte. Now, I don't know what's going on in Ego's codebase, for all I know it may be buried in a megabyte-sized god-class, but even then, it's still all there is to it. So why is it ridiculous?..
if taking a bit foresight you dont need to redo this for any dlc or other mod for that matter.. it boils down to multiple repititions of this:

Code: Select all

<replace sel=(//configuration[not(@amount = '0')]/@amount)[1]">0</replace>
copy as often as needed.. should also account for DLCs and other mods if you have many surplus replaces... just make sure it loads after all other extensions changing/supplementing the stardust file for example by starting the mod id/name with zzzz
...learn the game's scripting language and substitution mechanics, take into account load order, force the game to load, parse and implement changes via this XML file, all to change one freaking bit? And you're asking what's so ridiculous? That XML file alone is thousands of times larger than what it's intended to change.

Let me make a comparison: the game has 3 tiers of shadow settings. Only one of them works reliably, that one being "off". The other two do result in shadows, ones that may or may not display correctly depending on where you are in the world and which direction you're looking. Someone had to spend precious time and brain to write two different shadow rendering code paths with accompanying shaders, and tie this into the game's options menu. That is actually something that requires care and maintenance, and it still doesn't work correctly. But whether or not a simple toggle could be implemented - "we don't know". Because reasons, most likely.

So please, Ketraar, this has nothing to do with "trivialization" of devs' time. They have their own priorities and targets, of course no one's going to bother with something that isn't considered valuable. All I'm asking is to consider making this an easy in-game option. Yet y'all storming in with this "easy to mod" point of view, which has zero to do with the actual issue, but effectively dismisses even the possibility of actual consideration by the devs.

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