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(X3AP/XRM) May I get a rundown on how Friendly Fire is calculated?
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HurlockHolmes





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 09:23    Post subject: (X3AP/XRM) May I get a rundown on how Friendly Fire is calculated? Reply with quote Print

I tried using search but all that comes up is a sea people venting about the system so I'm having a hard time finding any specifics, so a link or even just a copy pasted explanation of how friendly fire works would be greatly appreciated. It's very confusing for me at times, sometimes I can skim a station with PAC's while defending a station and they'll start chewing me out, but other times like just now to test the limits of the system with what I have currently, I just unloaded into a military station with a macro for about 5 minutes and had no warnings or rep drops.

And now I'm just confused, so if anybody knowledgeable on the specifics can educate me that'd be great.

I'm using XRM with some of the minor recommended mods and going through the list nothing that I would think would alter how NPC's react to accidental/friendly fire.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 09:31    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Because your test result seems way out of line with my own observations I'm going to question your test before I start wildly guessing about things. While XRM doesn't change NPC reaction, it may be that the particular station, if it is added, may not be plugged into the reaction system. Would you mind repeating your test, using a very ordinary station that is definitely connected to the normal response algorithm?


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HurlockHolmes





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 09:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sure thing, the first "test" was the mil station in Elena's fortune. I just flew a crossed the system to the Rimes Fact M Alpha, got an audio warning after about 4-5 seconds of continuous fire from my Blastclaw Prototype's 4 main PACs. I'm thinking that the mil station might not care due to me not being able to out damage the mil stations shield regen or something.

Anyway, if you have the numbers for how the system works or know where an explanation is that's all I'm after.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 15:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I don't know any numbers. My experience is, as you said, even just grazing them will get them complaining. I'd guess that your four or five seconds was the processing time to deliver the complaint and it would be basically the same whether you did the continuous fire or had just popped off a quick single shot and waited.

Interesting that the military station didn't respond when you shot at it. I never noticed that.

Anyway, more on the issue at hand. I can't put a number on just how much stray fire they will take before they get all excited and turn red, but as long as you have reasonable rep with their race they should accept an apology and turn back to blue. You will need to update friend/foe settings after and make sure to broadcast that so you don't have some crazed pilot out there thinking you are at war with whoever owns the station.


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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 18:11    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I note that XRM radically changes and rebalances weapons and bullets along with their damage effects and also changes some race reaction aspects. It may not be that your game's friend/foe aspects for 'friendly fire' are the same in all respects as in vanilla.

I can imagine that aggression aspects of the (respawning) 'special' NPC stations such as trading or equipment docks, outposts and shipyards etc *might* be differently handled to other one-time-use NPC production stations. Also the balance of local reaction to friendly fire on jumpgates and innocent ships etc probably should be considered too.


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HurlockHolmes





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 18:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Dang, well could I get specifics of how it works in vanilla then? And if not that, may I at least get these few questions answered?

Does the AI distinguish between friendly fire from your turrets trying to shoot down missles/hostile enemies?

Does the AI distinguish between friendly fire from any missiles you fire that are intended for the enemy due to missile pathing or even splash?

How does AI handle rep in the event of direct collisions?

These all stem from a huge battle I saw that had two argon titans + a ton of supporting forces vs a Pirate Brigandine + supporting forces vs a Xenon incursion with two Xenon battleships all at the same time, and the titans did more damage to their own factories than either the Pirates or Xenon. what struck me was the recklessness of the turrets on the Titans and having never been dedicated enough I've never experienced how the endgame is supposed to really work if the turrets on my on ships are firing with reckless abandon in a friendly sector, especially when some of the weapons have some seemingly colossal ranges. The farthest I've ever been along is getting an M7, but I'm trying to give the game a serious shake and I want to see how far I can take it for never having made a serious attempt at getting to the endgame. Maybe my fears about friendly fire are unwarranted...

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 19:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

A bullet or missile from any gun of any ship of yours is definitely "from you".
Nobody cares why it was shot. Exception: If the missile that does damage is from a ship that is no longer in the sector at the time of impact (either dead or has jumped out), then the missile has no owner and you will not be blamed.

Note: An unguided (dumb) rocket that was launched when the launcher had no target, is not an "incoming missile" as far as missile defences are considered. It is still "from you" when blame is assigned.

Each ship has rep counter for each faction and for the player (i.e. player is separate faction). I believe that damage from same faction is ignored. It would get ugly, if player's fleet would accidentally hit each other in a furball and turn hostile to player's fleet ...

Bizarre: I've seen repeatedly in X3AP War sector Jupiter how Terran and ATF fleets start to kill each other after they have dealt with invading Commonwealth forces.


You do lose reputation on collision. Multiple smaller clashes are enough to make the other party red. Vanilla has "Kill convoy" generic missions. They have TS ships. M6 can ram-kill a TS with one collision. Small rep hit. I presume that lethal collision with M2 will hurt significantly more.

On the other hand, the sector owner might like the death of their enemies. You gain reputation by killing. However, ramming TS targets did not yield any rep. Shooting to kill did. (X3AP, pleasing Yaki.)


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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 19:23    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

HurlockHolmes wrote:
Dang, well could I get specifics of how it works in vanilla then? And if not that, may I at least get these few questions answered?

Does the AI distinguish between friendly fire from your turrets trying to shoot down missles/hostile enemies?


Nope
HurlockHolmes wrote:


Does the AI distinguish between friendly fire from any missiles you fire that are intended for the enemy due to missile pathing or even splash?


Nope
HurlockHolmes wrote:


How does AI handle rep in the event of direct collisions?


As if you had attacked whatever you ran into
HurlockHolmes wrote:


These all stem from a huge battle I saw that had two argon titans + a ton of supporting forces vs a Pirate Brigandine + supporting forces vs a Xenon incursion with two Xenon battleships all at the same time, and the titans did more damage to their own factories than either the Pirates or Xenon. what struck me was the recklessness of the turrets on the Titans and having never been dedicated enough I've never experienced how the endgame is supposed to really work if the turrets on my on ships are firing with reckless abandon in a friendly sector, especially when some of the weapons have some seemingly colossal ranges. The farthest I've ever been along is getting an M7, but I'm trying to give the game a serious shake and I want to see how far I can take it for never having made a serious attempt at getting to the endgame. Maybe my fears about friendly fire are unwarranted...


No, they are warranted. Avoid doing battle in the thick of the developed area, especially in a capital ship loaded with AI controlled weapons. Tag the opponent and make them chase you out to the fringes of the sector before activating turrets.


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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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HurlockHolmes





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 20:00    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Awesome, thanks guys. I think I've got as much as I'm going to be able to get short of somebody entirely familiar with the code.

So in short, when I start using fleets and larger ship classes, bait enemies away as far as reasonably possible from friendlies to minimize the impact from AI/turret recklessness if I'm in a sector or situation where I may incur a rep hit to a faction I want to stay friendly with. And keep a hair trigger on the target and comms key in the event that friendly fire is almost entirely unavoidable due to circumstances of a mission some other various factors and a friendly goes red. But I should be fine so long as I ere on the side of caution and choose smarter fight locales.

Seriously, thanks to all. That'll be it then.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 20:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

You're welcome.

Oh, and hey, welcome to the forum and don't be a stranger!


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Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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DrSuperEvil





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 20:56    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The death of escorts and missile splash also counts so often NPCs will launch missiles at you which if intercepted can kill small escort ships of other factions setting the main ship into a vengeance fuelled frenzy.

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SirNukes





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PostPosted: Thu, 31. May 18, 21:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The related code is in the KC STATION.AttackedBy function. Since that is part of the obj code, XRM and most mods won't change it. I only have the disassembled version which takes excessive time to pick apart, but I did put a little effort in when thinking about modding the game to make friendly fire friendlier. The following are a few observations on the code:

That function appears to use a mixture of timers and shield checks to determine when to toss warnings or turn the station hostile. 99% and 98% are common shield thresholds in the section that sends warnings and such, so you should pack enough heat to knock station shields below that when doing tests. Time offsets use values like 10s, 20s, 30s, and 120s. Generic notoriety loss code appears to use an 80% shield threshold and 60s timer. There is also some stuff in there for tractor beams, and possibly a check for bullets that ignore shields. There is a loop in there that also checks owned ships (with <=99% shields).

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