Modding wishlist

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MegaJohnny
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Modding wishlist

Post by MegaJohnny » Wed, 23. May 18, 17:50

I realise not much can be said about modding capability until much closer to release. Nonetheless, how about some specific, actionable, (maybe) reasonable things we want to be available to modders? I have a few:
  • Mod-added hotkeys as in X3 - was a shame to lose this in XR!
  • Moddable map overlays/context menus - being able to modify the context menu (e.g. to add new entries) or the side-panel overlays would open up a ton of opportunities for new commands, info overlays and such.
  • Non-radial dialogue menus - Back in the X4 announcement, I faintly remember seeing the XR radial dialogue menu for a split second (haven't found a timestamp yet). On the off chance it's still there, could we pretty please change to a normal linear menu, without this nasty 6-entry limit? Mods in XR hit this limit very quickly indeed while trying to add new options for the player.
  • Mod-added message ticker messages - I love this setup with the message ticker, and especially in the fact you can click on them to take some context-sensitive action. I hope we can define custom messages in MD, with custom actions defined when you click on them?

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Re: Modding wishlist

Post by j.harshaw » Fri, 25. May 18, 20:07

MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Mod-added hotkeys as in X3 - was a shame to lose this in XR!
Doesn't look like it.
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Moddable map overlays/context menus - being able to modify the context menu (e.g. to add new entries) or the side-panel overlays would open up a ton of opportunities for new commands, info overlays and such.
Looks like it. And judging from your work, think you'll be able to pick it up fairly quickly. Looks like context menus and sidebar are going to be moddable. Full-on map overlays might be harder to impossible, depending on what you want to do. Think you'll have fun modding the new map.
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Non-radial dialogue menus - Back in the X4 announcement, I faintly remember seeing the XR radial dialogue menu for a split second (haven't found a timestamp yet). On the off chance it's still there, could we pretty please change to a normal linear menu, without this nasty 6-entry limit? Mods in XR hit this limit very quickly indeed while trying to add new options for the player.
Don't know for sure yet, but doesn't look like it.
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Mod-added message ticker messages - I love this setup with the message ticker, and especially in the fact you can click on them to take some context-sensitive action. I hope we can define custom messages in MD, with custom actions defined when you click on them?
Yes

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Re: Modding wishlist

Post by euclid » Fri, 25. May 18, 21:55

j.harshaw wrote:
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Mod-added hotkeys as in X3 - was a shame to lose this in XR!
Doesn't look like it..
That would be bad news, really bad.

I'm on hold with several XR mods (for example drone formations for attack & defense, docking/launching fighters at/from carriers, EMP blast for missile defense, to mention only a few) because there is no sound way to trigger them. Hotkeys assignment would solve the problem.

Cheers Euclid
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Post by Fleabum » Fri, 25. May 18, 22:34

No modded hotkeys? really?

Regards
Flea

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MegaJohnny
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Re: Modding wishlist

Post by MegaJohnny » Fri, 25. May 18, 23:07

Thanks for the response!
j.harshaw wrote:
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Mod-added hotkeys as in X3 - was a shame to lose this in XR!
Doesn't look like it.
That's sad to hear - as Euclid says, some XR mod ideas would have fit well as hotkeys, but are quite awkward to implement as main menu addons.
j.harshaw wrote:
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Moddable map overlays/context menus - being able to modify the context menu (e.g. to add new entries) or the side-panel overlays would open up a ton of opportunities for new commands, info overlays and such.
Looks like it. And judging from your work, think you'll be able to pick it up fairly quickly. Looks like context menus and sidebar are going to be moddable. Full-on map overlays might be harder to impossible, depending on what you want to do. Think you'll have fun modding the new map.
Great! I'll look forward to using it, if it does happen. And my bad about saying "overlay" - what I meant was the different lists on the right hand of the map menu, like property owned, object list, object info etc. Is this what you're referring to with "sidebar"?
j.harshaw wrote:
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Non-radial dialogue menus - Back in the X4 announcement, I faintly remember seeing the XR radial dialogue menu for a split second (haven't found a timestamp yet). On the off chance it's still there, could we pretty please change to a normal linear menu, without this nasty 6-entry limit? Mods in XR hit this limit very quickly indeed while trying to add new options for the player.
Don't know for sure yet, but doesn't look like it.
That's a shame, but given the dialogue menu isn't also the main menu this time (and side-panels are likely to be moddable) it's not a big problem anymore.
j.harshaw wrote:
MegaJohnny wrote:
  • Mod-added message ticker messages - I love this setup with the message ticker, and especially in the fact you can click on them to take some context-sensitive action. I hope we can define custom messages in MD, with custom actions defined when you click on them?
Yes
Also good to hear! Big boon for giving info to the player.

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Re: Modding wishlist

Post by j.harshaw » Fri, 25. May 18, 23:42

MegaJohnny wrote:what I meant was the different lists on the right hand of the map menu, like property owned, object list, object info etc. Is this what you're referring to with "sidebar"?
Yup. That, as well as the means to switch between them, is all in lua. Would be interesting to see what you make of it after the game's out.

Regarding defining hotkeys, do you mean defining keys to do completely custom actions? At least, i think that's what you mean since changing keys mapped to existing actions is quite easy to do, no need to mod anything to do that really. Having keys do something in certain menus other than what they do outside that menu is possible to an extent as well. Very mundane example of this is how arrow keys yaw and pitch your ship outside menus, but navigate menus when they're active. But defining completely new actions is done in code at the moment.

Could still change, but i wouldn't count on it. When deciding how to implement a feature or a system, we try to support modding as much as we can, partly because we're aware that mods can add considerable value to the game, partly (mostly, in my opinion) because we're aware that there's a great deal of satisfaction to be had from modding. However, if asked to choose between implementing a new feature, improving an existing feature, and rewriting an existing system to make it moddable, personally i'd choose either making something new or improving what we have depending on that particular feature's importance and the timetable; and if the decision is to implement something new, try to implement it in such a way that it can be modded. i want to play (and most likely mod!) this game too, and the game has to have priority.
Euclid wrote:drone formations for attack & defense, docking/launching fighters at/from carriers, EMP blast for missile defense
Hmm. These could all be done with signals and listeners in the AI (or MD) responding to those signals. Just thinking aloud, adding an input action to send a custom signal might be doable without spending too much time on it, although would have to figure out how you could define that signal and tie it to the action. Will give it a think, and mention it to people smarter than i.

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Post by Skeeter » Sat, 26. May 18, 00:32

My main gripe was that modding ships or stations was hard, well from what ive read that those that wanted to change ships from x ships to say star trek ships had a hard time. I hope some effort in some way is being done by egosoft this time compared to rebirth on helping those modders import models and textures andsetting up hardpoints etc so we might one day haae sme total conversions like al ships wares and stations and effects be from x4 to startrek or starwars or b5. Id so play x4 if i could fly th enterprise firing phasers and photons etc
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Post by j.harshaw » Sat, 26. May 18, 00:46

Unfortunately, i don't know much about how the assets are modeled and set up. That's more Lino's side of the office.

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Re: Modding wishlist

Post by MegaJohnny » Sat, 26. May 18, 02:34

j.harshaw wrote:Yup. That, as well as the means to switch between them, is all in lua. Would be interesting to see what you make of it after the game's out.
In that case, very cool. I had concerns the map UI might be inflexible due to being so much more sophisticated, so this is a big relief for me. I'll rein in my excitement, obviously, and keep in mind things can still change.
j.harshaw wrote:Regarding defining hotkeys, do you mean defining keys to do completely custom actions? At least, i think that's what you mean since changing keys mapped to existing actions is quite easy to do, no need to mod anything to do that really. Having keys do something in certain menus other than what they do outside that menu is possible to an extent as well. Very mundane example of this is how arrow keys yaw and pitch your ship outside menus, but navigate menus when they're active. But defining completely new actions is done in code at the moment.

Could still change, but i wouldn't count on it. When deciding how to implement a feature or a system, we try to support modding as much as we can, partly because we're aware that mods can add considerable value to the game, partly (mostly, in my opinion) because we're aware that there's a great deal of satisfaction to be had from modding. However, if asked to choose between implementing a new feature, improving an existing feature, and rewriting an existing system to make it moddable, personally i'd choose either making something new or improving what we have depending on that particular feature's importance and the timetable; and if the decision is to implement something new, try to implement it in such a way that it can be modded. i want to play (and most likely mod!) this game too, and the game has to have priority.
Euclid wrote:drone formations for attack & defense, docking/launching fighters at/from carriers, EMP blast for missile defense
Hmm. These could all be done with signals and listeners in the AI (or MD) responding to those signals. Just thinking aloud, adding an input action to send a custom signal might be doable without spending too much time on it, although would have to figure out how you could define that signal and tie it to the action. Will give it a think, and mention it to people smarter than i.
Yeah, a custom action is what myself and I think others are looking for. I never made any mods for X3, but I remember mod-added hotkeys had their own section in the keybindings menu, and each one would (I guess) run a script defined by the mod that added it.

The custom signal key, as you described, would be fantastic - as long as a cue can listen for some event, you have pretty much everything. Thanks for considering it :)

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Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Sat, 26. May 18, 13:16

Mod added Hotkeys are a essential requirement for making good mods, and we need something like comandslots back, if you haven't thought about it yet, DO SO.
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Post by UniTrader » Sun, 27. May 18, 17:37

ubuntufreakdragon wrote:... and we need something like comandslots back, if you haven't thought about it yet,
not sure what additional functionality they offer that cannot be done with the Dialogue Menu and/or UI Modding.. although the structure of the Dialogue Tree should be made more consistent and flexible.. (effectively 5 useable slots is very limiting, especially if you have to find a free slot)

Regarding Hotkeys two more requests for the event (if possible): please add a seperate key down and key up event, and for the latter a param returning how long the key was held. This enables a bunch of extra functionality, for example to set the strength of an EMP or stuff like this.. or the possibility to double-bind a Key to a function and accessing a config-menu for it (by holding it longer than a second)
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Post by mr.WHO » Sun, 27. May 18, 18:54

I wonder how the movement system is modable?
I mean the whole booster-highway-gate system?
Is it possible to port X-Rebirth jumpdrive system (e.g. jump beacons)?

I'm asking because I wonder - if someone would like to make Star Trek or Star Wars (this one is already planned by the guy who is doing SW mod for AP) total conversion then how much effort would be to replance X4 movement system with something that would looks more like hyperspace/warp from SW/ST.

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Post by UniTrader » Sun, 27. May 18, 19:12

mr.WHO wrote:Is it possible to port X-Rebirth jumpdrive system (e.g. jump beacons)?
using the <warp/> command* and maybe a way to change and force a ships speed (+direction) during gameplay and with some effort you can implement all thinkable modes of Travel. could be Star Wars-Style Lightspeed (or Star Trek-like Warp), Babylon 5-like Hyperspace, X-like Jumpgates and Jumpdrive... you just have to be a bit creative with how to use it for the non-X Travel Modes.. only difficulty i see is to modify the movement Scripts to properly use these modes, but in case of doubt you could rewrite them from scratch...
(and yes, i thought up ways to implement the aforementoined modes in XR and it should work)


*this command basically puts an object to another Place anywhere in the Universe without restrictions... works even on the Player Ship..
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Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

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Post by JSDD » Sun, 27. May 18, 22:12

UniTrader wrote:Regarding Hotkeys two more requests for the event (if possible): please add a seperate key down and key up event, and for the latter a param returning how long the key was held. This enables a bunch of extra functionality, for example to set the strength of an EMP or stuff like this.. or the possibility to double-bind a Key to a function and accessing a config-menu for it (by holding it longer than a second)
key_pressed
key_repeated (user still holds the key down + key_pressed already sent before this frame)
key_released


or similar to this: *glfw_lib*
event_param1 = key or button the user pressed
event_param2 = action (pressed, repeated, released)

that makes it A HOLE LOT EASIER to detect clicks without having to check each frame (!!!) if the user released that key, in order to execute 2nd time ... should be as easy to implement as in X3 by the way, just mapping a hotkey to an unique value (maybe a string)

<register_hotkey name="mynewkey" callback="thatscriptivejustcreated"/>
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Post by UniTrader » Sun, 27. May 18, 22:34

@JSDD
Polling the Keys each frame is not needed at all. just register for the key down and/or key up event and have the related code executed when they trigger - that way is far more efficient..
if you have to execute code while a key is pressed just register some termination code for it to the key_up event.. no need to have a check if a key is currently pressed, just assume that the Key is held when the key_down event triggered until there is a key_up event
if not stated otherwise everything i post is licensed under WTFPL

Ich mache keine S&M-Auftragsarbeiten, aber wenn es fragen gibt wie man etwas umsetzen kann helfe ich gerne weiter ;)

I wont do Script&Mod Request work, but if there are questions how to do something i will GLaDly help ;)

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