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Post by Honved » Tue, 3. Apr 18, 18:00

I tend to agree that weapons should not be swappable on the fly. It should either take some amount of time, or only be allowed while docked. Of course, if you've got enough turrets or turrets with multiple weapons slots, you should be able to either define which turrets attack which targets, or enable and disable individual weapons in a turret.

Having a turret that accepts a capital class weapon might do well to have a second light fighter-class weapon slot, so you could enable one or the other as needed. Being able to switch between capital class weapons (like betwen CFA and CIG) should not be possible without some down time or being docked.

In most cases, my weapons loadouts remained pretty constant after the initial "use whatever I can get or afford" stages of the game. In a few situations, I switched the weapons configuration completely for the specific mission, but switched it back afterwards.

The most glaring example of that would be the Phased Shockwave Generators on my Diemos, which were a near guaranteed "friendly fire" incident in any civilized part of space, but wreaked absolute havoc in Xenon and Kha'ak sectors where any stray "friendlies" tended not to exist for long anyway. It was like pushing a giant earaser across a chalkboard: there was a big empty streak behind me wherever my ship passed through. That's not a good idea, however, with a lot of civilians in the sector.

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Post by vkerinav » Tue, 3. Apr 18, 18:47

Killjaeden wrote:It's more of a min/max thing people will use, if they are allowed to - doesnt matter how many weapons they have available. If they have a capitalship target, they want all weapons to be effective, not just a bunch -> swap for capital weapons. If they have mostly fighter targets, swap out for Flak artillery and fast firing lasers etc. It's a natural reaction.
Well, I can only speak for myself. If ships were limited to eight turret groups instead of six, with the extra two limited to corvette weapons, and a good dynamic targeting system, I wouldn't care as much about swapping weapons.

The other thing that would help this immensely is working fleets with assigned roles for component ships, but that's another discussion entirely.

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Post by StormMagi » Tue, 10. Apr 18, 20:59

Still, with the gate network reactivating, I would think there would be a small resurgence of old x3 era weapons. And I would doubt that they have all gone away, I would guess militaries stockpiled them as they switched over to more easily repairable weapons. There would probably also be systems where some weapon factories could keep producing their weapons.
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Post by Terraner x » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 21:32

+1 for classic X weapons.
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Post by vkerinav » Thu, 12. Apr 18, 04:31

I can't say I care that much what they call the weapons. Egosoft could insist that some technology has been lost, or that new inventions have made AP era technologies impotent. Probably some mix of the two.

What I want is a good variety of weapons, with sufficient differences to make them all viable.

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Post by Honved » Fri, 13. Apr 18, 17:41

Ageed, the exact stats and names are close to irrelevant. Having several options with very DIFFERENT capabilities and reasons for using them makes more sense than 16 variations with trivial differences, or having some ships that only take one type (various Discos, several Terran fighters).

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Post by gbjbaanb » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 17:00

Killjaeden wrote: If you flat out dont allow it, people need to make more meaningfull decisions about loadout - which i think makes things more interesting.
On the other hand its more time consuming to try different loadouts...
They need the weapons dealer's super simulator kiosk in a station, where you can try out the weapons in the ship of your choice while you decide what to buy. (ie a bit of the station where you can go into space with any ship and flip loadouts at will to see what they're like, but with no impact on the state of the universe)(and a similar one where you can try out different ships before you buy too).
If you as fighterpilot would have to EVA out of your ship in space or while its landed on a station/carrier to change your weapon manually that would be enjoyable i think, interacting with your ship(s).
Sounds interesting, but I'd be just as happy with the update-at-station-only option. There's no need for the "I win" weapons swapping in space, making players... think!... before setting out.

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Post by gbjbaanb » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 17:04

Fleabum wrote:
Vandragorax wrote:This is a really good approach, and I think it will be a shame to go back to an X3 style where literally any ship can be outfitted for any purpose. It defeats the point of having different ship classes in the first place!
I have to disagree with you on that, in X3 every ship was limited to both the load out of weapons, type(mostly race based) and caliber(ship type). You could not see a M5 touting HEPT's or PBG. On the larger ships you had more choice, but this is only logical, a M2 should be able to mount all missiles, all energy, all projectile or a mixture.
Disagree there - a M2 should not be able to mount a tiny little IRE starter pistol. Their turrets should be more for the big guns, suitable for the big turrets with long range and more damage, and specialised guns like flak or point defence for anti-fighter scenarios.

So all hardpoints should be of a size relevant to the ship, and weapons designed for those sizes. (and OK, maybe you can have the bigger versions of many guns, but you shouldn't have the biggest mountable on the smaller ships, and the smallest weapons mounted on the bigger ships)

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Post by dholmstr » Sun, 15. Apr 18, 18:18

I always wondered why Egosoft went all out and did every weapon new in Rebirth. I mean IF gates went down and pockets of space were cut of, wouldn't the old tech linger on for quite a while? And if resources were scares did they really have enough to start everything anew? Do think the HIT/MA and Plasma/MA are more or less evolutions of x3 weapons (I actually like those 2, they have cons and pros). The PLASMA is really a new version of TERRAN Empc.

I was also abit baffled why they designed all new ships and not used more of the old works horses like Nova and such, instead they made loads of really crappy fighters for some reasons.

But back to guns, I want to see the old system where I could choose the role of my fighters (and even capitals), by picking guns for the said task. Like HEPT for heavy duty shooting bigger ships and PACS for wacking fighters vs fighters.

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Post by Honved » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 17:07

dholmstr wrote: But back to guns, I want to see the old system where I could choose the role of my fighters (and even capitals), by picking guns for the said task. Like HEPT for heavy duty shooting bigger ships and PACS for wacking fighters vs fighters.
The problem with HEPT versus PAC was that In-System, the higher rate of fire and slightly lower energy draw per point of damage of PAC made it my fighter weapon of choice for taking on capital ships. HEPT burned too much power, and the target's shields regenerated before my guns did. I found 6xPAC plus 2 of some more specialized weapon (PBG, Ion-D, or PRG), or else 8xPAC, to be better choices than some multiple of HEPTs. Out of system it didn't pay at all to use PAC if you could fit HEPT.

X3:TC had a number of highly specializd guns:

Ion Disruptors - area effect, minimal hull damage, high shield and internal systems damage, ideal for "stripping" weapons and systems from a ship before boarding.

Plasma Burst Generators - area effect, mulitple hit areas on larger targets. Nasty against anything that gets close enough.

Phased Repeater Guns - high bullet speed, high rate of fire, but low damage per shot made it ideal for controlled damage against small, fast targets.

Proton Beam Emitters (or "Pure Bloody Evil") - high sheld damage, low hull damage, extreme speed but short range, ideal for taking down shields without doing a lot of hull damage.

Mass Driver Cannons - bypassed shields completely.

My hope is that the degree of difference between weapons is at least as great in X4, rather than simply various "sizes" of weapons with widely varying names but functionally just bigger and smaller versions of the same thing. If they're going to be just different sizes of the same thing, call them the same thing, with a number or letter to indicate size: "A/B/C", or "L/M/H" versions.

Oh, and while we're at it, PLEASE fix the broken ship nomenclature. The earlier games in the series had M3-M5, and when bigger ships were added (M1, M2), it left no room for more between them, so we got M6, M7, and M8 waaaaaay out of sequence; then they added M0 because it made no sense to call a super-capital ship an M9. The whole thing needs to be renumbered in a more logical order, from smallest (M1) to largest, so it's an open-ended scale for future games in the series (looking at you, M20: artificial planet?). They could still use M0 as a military designation for civilian personal transports (the space equivalent of the family car), or some other smaller class than scout ships. The old veterans know the present crazy sequence of numbers, but it's got to be a lot of needless confusion for a new player.

By the way, I figure it's better to ask and/or complain about stuff now, rather than wait 6 months or a year until the fundamentals are already mostly done, and it's too late to change things.

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Post by mr.WHO » Mon, 16. Apr 18, 18:55

I don't care for X3 weapons, but I do care for X3 weapon variety.
X-Rebirth was poor in both player and NPC/capship weapons.

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Post by ajime » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 04:40

Ahh.. the rich weapon content options in X3, so much effort i have spent for configuring my ships to experiment guns. I gotta get back to my fully PAC armed Python soon to get some fun.

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Post by ubuntufreakdragon » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 10:53

I want a real Ion disruptor that disables surface elements individually without destroying them.
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Post by dholmstr » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 21:41

Honved, I wasn't really talking about HEPT vs PAC per say, more about the the overall options when it came to what guns on what ship. This option is not present in Rebirth (except maybe the players ship buuut thats a whole other thingy).
I just wonder why they they choose to go the one gun option on the players ship, and why we can't choose what guns on our fighters. Again it prolly would need more out of the engine than they have time or resources to build on. The capital guns are good, but again there ain't a choice just put all in and get on with it.
The picture I have gotten about Rebirth was that Egosoft wanted to try a new engine and rightly so. I was also willing to pay actual money for that so they could continue the work. I don't think Rebirth was ever anything more than a xtensive lab test :)

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Post by A5PECT » Tue, 17. Apr 18, 23:23

I liked the variety of weapons on the Skunk in XR, they all had distinct feels and functions, and catered to several different combat styles. It was a little silly having all of those different weapons on the Skunk at the same time, and disappointing being restricted to using one weapon at a time. But both of those issues should be resolved in X4.

The weapon selection for AI-controlled ships was what was really lacking in XR.

I wasn't a fan of the alpha/beta/gamma system, and was glad to see it done away with in AP. Weapon design like that is overly graduated distinction with no real difference.
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