capital ship gravity draft removes combat challenge

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Len5
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Post by Len5 » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 00:45

How much of a blindspot do capships have if they're protected by swarms of drones?

adeine
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Post by adeine » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 03:14

GCU Grey Area wrote: They have "huge powerful engines" which easily beat fighters when running at full speed (i.e. boosting). Even with mk5 supercharged engines it would be impossible to keep up with my freighter for long without it (I have on occasion drifted just a little too far, been left behind & had to try to catch up).

It's not just about stealing other people's stuff, it's also damn handy for flying in formation with my own capitals on long journeys. It's also one of those things that's very easy to avoid using if you don't like it. Certainly very rare for me to use it offensively, generally prefer to avoid being a slow moving or stationary target if there are hostile capitals with lots of guns in the vicinity - hence those mk5 supercharged engines.

Hope it's still present in X4.
Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.

This sounds like a poor decision in so many ways, gameplay-wise. Not only does it make piracy irrelevant (want to catch my heavy freighter with your fighters? well, let me just run away), but it also makes scout ships completely useless. Whereas previously in an X fleet it made sense to have fast scout vessels to clear the area or shield for missiles/whatnot, there'd be no point if your capital ships are faster at getting around (and manoeuvrability doesn't matter since you have turrets). It also makes flying small ships yourself pointless because if you make a capship angry, you won't be able to get away.

While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design. Not to mention it's kind of weird and unpredictable from a control standpoint.

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Killjaeden
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Post by Killjaeden » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 03:54

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:Do we want a game that only a "super elite" with superb reflexes and flying / fighting skills can enjoy.
I explained it's easier with gravity draft. I suggested the option to turn it off - and more universally - adjustable difficulty options in general. Your rant is completely unwarranted.
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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 05:20

its very predictable and much easier to control than the alternative.

Capital ships are only faster strategically, not tactically.

XR capital ships have few actual blindspots (even ignoring drones), but its relatively easy to create some by destroying turrets. What actually controls this is that you don't necessarily get a lot of benefit from just destroying a capital vs boarding it, and boarding requires much more widespread destruction of surface elements. Xenon K have to be destroyed but are fairly likely to be engaging in the vicinity of a station which provides the raw firepower.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 09:06

@Killjaeden

Oh dear the selective quote and call it ranting so that the rest of the post can be dismissed tactic. How sad.

If I recall correctly you think that X-Rebirth was a "huge failure", that you don't actually play the game. So the OP in this thread is pure speculation on your part, it is not based on fact or even your own experience.

Myself and others have used this feature to allow us to fast travel along side a capital ship. Indeed I have seen capitals boosting with their own fighter support using this technique. It allows a capital to deploy its support very quickly once boosting stops.

Seems to me this is just another in a long line of its not in X3 so it shouldn't be in X4 type threads. Which to my mind is saddening as modders usually bring new game-play and innovation to the series, it
just seems that some of them, don't like Egosoft doing the same.
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Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 12:55

adeine wrote:While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design.
Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?

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Post by DavidGW » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 15:25

adeine wrote:Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.
Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.

Although I guess they are also faster than small ships when jumping, if that counts.
This sounds like a poor decision in so many ways, gameplay-wise. Not only does it make piracy irrelevant (want to catch my heavy freighter with your fighters? well, let me just run away), but it also makes scout ships completely useless. Whereas previously in an X fleet it made sense to have fast scout vessels to clear the area or shield for missiles/whatnot, there'd be no point if your capital ships are faster at getting around (and manoeuvrability doesn't matter since you have turrets). It also makes flying small ships yourself pointless because if you make a capship angry, you won't be able to get away.
None of this is true in X Rebirth. You can always catch cap ships, because they only boost between zones. Worst case scenario you have to chase one across a system, but most of the time you can fly faster than them. And if not, you have plenty of time when they are navigating around stations, and can't boost.

Furthermore, you can also easily outrun a cap ship because they are useless at manoeuvring. I don't think I've ever had a cap ship boost after me, but even if they could, all you would need to do is fly away on a vector not straight in front of them, and you'd be gone by the time they turn.
While I haven't played it myself, the more I read about this "feature" it seems to be a hacky workaround for bad design. Not to mention it's kind of weird and unpredictable from a control standpoint.
That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.

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LittleBird
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Post by LittleBird » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 16:56

DavidGW wrote:
adeine wrote:Larger ships are faster than small ships in X:R?

Oh dear.
Yes, they are. When boosting. Only when boosting.
If you keep up this explanations people who never played X-Rebirth are confused.

So no. They are not faster!
- Small ships use Highways for long range travel between zones.
- Capital ships are way to huge for highways. They use some kind of travel engine to boost trough the empty space between zones.
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MegaJohnny
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Post by MegaJohnny » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 17:25

My only gripe with cap boosters is that, while they happily use hem to get away, they don't use them to catch up unless the target boosts into another zone. If you're the pursuer you can do kludges like "withdraw from battle" to make it boost straight ahead, or tell it to travel to a zone on the other side of the target. But it'd be best if the AI would do it by itself.

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repatomonor
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Post by repatomonor » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 21:32

I think you guys are overcomplicating this matter. It's easy to solve imo: put this feature automatically into "easy" gamemode. Let it be an optional upgrade in "medium", and disable it completely in "hard".

Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 21:50

@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
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repatomonor
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Post by repatomonor » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 22:08

Alan Phipps wrote:@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.

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LittleBird
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Post by LittleBird » Sat, 31. Mar 18, 23:18

repatomonor wrote:
Alan Phipps wrote:@ repatomonor: Do you mind if I watch when you suggest to CBJ having an additional "easy to solve" 'optional' gameplay function in an X game? :D
Then just make it optional like the flight assist in Rebirth? I don't know much about the development policies here. All I see is the fanbase siding 50:50 to the features introduced in Rebirth, and I'm trying to come up with a possibly easy solution.
With X-Rebirth Egosoft fokused on ship systems on the surface. I am sure this is in X4 as well.
You simply need some kind of flight assist for this mechanic. And people who say they could maneuver without on the surface or - even better - inside the capital ships... are dreaming.
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DavidGW
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Post by DavidGW » Sun, 1. Apr 18, 07:27

I can see that they might decide to switch off cap ship wake when flight assist mode is disabled. I very much doubt they would add it as an overall game toggle. If they did that, they would have to balance the game for both situations, which would be hard.

I do believe that there is an excellent chance it will be easy to mod out, though.

adeine
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Post by adeine » Mon, 2. Apr 18, 02:02

GCU Grey Area wrote: Personally would never even consider going onto a forum & posting at length about features in game I have never played. You are in fact entirely wrong about everything you posted. Piracy of capital ships is far from irrelevant (indeed it can be a lot of fun). Small ships have useful roles. As for not being able to get away from capitals, you're simply ignorant about how capital ship boosters work & the circumstances in which they can be activated. Why not try the free XR demo so you can see for yourself how these features work in practice?
I've briefly tried X:R but did not enjoy it enough to buy or seriously play it (and clearly don't remember a lot of it).

I'd agree with you if this was an X:R forum, but I think ignorant (re: X:R) posts like my own are warranted when we're talking about a sequel to a game I am familiar with and would love to see lived up to.

It's not so much that I'm saying this is how things are in X:R, clearly I don't know, but what I think is a bad idea for the reasons given.

DavidGW wrote: That's the main problem. You haven't played it, so you haven't seen cap ship behaviour in context, and therefore you can't really judge. One of the reasons the feature exists is to avoid accidental collisions with cap ships. I don't have a problem with this, because accidental collisions with cap ships (especially just after transiting an accelerator or gate) really annoyed me in X3: unavoidable insta-death.

Furthermore, I maintain that this idea is 'realistic', as a magic inertia field device would be necessary to get 'real' ships to move like they do in these games, without killing everyone inside. Perfectly reasonable to expect that the field would extend beyond the ship a small way as well.
Thanks for the clarifications regarding boosting. Still seems weird to me, but at least mitigates some of the gameplay problems.

Not convinced magic inertia fields are the best way to solve the auto-pillock though (cf: hacky workaround for bad design).

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