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Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion
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aeolian





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 15:06    Post subject: Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion Reply with quote Print

Well, simply put, X3 is one of my best experiences in gaming. XR, one of my worst, because of highways and stations.

Why no jumpdrives? Basically, it usually comes up with the "it kills the game" thing.

Facts checking:
- Jumdrives in X3; so logically, people would have their game "killed" and would not get all the fun out of it and would end up not playing X3 at all.
- Highways in XR; so logically, people would love being bounced left and right and having to deal with that tedious highways entering joke.

Actually, it's the complete opposite that happens.
Facts are more stubborn than the people ignoring them.
Egosoft forum, Steam forum, youtube, reddit, all agree in volumes.

So, OK, we got it. German are addicted to speed highways... but I would recommend leaving those to real life: a ship is not a German car. It's much more, why would we restrict them to be nothing but a wagon?

With a ship equipped with jumpdrive, I could both play the fast game and when I had time or decided so, I would have my slow trip through the sectors one by one for chasing missions.
I have choice, I have fun and in control of my gameplay.

With highways, it's over. Just one option left: submit to this boring no-brainer and let yourself be dragged around by the tube. Not sexy.

This killed my appetite for the X series and I quit XR to go back to X3 and try XRM, litcube's and so on.
You might want to consider bringing people like me back into your series by making the game less boring.

This could be done easily by avoiding repetitive and boring tasks such as:
- Highways (useless, not immersive, cumbersome, looks like shit in space TBH)
- Stations wandering (I don't know ANYONE who likes to wander around those stations for opening crates and talking to ugly NPC's)
- Tedious supply management with no proper scripts (templates for supplying ships and stations?)

Anyway, I'm now (happily) frozen on X3:AP and will not play anything that looks like XR. Been there, done that and XR will always be one of my worst gaming experiences.

If you wanna go this path for X4, please, please, keep the X3 versions alive and updated so I can keep playing my favorite space sandbox.

Thanks for your attention.

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The Q
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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 16:00    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

And here we go again. Another user who knows what everyone wants, ignoring reasons behind decisions which have been communicated so far and discussed by other users in detail. What about stating your opinion as what it is an opinion, instead of calling everyone stupid, who does not agree with you?! I know it's a complicated concept, but feel free to try it.

As for your so-called facts: X Rebirth has jumpdrives, too.

X4 will not have a jumpdrive, but highways, the turbo booster, travel drive, the SETA, and teleportation. So all in all will have more options than X3 to travel through the universe on a faster or slower pace.

As for the other things mentioned, I suggest checking out the Q&As and livestreams linked in the X4 Q&A thread:

X4 Q&A thread wrote:
I'm curious about the travel system how all that is gonna work?
Travel will be similar to XR, whereby the highways will be mostly in straight lines or single radius curves. Not all zones will have highways and you will be able to boost over longer distances. This is following the steps we did in the Home of Light DLC. Additionally, using a feature called "Teleportation" you will be able to teleport between your ships, to travel much more quickly.


X4 Q&A thread wrote:
Are we forced to walk on stations or can we control all aspects from cockpit?
Platform gameplay has been reduced in comparison to X Rebirth. However, there are new interaction possibilities on platforms, and walking will always have a real purpose, for example as part of missions.


X4 Q&A thread wrote:
Will we be able to build self sufficient stations?
Maybe not entirely self-sufficient but you can certainly "chain" production.
[...]
Will we be able to save station layouts, or sections of stations, like a default living space and storage or something we would want to use for future station designs?
You plan and design your station in a graphical editor and save the blueprints to build these stations later.
[...]
In x rebirth i have build a station to build rockets. but i cant transfer the rockets to the playership. can i trade this in X4?
Ammunition production and supply will be different in X4, but you’ll have to wait for more information on this.
[...]
Will there be more tactical weapons? Like, weapons that are really effective against subsystems but useless against hull/shields or EMP missiles that makes it impossible for ships hit by it to target something and shoot missiles.
I can't give details about specific weapons, but you will be able to give your ships different loadouts, and you'll be able to save and re-use loadouts.




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Jeraal





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 17:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I'll throw my support behind OP. I hate highways and have no interest in FPS play in an X game. From what I've read so far, it looks like I'll be waiting for a massive price drop to get X4 if at all. That's what I did with XR and still feel I paid too much.


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Ranix





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 18:23    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I bought x:r and never played it. It looked like half of an X game. They probably just needed to release something to keep the cash flow running while they continued development of x4

that's fine with me, after all the hours I have spent on x2 and x3 I would even donate to Egosoft straight up. But it's better to buy expansion packs and game releases even if the game is not good, as long as it is getting us closer to the next X

I liked the highways in Freelancer. We'd better not have that weird minigame that X:R had in x4 though

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aeolian





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 18:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

OK, you'll have your X4 with no jumpdrives and - as stated in the last twitch stream - you'll get "probably" SETA.

As you say, another user... and we're legion, told you.

I've seen X3, then XR, and I've seen the shit hitting the fans with those last rotten ideas killing the gameplay.

So the burden of proof doesn't fall on my side and this whole war about hysterical fanboys rejecting jumpdrive is ridiculous.

I'm just requesting that X3 (TC, AP and on) do not suffer from stupid ideas or bad decisions.

Have fun with X4.

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Vandragorax





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 19:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

To the OP, it's quite evident you haven't really read any of the material so far we've had in the X4 Q&A thread, or seen any of the dev videos where they clearly explain the reasoning behind removing jump drives and what alternatives are being added.

The jumpdrive questions have been answered 100 times already, and the devs understand the advantages and limitations of the jumpdrive functionality. They have come up with a lot of alternative ways of overcoming the problems while at the same time not making the player lose the advantages of quick travel.

Ultimately, the jumpdrive ruins the feeling of a universe actually being large (like quick-travel does in so many "free roam" games - such as FarCry or whatnot). I feel that the alternatives the Egosoft team have come up with are absolutely going to blow jumpdrives out of the water, but if you feel that you can't even possibly stomach trying something new then you're of course free to carry on playing X3. They are certainly not going to be removing JD's out of X3 so you are safe there lol

We don't even have the final implementation for X4 yet so once it's actually out, then we can start comparing the actual gameplay advantages of one system over the other, but you will be missing out if you will not even give X4 a try just because of "no jumpdrives" Very Happy


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aeolian





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 21:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@Vandragorax, well... again, not like I'm not used to reading those comments on the other forums threads.
I'm sorry, but I've caught up constantly on X4. So you might just drop the "he didn't check", you'd be surprised.

Simply put, cause you're suggesting it's a very complicated debate, and it's not, challenge balance is the key point for the developers to remove the jumpdrive.
And that's it, no other reasons, you can check and double check, it all comes down to that.
They want to force the player to follow a constrained path.

If you come up and say "oh, it's more complicated than that, he doesn't know", and bla bla bla, well, stop the crap, I can read a forum thread pretty much as well as anyone can.

They just put the gameplay in lower priority.
They forgot X series are actually not so challenging, X3 is a great 4x immersive game instead.
Not Star Citizen.
Not Elite Dangerous.

Further, last decision makers are not the dev forums, but the final players. So maybe you'll have to bear with us ranting about losing a feature and degrading our known experience.

Oh wait, did you notice that X:R has been an horrible Waterloo for Egosoft?
Maybe you were too busy reading through the dev forums, but IRL...
It's rare to have such feedback, both by the players AND the journalists, a massive trashing, unsynchronized, not led by anyone, just that the vast majority agreed that X:R gameplay sucks.

Now, reality check.
Cause X:R failure is not about the bugs...
Just remember auto-pillock and yet how you love X series.
Add Fallout New Vegas and Skyrim, glitches, plots frozen, still great games.

Well...

Dodging ships in a tube where you're packed like chickens in a box, not looking at all like space is not 4x. It's 4 y/o kids tablet game, hit left, right, up, down... (well, we could have this conversation about challenge balancing...).
I prefer SHIFT+J, then boom, back in space.

Having this dull turbo boost is not helping at all, we're talking about switching sectors and avoiding corridors.

Wandering around stations to find crates and chit chatting with potential engineers or recruits is not 4x.
To its best, it's Star Citizen, and Robert Space Industries is way more advanced on the field than Egosoft.

Actually, X:R added only "corridors" to the gameplay and X4 is going the same path apparently.
Even specialized drones were just cluttering the gameplay with dull ellipses.
Corridors and just that.

And you can add SETA, turbo boost and so on, you're still degrading not so nicely the player's experience.

About decision making, simply consider two universes:
1 - jumpdrive is not installed in game.
People like me feel frustrated cause I prefer to spend time in space rather than in a tube or looking for an ugly NPC to have a chat with. We'll install a mod and get *modified*. For jumping!

2 - jumpdrive is available.
People like me are happy, plus people like you as well, you will not use jumpdrive because of the so called "challenges" that you will apply to yourself, without imposing them on others.

In your universe, there's only a few contented players.
In my universe, everyone can play and enjoy the game, fitting it up to its personal taste, waiting for mods or happy with vanilla, but no time wasters corridors rotting my flying experience. I immediately removed the wormhole animation once X3 installed, just because of that.

No corridors gameplay. It's not 4x.

I definitely prefer reality check to make decisions and more people happy rather than fewer.

Cause players segregation can be avoided in that case.
And well, I won't feel right being segregated; and again, sorry, but definitely, you'll have the word "stupid" coming up, cause segregation is always stupid.

Like it or not.

Anyway, I'm more than happy to be wrong when X4 is praised and announced as the best game ever, but from the dev forums you're so faithfully calling in, X4 will look like X:R, not X3.
First Twitch stream confirms my thoughts.
Plus, X:R reviews, unless everyone decides that X:R has never existed, are proving that the devs are really on the wrong path.

Wish you luck to prove reality is wrong.

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LittleBird





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PostPosted: Fri, 23. Mar 18, 23:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

aeolian wrote:

About decision making, simply consider two universes:
1 - jumpdrive is not installed in game.
People like me feel frustrated cause I prefer to spend time in space rather than in a tube or looking for an ugly NPC to have a chat with. We'll install a mod and get *modified*. For jumping!

2 - jumpdrive is available.
People like me are happy, plus people like you as well, you will not use jumpdrive because of the so called "challenges" that you will apply to yourself, without imposing them on others.

It's not that simple.
The existence of a jump drive will hurt game balance. Allways. Because you need missions that you can complete without it. And that means if you have a jump drive such missions become a piece of cake.

Also you are not ranting about removed jump drives or highways but about X-Rebirth in general. Just look at your post.
You say X-Rebirth is bad and many players and journalists share your opinion -> conclusion: jump drive.
Sry but this is rubbish and you can rant about the game what ever you want but pls consider you are talking to people.
So do not aim with you rant at people kay?


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Sandalpocalypse





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 00:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Quote:
2 - jumpdrive is available.
People like me are happy, plus people like you as well, you will not use jumpdrive because of the so called "challenges" that you will apply to yourself, without imposing them on others.


massive logical flaws, demonstrated thusly:

-infinite money button is available
People like me ar ehappy, plus people like you as well, you will not use infinity money button because of the so called "challenges" that you will apply to yourself, without imposing them others.

games are by definition exercises in imposing restrictions on players. And if you are talking about optional things to engage in games- an x game fundamentally designed around no jumpdrive will function adequately with a cheated or modded jumpdrive, but the converse is not true; trying to play no JD is crippling yourself when missions and everything assume you have one.

In any case.... Teleportation is superior to jumpdrive in terms of moving the player around - you can directly access your ships. The difference is that you can't move assets around the world instantly, which makes a tremendous difference in effective world size.


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aeolian





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 00:36    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Well, I won't quote myself, but summing up:
1- X3 is immersive 4x in space, because of jump drive and sandbox features
2- X:R is a piece of crap
3- X4:F has been introduced via a streaming and looks much like X:R, not X3
4- Problem inflating gameplay with useless content and corridors is still present.

Hope it's clear why I'm presenting X4 as the new X:Rebirth.
Cause it's certainly not the new X3.

Your argument about game balance is indeed what makes dev cry.
But X:X is a sandbox, and deciding to constrain the player is basically deciding to change X:X rationale to be more like an Elite Dangerous or a Star Citizen.

By the way, extending on the subject, have you heard this developer explaining that you could click on a chair and switch seats with a copilot?

What the heck is that? Why can't you just access the same panel your copilot has on YOUR screen, you're the commander! You shouldn't have to "switch seat". It would avoid all these pesky switching scenes were you see the player sitting down, or standing up, or whatever.

It's not even immersive because of the horrible graphics, it's just loading scenes and gameplay corridors, again. And they've shown the new characters, not much better. Thanks for the "it's still under development" from the developer, but we heard that with Rebirth... and it came up horrible the same way.

And honestly, I wouldn't be so harsh on them if those scenes would have been properly crafted. But the graphics are terrible, I hardly remember when I saw such ugly faces, such poor dubbing and shaming interiors, repetitive patterns, bad placements, short useless loading scenes... where should we start?

Well, I'm used to having the X series pretty much alike and following the same pattern, enhancing the graphics and options in menus and strategies, building an updated list of ships that you can drive, etc.

This problem of being able to shift missions expectations by using jumpdrive has never been an issue for me.

So, I understand why they want to remove it from their perspective. The problem is that:
1- It's segregating players
2- It's raising issues that do not even exist for the players
3- It's changing the rationale of the X series
4- It's changing how the X series are usually updated
5- The changes themselves are gameplay mistakes, immediately trashed by the community.
6- We can definitely say that X4 is the sequel of Rebirth, not X3.

So devs can cry out of frustration or lack of control over the player, it's not about them, it's about us.

EA games now knows this simple fact after the reactions they received regarding Mass Effects Andromeda and Battlefront II and how they tried to manipulate the player.

Egosoft should learn that simple fact too, from the sheer fact that their recent shift is proven to be a very bad choice.

Now, just for sharing some fun with you, imagine...
X3 with a jump drive
- and better graphics
- and a working auto pilot
- and better logistics (they had to call in Lucike's CLS...)
- and ships loadout template
- and a map that displays all our ships in the universe with their status

I would call it X4... Wouldn't you?

But no, devs decided that what kills the X universe is the player doing what he wants in its sandbox!

The bug is not their poor mission manager, it's the player, so they're taking our toys away and putting us in corridors, so the cows don't run out and will fall in line to be properly milked.

Well, I was very happy with the way X3 managed missions and it could have been updated without the devs going tits up with the X baseline.

Just not the spirit I'm used to in X.

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Graaf



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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 00:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

LittleBird wrote:
You say X-Rebirth is bad and many players and journalists share your opinion -> conclusion: jump drive.

TBH Rebirth is bad. And it's not because of Jumpdrives, or lack thereof. Is all because of its design. And this Rebirth 2, being marketed as X4, is a continuation of that.



Sandalapocalypse wrote:
In any case.... Teleportation is superior to jumpdrive in terms of moving the player around - you can directly access your ships. The difference is that you can't move assets around the world instantly, which makes a tremendous difference in effective world size.

You can't directly access your ship. You need to relieve the pilot first. Which is probably going to be a cut-scene long enough to get yourself killed anyways.

Since you are still jumping around the local star cluster, how is this promoting effective world size? Are they going to limit the ability to use it based on combat conditions? A cooldown period?

Talking about the local star cluster. Considering that small size and design of the "universe", and the fact we can only jump to a Jumpgate, why not have a jumpdrive? The teleporter is going to be far more disruptive.

The main asset being moved around is you. But we need a valid destination to go to. Therefor I do not think we will actually use it until certain conditions are met. No point jumping around only to get insta-killed.

Apparently the ability to use and distance of the Teleporter has to be researched at the PHQ. So it probably is going to be a late game attribute anyways.

Lastly it is being marketed as a device to get into the action fast. So again focussing on those who prefer Fight over Trade. I find a Jumpdrive far more important then a teleporter. Unless it is to move cargo between ships.


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aeolian





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 01:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I like your sig !

"There is no Walk" took me up for a minute laughing.

So true Wink

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aeolian





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 01:14    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@Sandalpocalypse

Do you have the "unlimited money button" from day one installed as a feature in your X game?

Cause if you do and you lost it, then it's called degrading your experience.
If it's unexpected, then computer science calls it a "bug".

So, personally, I have a jumpdrive.
Taking it out would be called a downgraded experience.
It is expected, so it's not a bug. It's a dev.

For the massive flaw in the logic, you just missed what is called customs.
Do you know what I'm talking about?

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Ranix





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 01:15    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I'm fine with teleporting to a ship I own

you're still heavily movement-restricted because you need to gather your ships in one place if you want them to be together. There's no need to make the player sit there and travel while the ships are doing it if he feels like doing something else and has enough spare $ to park a ship somewhere he wants access to

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Karvat





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PostPosted: Sat, 24. Mar 18, 04:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

In my opinion the wisest thing to do about the transport system in x4 is to implement the jumpdrive only in larger ships, with a charging system that allows you to use it only rarely and in case of emergency. The highways are fine, but must be limited to the densest areas of the most populated clusters. The transorbital accelerators I would leave them only in the Terran sectors, to do a bit of stage and differentiate them from the classic portals that we are abused to see. Regarding the propulsion of the engines, a third bar must be implemented beyond the hull and the shield that represents the overheating of the engines, the engines must not consume the shields, are two different things, and get quickly to the center of a fight without a shield is not enjoyable. Finally, teleportation must be absolutely there, it's brilliant as an idea.

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