Save Game System

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LittleBird
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Post by LittleBird » Wed, 11. Apr 18, 21:53

Nanook wrote:
Tamina wrote:
Nanook wrote:Look up the definition of 'cheating' before you make a reply, please.
I did. Nowhere does it say you have to cheat someone.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/cheat
"Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage."...
Exactly why is it acting dishonestly or unfairly? Those terms by their very definition imply acting against someone else. Exactly how do you 'cheat' yourself in a single player game?
Mostly with opening the console of old games and input: "god mode 1" etc. :wink:
Well cheats in single player games were common.

But why bother about a discussion about the definition? Everyone knows what Tamina meant.

And it is right. By save and load you can trick the game and evade negative consequences. For people who want the game experience with one save only they technically could just use one save slot. But they have the option to "cheat" themselfs by using another one. Be it impatience or lack of self-control. But it will hurt their game experience they want.
For an example how important a one save slot only mechanic can be look at Dark Souls. Now imagine you could save everytime in different slots. It would be another game.
So for X4. If you have to fear consequences without just loading 10 mins. before, you play differently. Some people want it. So why not?
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Killjaeden
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Post by Killjaeden » Thu, 12. Apr 18, 13:08

Nanook wrote:No, it is not "nonsense"! In order to cheat, you have to be cheating someone out of something.
Videogames have rules set by the developer to challenge the player. If you break the rules to make it easier, you are cheating the game (and yourself) out of the challenge and/or experience the creator envisioned. Nothing wrong with that in essence, but it's still cheating. But this only applies to old SP games anymore.

In times where basically every SP game has Steam achievements or similar thing, cheating in SP no longer is just affecting the player himself. He can boast achieving a challenge to others, without having achieved it legitimately. I couldn't care less about this achievement e-peen BS, but there are (apparently a significant amount of) people who do - so it's not an argument that can be simply dismissed by "but i dont care" attitude.
LittleBird wrote:why bother about a discussion about the definition
Because people dont like to leave the chance in the air for admitting that they might be wrong, so even irrelevant points become focus points of hot debates :goner:
But they have the option to "cheat" themselfs by using another one. Be it impatience or lack of self-control.
The save menu in X3 would always default it's selection to the next unused save slot - so they could easily create a new save by mistake as well. Plus there where three autosave slots that you had no choice but to use iirc. So the temptation becomes even worse, if you create new saves by mistake, or when the game puts 3 alternative saves always in front of your nose.
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Nanook
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Post by Nanook » Fri, 20. Apr 18, 20:52

Killjaeden wrote:
Nanook wrote:No, it is not "nonsense"! In order to cheat, you have to be cheating someone out of something.
Videogames have rules set by the developer to challenge the player. If you break the rules to make it easier, you are cheating the game (and yourself) out of the challenge and/or experience the creator envisioned....
If you want to consider it cheating yourself, that's fine. But do not tell me I'm cheating because I adjust a single player game to be fun for me. I don't really give a rat's behind what the developer 'meant'. I paid my money and I'll get the enjoyment out of a game however I want. I'm not 'cheating myself', I'm getting what I want out of a game.

I personally do not like linear gameplay. Not being able to save and reload creates linear gameplay, since the player is no longer free to try different approaches without completely restarting a game. Forcing the player to completely start from scratch every time something goes bad is just plain bad game design, IMO, and is out of place in games like the X series.
Killjaeden wrote:... Plus there where three autosave slots that you had no choice but to use iirc. So the temptation becomes even worse, if you create new saves by mistake, or when the game puts 3 alternative saves always in front of your nose.
Been a while since you played an X game? The autosave feature was a toggle switch in the gameplay menu where you could turn it on or off at will. :P
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Silla
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Post by Silla » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 16:48

Why are people even talking about this. It really doesn’t matter if it is cheating or what not. It is just about having such an option would be a ‚nice have‘ and shouldn’t be to difficult to add. Therefore please Egosoft consider adding something like an Ironman mode.

symbine
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Post by symbine » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 17:22

Nanook wrote:
I don't really give a rat's behind what the developer 'meant'.
I really dont think that is a thing a moderator should say. Your basicly bad mouthing the developer's. If you really didnt "give a rat's behind" then you wouldnt buy the game.

The developer of the game put a lot of work into it, and your saying it doesnt matter. Very not cool.

Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 18:38

@ symbine: No he isn't. He is saying that the way the game plays is not entirely to his taste and so he changes it (in a legitimate way) to something that it is more so without worrying too much that the devs might have had something different in mind.

What you say would also imply that every 3rd party mod and script on the S&M forum is bad-mouthing the developers too. That is patently untrue since the devs actively encourage modders and even sometimes incorporate their work (with permission and credits) into later versions of their released games.

Be aware volunteer moderators are just players who wanted to help out and are quite entitled to express their own opinions, good or bad, about the gameplay and other topics here on the forum as long as they also stay within the forum rules and the code of common decency that apply to all. Forum users should be able to tell easily by the tone of the post when a forum moderator has his 'official hat on'.
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nemesis1982
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Post by nemesis1982 » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 20:22

I don't see why people always want to force these nonsensical ideas on others. If someone mods a (single player) game let them do so if they desire.

Same with loading a save from time to time. I and many people do not have the time to restart a game every time we make a unrecoverable mistake. And especially do not want to take 90% of the same actions over and over and over again. That would spoil the fun.

Some do have the time and do not mind to restart when something disastrous happens (for x games this often just means a game breaking bug). Good for them. I'd agree egosoft should probably add a optional Iron man mode. But don't go pushing your morals and view points and disregarding those of others!
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Karvat
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Post by Karvat » Sat, 21. Apr 18, 21:11

I have a commitment in half an hour, during the wait I decide to play something, but I can't play x4 because I'm not sure if i will manage to save all the progress done if I find myself lost in an unknown sector miles away from a station, and I do not have any credits to buy a life insurance, or anyway I can not buy them in the neighborhood. Or after 10 minutes I get fed up and want to leave the game. so I decide not to play at all, is that normal? No, let the player save at any time

symbine
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Post by symbine » Sun, 22. Apr 18, 21:52

I didnt say anything about modding. I have no problem with modding.

What I meant was that actually saying that he doesnt "give a rat's behind" about what the devs meant is bad mouthing the devs work.

Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 22. Apr 18, 22:17

@ symbine: He is describing his own attitude towards the default gameplay framework and options/settings and is not saying anything rude about the devs in person. You may not like his colourful choice of words, and you may even strongly disagree with him, but forum rule 2 permits use of mild swearing so he is quite within his rights to so express strongly worded personal opinions.

Also I think you will find the devs have far thicker skins than you give them credit for. They have needed it at times given some of the really vitriolic posts they see!

Anyway, {official hat now on} this is getting way off topic now so let's drop this or I'll have to split and lock this part of the discussion. If you have any further concerns on this matter that you want to discuss with me then please do so using PM. Also if you have a complaint about moderation or moderators, please consider PMing a Site Admin such as CBJ or Xenon_Slayer who would then review and resolve the matter.
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sd_jasper
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Post by sd_jasper » Mon, 23. Apr 18, 17:39

I would love to see an option where the player is auto-teleported to another ship when their current ship is destroyed...

BUT I would NOT like that to be tied to a system that prevents saving/loading. See, I like "hardcore"/"ironman"/"survival" type modes, but all too often I loose HOURS of gameplay due to CRASHES. And it really bothers me that these gameplay modes tend to be all-or-nothing.

I'd rather saving be a player choice that is divorced from the game-play mode. Would some people "exploit" saves? Sure, but what do I care about how other people play?

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Axeface
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Post by Axeface » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 06:15

Nanook wrote: I personally do not like linear gameplay. Not being able to save and reload creates linear gameplay, since the player is no longer free to try different approaches without completely restarting a game. Forcing the player to completely start from scratch every time something goes bad is just plain bad game design, IMO, and is out of place in games like the X series.
Yet again, for the hundredth time, I have to stipulate that what I am asking for would be an Ironman OPTION at gamestart for ME. It would not stop you saving or reloading - seriously, this is getting ridiculous. You could not choose the option and have the same save/load functionality as X3.

I want an option that wont affect you, at all. But it would fundamentally change the game for me.

And, 'Forcing the player to RESTART FROM SCRATCH'... yet again, a fundamental misunderstanding of what ironman mode actually is... I honestly dont even understand why you are arguing against something you do not understand at all. You seem to just argue against anything I say on these forums, regardless of what it is.
Killjaeden wrote: Giving people the option to help them with their "addiction" of gaming the system by save/reload will help them enjoy the game more. Trying to deny them this option seems like a very petty thing to me :roll:
Thanks, thats a good way to put it - and I would be the first to admit that its just like that.
I have argued against the 'dont like it dont use it' mentality so much that honestly I feel somewhat subjugated, its like i'm talking to people that are inherently incapable of understanding the words that are coming out of my mouth, yet its so simple - I want Ironman mode in all games. You dont? Wonderful... I do. Why does it seem so difficult for people to understand this?

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Tamina
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Post by Tamina » Sat, 28. Apr 18, 19:11

There seem to be a lot of games that have an Ironman mode and researching it online gives no definit clue to what you are referring to when speaking about savegames. Especially because they are all referring to non-savegame stuff but other game elements. :)

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LittleBird
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Post by LittleBird » Sun, 29. Apr 18, 01:00

Tamina wrote:There seem to be a lot of games that have an Ironman mode and researching it online gives no definit clue to what you are referring to when speaking about savegames. Especially because they are all referring to non-savegame stuff but other game elements. :)
Nah.
His initial post was:
"I want to option to play an 'ironman' mode or something. I want to be forced to accept defeat or loss of assets (I said option, I am not asking to remove save load for those that want it)."
This makes it very clear what he aims for.
The implementation is tricky. I think you need some kind of fail safe function. X-games are not known for stability. And I doubt that you would accept defeat or loss of assets because of game faults.
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Ketraar
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Post by Ketraar » Wed, 2. May 18, 22:52

Ironman mode is quite popular, I only play Ironman in EU4, combined with achievements its a good way to set goals, it motivates me and also add some tension to the game.

There are several ways to protect the player somewhat, for example you can have multiple saves that save in different intervals, say one every event and another time based. How this is technically feasible I have no clue, but I must say there is little point in having achievements to compare without some sort of restrictions. For those that dont care about them this is, as mentioned, a non problem, they can just go on having their games set to non ironman or modified as we had it in the past.

MFG

Ketraar

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