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JSDD





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PostPosted: Sat, 31. Mar 18, 01:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

in my view thats all just a show, symbolic politics ...

that guy is a traitor, he`s been caught, commited treason to russia (his homeland). in the US, treason can be punished by death. i dont know how it is in russia, but there cant be a more severe punishment (except being tortured, then killed ^^ gitmo?! Rolling EyesVery Happy). i think its just that a guy that has been caught commiting treason gets killed. he had a choice.

what i think is not thought thoroughly through, is that about 1billion people (US + EU + some island shepherds) have to sacrafice in trade/cooperation/diplomacy and so on, just because 1 *sshole gets killed ...

compare that to iran: women sometimes are being hanged to death (from a dredger, crane etc .. what comes in handy) if they commit adultery (or if they`ve been raped). no word about that, trading with saudi arabia is also "business as usual", trading with communists is also acceptable nowadays ... but if a foreign traitor is being killed by his homeland, thats a hole other question, an example has to be stated, just to make a point ...


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Retiredman





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PostPosted: Sat, 31. Mar 18, 01:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The whole deal seems out of place..

He was an ex-KGB agent and why didn't they provide an accident while he was in prison. From December 2004 to July 2010 they had him locked up
to serve a 13 year term.
To use a nerve agent that blatantly points to a country makes no tactical sense when you want the evidence not to implicate your country.

Rican or similar substance could have been used.
A robbery gone bad could have been done.
Why would Putin hold a grudge for 14 years...
Has the Russian clock and dagger got that sloppy in these past twenty years?

Of course I havn't seen all the evidence or facts...


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PostPosted: Sat, 31. Mar 18, 07:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Retiredman wrote:

To use a nerve agent that blatantly points to a country makes no tactical sense when you want the evidence not to implicate your country.


As has already been said in this thread, what makes you think Russia wanted to not be implicated? It's very much in their interests for people who might be considering betraying them to have second thoughts because "They can get me even if I'm living under the protection of another country".

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Observe





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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 02:56    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Retiredman wrote:
The whole deal seems out of place..

I agree. I don't know what to think, but it's pretty serious.

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felter





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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 03:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Putin is trying to start another cold war, he is trying to take things back to when he was a member of the KGB. I have absolutely no idea why he is wanting to do this but that is what everything is pointing to. The poisoning itself is only a small part of the larger picture. A lot of what he has done and is doing doesn't seem to make sense but he is an intelligent man and I'm sure he has a plan and it seems to involve alienating everyone against Russia or maybe it isn't him and there really is a deep state pulling all of our strings.


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Retiredman





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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 07:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

pjknibbs wrote:
Retiredman wrote:

To use a nerve agent that blatantly points to a country makes no tactical sense when you want the evidence not to implicate your country.


As has already been said in this thread, what makes you think Russia wanted to not be implicated? It's very much in their interests for people who might be considering betraying them to have second thoughts because "They can get me even if I'm living under the protection of another country".


But I also included..
Quote:
From December 2004 to July 2010 they had him locked up
to serve a 13 year term.


He could have died while under their control and still put the message out.
Then there was that other Russian who they poison with a nuclear pellet.
That killed the guy...

That nerve agent was produced a few year after the USSR fell. Stopped around 1996. Could it be a third party was involved? Security wasn't as
firm during those years. Plus if they kept that stuff then they would be in violation of some UN treaties they agreed to..
Right now there isn't proof that the Russians did it. Otherwise all hell would break loose with the major players getting back into the
chemical WMD's. (See CWC efffective 1997 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Chemical_Weapons_Convention

I don't trust Putin and wouldn't put it past him. But the way it was delivered was real sloppy. It leads to be really looked at.
And I do believe that the Brits are very good at producing results..
Expelling some Russians was a stopgap measure. Placate the population and send a message to Putin.. We're watching still..


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pjknibbs



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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 08:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Retiredman wrote:

He could have died while under their control and still put the message out.


But it wouldn't have been anything like as powerful a message as "We'll get you wherever you run", which is the message they got. There might also have been an element of Putin testing the resolve of the West since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.

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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 13:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The guy had recently been asking if he could return to Russia he had even directly got in touch with Putin and asked him personally if he could return. You could say he put the cross-hair onto himself.


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JSDD





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PostPosted: Sun, 1. Apr 18, 13:23    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

pjknibbs wrote:
... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.


is there a law that says that this is probibited?
who`s enforcing that law?
is there a world police or such that i`m not aware of? Rolling Eyes

how exactly did they meddle in the election, by influencing public opinion? isnt that what all the news media in the world is doing all the time?


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Morkonan





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PostPosted: Tue, 3. Apr 18, 00:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

JSDD wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:
... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.


is there a law that says that this is probibited?
who`s enforcing that law?
is there a world police or such that i`m not aware of? Rolling Eyes

how exactly did they meddle in the election, by influencing public opinion? isnt that what all the news media in the world is doing all the time?


There are "generally accepted ways" to influence the opinion of another country's citizens when it comes down to a third-party country.

"Lying" is generally discouraged.
"Impersonating someone" is also, generally, discouraged.
There are a great many moral and ethical things that are "discouraged."

The problem is that there are few laws relating to "Social Media" and the general environment of "teh interwebz." So, enforcement of one's values is somewhat difficult.

But, it's not illegal for a country to state its opinion by deciding to enact legislation against another country's interests, is it? "War" is also "not illegal." But, few people like it and most would attempt to act against it.

In the US, at least, the "News Media" and its "freedom" is based upon it acting to inform the public, specifically about what it's elected government is doing. It's fiercely defended for that very purpose - It is supposed to help prevent unobserved tyranny and to inform the public when the government "does something wrong." Or, even, when it "does something right" that may have gone unnoticed.

When the "News Media" purposefully lies, then it weakens its own purpose and protections. Few legitimate news media organizations fail to recognize this and responsibly led organizations take positive action to avoid running afoul of this problem.

There are some, however, that cloak themselves in "honesty" but peddle lies while doing so... endangering the "Free Press" all the while, since they're not concerned with the same mandates that respectful organizations concern themselves with.

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fiksal





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PostPosted: Tue, 3. Apr 18, 00:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

JSDD wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:
... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.


is there a law that says that this is probibited?


The law needs to catch up

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Morkonan





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PostPosted: Tue, 3. Apr 18, 00:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

fiksal wrote:
JSDD wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:
... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.


is there a law that says that this is probibited?


The law needs to catch up


^---- This.

It is, for instance, a sort of "breach of the peace" for one country to "interfere" in the stable governance of another. It calls into question "sovereignty issues" that are, very seriously, possible acts of... war. If one seeks to usurp another country's sovereignty, one is de-facto making a declaration of war, even if one isn't pointing a gun at the other.

International law, on the other hand... Well, I'm not sure, there. But, its certainly ethical grounds for any sorts of non-military reprisals a country wishes to seek in the event that such underhanded efforts are detected and exposed. And, it could even be good cause for one country to declare open hostilities on another, depending how far that other country actually went and how successful they were at undermining that nation's sovereignty.

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fiksal





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PostPosted: Wed, 4. Apr 18, 06:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Morkonan wrote:

It is, for instance, a sort of "breach of the peace" for one country to "interfere" in the stable governance of another. It calls into question "sovereignty issues" that are, very seriously, possible acts of... war. If one seeks to usurp another country's sovereignty, one is de-facto making a declaration of war, even if one isn't pointing a gun at the other.

All things are true, it's very nearly an attack on another country.


I had a weird chat with some Russian guy, who told me, paraphrasing - "if Russia(aka Putin) was trying to save USA from an evil and corrupt politician/regime, shouldn't they have tried to help?"

if that's what they mean by helping, then yes, they should have not

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Morkonan





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PostPosted: Wed, 4. Apr 18, 16:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

fiksal wrote:
...I had a weird chat with some Russian guy, who told me, paraphrasing - "if Russia(aka Putin) was trying to save USA from an evil and corrupt politician/regime, shouldn't they have tried to help?"

if that's what they mean by helping, then yes, they should have not


!!

That's... LOLZ!

"You are making a big mistake, so I will eat this cookie for you so you can't have it and you won't end up with diabeetus..."

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Chips





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PostPosted: Wed, 4. Apr 18, 19:31    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

JSDD wrote:
in my view thats all just a show, symbolic politics ...

that guy is a traitor, he`s been caught, commited treason to russia (his homeland). in the US, treason can be punished by death. i dont know how it is in russia, but there cant be a more severe punishment (except being tortured, then killed ^^ gitmo?! Rolling EyesVery Happy). i think its just that a guy that has been caught commiting treason gets killed. he had a choice.


1) If you're a tyrant, then yes, kill whomever you choose. If you're a democracy with an independent legal and judicial system, then you take the individual, provide the evidence, and convict them in a court of law according to the law of the country. If that's the death sentence, then that's your law.

He was convicted, he served his time for said crime. So this would be "extra" punishment.

Quote:
what i think is not thought thoroughly through, is that about 1billion people (US + EU + some island shepherds) have to sacrafice in trade/cooperation/diplomacy and so on, just because 1 *sshole gets killed ...


Upon what basis is he considered an ahole? He made a judgement call which his country convicted him for making incorrectly according to their laws. He served his time. However, additionally, currently there's no trade sanctions. But at what point do you decide "enough is enough"?

Quote:

compare that to iran: women sometimes are being hanged to death (from a dredger, crane etc .. what comes in handy) if they commit adultery (or if they`ve been raped). no word about that, trading with saudi arabia is also "business as usual", trading with communists is also acceptable nowadays ...


Those countries are allegedly trying people by their judicial systems according to the laws of their sovereign nation. They're also citizens of those countries, for which we have no jurisdiction or say over either. There are reports of executions (though there are so MANY in Iran and Saudi!), but yes, they're not front page news. Why? Because they're not necessarily unusual, or exceptional, do not involve our nationals and are for a country we have no say in the running of. Supposedly we "protest" their treatment and urge them to stop using the death penalty, as do many NGO's. They don't listen, as they believe it's their law and therefore it's all fine.

Quote:

but if a foreign traitor is being killed by his homeland, thats a hole other question, an example has to be stated, just to make a point ...


State's can, by their own laws, try and execute within their own territory. Russia, however, has no legal jurisdiction to execute individuals within the UK. Whether a "traitor" or not... there is no legal jurisdiction.

Furthermore, the Russian constitution requires a trial by jury to assign the death penalty. One assumes this hasn't been done, as to do so would be a pretty large admission of suspicion!

Of course, no presumption it is Russia (yeah, right Very Happy ) - but if there's smoke, and some orange glow - you'd be reasonable to assume fire until proven otherwise. So far the arguments against consist of "doesn't make sense" and what are commonly called conspiracy theories in order to prop up a Government and/or distract from current affairs. If that's the case, then this needs to happen once every 2 weeks - because that's about the duration of interest in the media over and above normal country matters. Russia is upping the ante by expelling yet more UK diplomats to "make it even in number" - safe knowing that if it can be proven it's going to take time.

Most interesting question for everyone is - if it is proven to be Russia, will you believe that or believe that's a cover? For those thinking it is Russia, if it were found not to be Russia, would you be able to "forget" this episode or is it forever going to colour your opinion of Russia/Putin etc.

Given the polar opinions I've read online surrounding this, I think people either believe or not - and it doesn't matter what is found out in the future... they'll always hold that opinion.

Do I believe it was Russia? Yes, because I believe there is good reason for his offing as I've mentioned previously. Will I change my opinion? If they find a guilty party, then yes. If it ends up like nearly all Russian related "mysteries", then no... Russia have become masters of the "deniable", insufficient evidence doesn't mean they're innocent. Just can't pin them as guilty.

In those circumstances it'll be very interesting to see what happens in the political arena. They appear incredibly convinced it is Russia, and that's many countries, not one.


JSDD wrote:
pjknibbs wrote:
... since they didn't seem inclined to do anything about Russia's blatant meddling in the American elections.


is there a law that says that this is probibited?
who`s enforcing that law?
is there a world police or such that i`m not aware of? Rolling Eyes

how exactly did they meddle in the election, by influencing public opinion? isnt that what all the news media in the world is doing all the time?


Yes, there are laws against electoral fraud, but I don't think that's what Russia was accused of with regards to the US - more in its own elections instead.

There are also laws against computer hacking and unauthorised access, which is what they argue was the Russian interference in the US (hacking of Hilary Clinton and other various individuals, before releasing information to the media).

It isn't necessarily whether the steps were illegal and punishable, it is the attempt by a state to influence the other's (supposed free/open) electoral system. Whether you'd think releasing "truthful" information (that proves damaging) is on the same level as fabricating it instead ("fake news") is up to you Razz The media do roughly the same, but of course, providing evidence through the means used is likely to have a greater impact.

Care much? Not really, Governments interfering in others elections has been going on since the dawn of time. But the attributable audacity of doing so by one "major power" to another is very brazen.


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