The Deaf Concert Court Case

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 11:25

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42776454
Now don't get me wrong ,I do believe we should always to some extent cater to disabled needs.However I would argue within reason,this case is not reasonable.
A concert is a distinctly audio based experience,to attend one as a deaf person and then to complain the producers did not provide sufficient provisions for you is Ludicrous.
Reminds me of a vampire in Terry Prattchetts "Feet Of Clay" who tried various jobs in a ecclesiastical supply shop,a pencil factory ect ,then tried to bring charges against his boss when he would inadvertantly get injured/turned to ash.

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 12:47

I thought exactly the same when I read this article. Yes, the law states you have to take all reasonable steps to make the experience as good for a disabled person as it is for someone who can hear, but I think they did that by providing a signer for deaf people at the main concert.

Post by **X2-Illuminatus** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 13:13

People do not only go to concerts to listen to music, they also want to experience a show together with other fans and want to see their favourite artist in person. The interaction between artist and audience is an important part of a concert. Additionally, not all hearing impaired people are completely deaf, they may still be able to hear certain frequencies allowing them to follow some part of the melody. Like everyone else they can feel the bass. The demand to be able to understand the text, too, seems reasonable then. As such I can certainly imagine that deaf people enjoy music concerts, too. And the mother confirms this in the linked article.

After all, reading the article I don't feel like the woman is after some huge compensation, but rather wants to ensure that the legal duties are being properly executed. Which I feel is totally understandable.

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 13:28

I have to disagree.The company should not have to go to and pay for all eventualities.The woman needs to accept that given her disability she will not have the same experience.Should they provide audio descriptions for blind people.Raised platforms for dwarfs?
If this wins in court it will be a slippery slope.

Post by **X2-Illuminatus** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 13:40

What is there to win? The Equality Act 2010 is already in place, and reading the Wikipedia article it just replaces and combines other legal acts, which are much older. This is just about being treated equally, not about having any advantages over anyone. Demanding acceptance in being treated differently from someone for something which they cannot change is really an outdated concept nowadays.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 13:46

Gosnell wrote:I have to disagree.The company should not have to go to and pay for all eventualities.The woman needs to accept that given her disability she will not have the same experience.Should they provide audio descriptions for blind people.Raised platforms for dwarfs?
If this wins in court it will be a slippery slope.

Oh no WORDS! A "platform" so someone could SEE what is going on instead of just the guys in fronts arse?! Terrible terrible things to have to provide for people if required. Awful. Terrible. Such a slope. What is the word coming to that we might have to be inclusive for people to allow everyone to have the best experience possible.

As X2 said, it looks like this is more trying to ensure that requirements are met under the law, not a US style money case. That seems fine. Shall be interesting to see the outcome.

Bishop149 · Post by **Bishop149** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 14:58

X2-Illuminatus wrote:People do not only go to concerts to listen to music, they also want to experience a show together with other fans and want to see their favourite artist in person. The interaction between artist and audience is an important part of a concert. Additionally, not all hearing impaired people are completely deaf, they may still be able to hear certain frequencies allowing them to follow some part of the melody. Like everyone else they can feel the bass. The demand to be able to understand the text, too, seems reasonable then. As such I can certainly imagine that deaf people enjoy music concerts, too. And the mother confirms this in the linked article.

This is all very true, but as I understand the story this was specifically about a translator for the song lyrics . . . and even more specifically for the benefit of those there as chaperones for their children. Which does seem a rather odd thing to pick on a concert for.

felter · Post by **felter** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 15:40

I have to show my support for the deaf person. The promoter was told that deaf people were going to attend the concert and they should have taken provisions for those people. It is their legal duty to do so. It is just the same as an aviation company having to provide access to their plane for wheelchair bound customers.

The argument that as they are deaf they cannot hear the music is mute (no pun intended) I have known a deaf person that enjoyed music, they didn't care so much for the words and they didn't actually listen to the music, they felt the music. Concerts are perfect for deaf people this is due to the sheer volume of the music, they feel the music throughout their body, we don't notice these things as we can hear the music which they can't but that does not mean they cannot enjoy it.

If you honestly think that deaf people cannot enjoy or even participate in music then you need to watch and listen to Mandy Harvey. Notice the speakers and how she uses her feet to feel the music.

Beethoven wrote what is said to be his best work once he had lost all of his hearing.

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 15:49

@ Antilogic, lets approach this logically

.A music concert,is primarily an audio experience,along with the atmosphere of the crowd.Alongside that its a business which has expenditure and profit margins.

If said business is to meet all disabled needs,this will chew into said profits.Which for smaller business/venues could reduce the profits to an extent in which its no longer viable.Note i doubt that was the case here.
Now from the disabled side of things,regardless of how much a disabled person may want equality,the fact is they are in someway on account of their disability at a disadvantage to able bodied people.Logically a deaf person will never have the exact experience at a concert that a person with normal hearing would have.

Would you expect a concert to provide audio description of the antics onstage to a blind person.e.g Now Little Mix is thrusting vigorously in an overt erotic manner,whilst male dancers twirl).Said blind person would require an area in which this could be heard.See the problem?

@Felter,im not saying a deaf person cannot enjoy it,im saying they will never experience it the same way as a person with full hearing.

Disability should always be catered for in a reasonable way.But disabled people need to be reasonable in what they expect.
In regards to the case,i reckon the concert has made a mistake,by providing it for 1 act,it can be proven they should have provided it for all.
It does not make it right though.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 16:01

In regards to the case,i reckon the concert has made a mistake,by providing it for 1 act,it can be proven they should have provided it for all.

That is what is making this case interesting. It will provide something in court as to what is a "reasonable" provision in this sort of situation. That above anything is why this should proceed.

Bishop149 · Post by **Bishop149** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 16:05

Audio descriptions for the blind are always an odd one for me.
I've listen to quite a few of them (both accidentally and deliberately) and they are universally awful, I think if I was blind they would probably detract from rather than enhance the experience of "watching" something.

The main problem is that they go into WAAAAAY to much detail, seemingly trying to explain literally every damn thing that is on screen. Often the bloody description gets in the way of the dialogue. Maybe the blind have an improved ability to listen to two streams of audio information simultaneously but it must be hard bloody work to do so.

I would prefer (admittedly as a non-blind person, trying to put myself in their shoes) a much more cut down version. Simply:
"Alice is talking to Bob in a kitchen"
"Visual exposition showing that Bob is a construction worker"
"A gun fight between Bob and Eve is occurring"
And then let the rest of the dialogue / audio speak for itself.

TBH once the first few scenes are over and the characters have been established I'm sure you could drop the "which characters are involved" bits, as long as they speak then I'm sure a blind person could identify them at least as effectively as I can by looking at them.
Unfortunately I don't know any blind people well enough to discuss this with them, if any are here I'd love to hear your input.

Alee Enn · Post by **Alee Enn** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 16:47

I saw her interviewed today on Victoria Derbyshire program. Here's the gist of what happened ...
* She wanted to attend a Little Mix concert with her daughter (no information if the daughter is deaf/hearing impaired) but the concert promoters/organisers did not provide signing translation.
* She requested they provide signing translation
* The concert promoters/organisers refused her request
* The concert promoters/organisers offered to allow a carer she would have to arrange, to attend the concert with her for free to sign for her. She refused this.
* The concert promoters/organisers offered to refund the cost of the tickets, she refused the refund.
* She wrote a total five letters to them, some of which resulted in the actions above.
* She took the promoters/organisers to court for failing to provide signing translation (which was not advertised), at which point they agreed to provide signing translation.
* She attends the concert and then complains that the signing translation was only for the Little Mix section of the show and not the support acts.

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 16:57

That is unreasonable in my eyes.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 17:10

Gosnell wrote:That is unreasonable in my eyes.

It's always nice how someone who would be completely unaffected by this feels so able to make a judgement call.

Rug · Post by **Rug** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 17:11

Gosnell wrote:That is unreasonable in my eyes.

But, fortunately perhaps, it's not your call.

There is a legal requirement for reasonable steps to be taken, and it seems that a court is the place to decide what is reasonable. At the end of this things should be clearer I hope.

But I can't say that I am impressed by your attitude.

Rug

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 17:11

Surely just having the lyrics on a screen would have sufficed (though probably, in a one off, a heck of a lot easier to have a signer signing rather than lyrics highlighting a la karaoke). After all, that's how most provide reasonably? (e.g. tv, train announcements etc).

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 17:54

@rug,i come from the practical,and logical point of view,not the make everyone happy whatever the cost ,sensibleness of it.
Also i have a bad knee,I enjoy rock climbing,I have never asked my local bouldering centre to make any amenities for me,extra fall mats ,easier routes ect. I realise i will never have the same mobility as the other climbers. Thats not any ones fault,thats just life.
Dont expect the world to pander to you.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 18:24

Gosnell wrote:@rug,i come from the practical,and logical point of view,not the make everyone happy whatever the cost ,sensibleness of it.
Also i have a bad knee,I enjoy rock climbing,I have never asked my local bouldering centre to make any amenities for me,extra fall mats ,easier routes ect. I realise i will never have the same mobility as the other climbers. Thats not any ones fault,thats just life.
Dont expect the world to pander to you.

Ahh the old "I'm miserable so everyone else should be as well" argument.

Not buying it. Everyone has a right to experience the best of life wherever possible and where things can easily be provided to support and improve the situation that should be encouraged. We live in a first world country where the things requested are hardly a crippling taxation.

If they are reasonable requests or not, we now will get an independent viewpoint on. This can only be a good thing for assisting people with making these sorts of decisions in the future.

Gosnell · Post by **Gosnell** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 18:48

@antilogic ,never said i was miserable,i said i get on with my life and make the best of it,not inconvenience others for ludicrous reasons.

Antilogic · Post by **Antilogic** » Wed, 24. Jan 18, 18:58

Gosnell wrote:@antilogic ,never said i was miserable,i said i get on with my life and make the best of it,not inconvenience others for ludicrous reasons.

This isn't inconveniencing others for ludicrous reasons.

I mean, this sort of thing already exists. The cinema is a good example.

Autistic? Good news, there are screens that do autism friendly screenings.

Need audio description? Yep, screenings that will have that.

Mum with a 1 year old but need your Adam Drivers bare chest fix? There's a 9:30AM screening on Wednesday for mums and babies.

This is not inconvenient. This is not ludicrous. This is providing reasonable effort to assist those slightly less fortunate then you can also enjoy it.

What would be good from the concert providers would be "OK, we have 10 shows over the next 2 weeks, this one at this time will have some interpreters and audio description available and etc and etc."

Then everyone knows the deal and reasonable arrangements have been made for those who require it to enjoy the whole show in the same way as everyone else.

Your brand of "toughen up and deal with it" sucks. We live in the future, we can handle things like this with ease. What is holding society back and making life more difficult for everyone is the perception expressed in your posts that because you are different you must not be a bother, you must not get in the way, NORMAL PEOPLE WANT TO DO THINGS BE QUIET.

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The Deaf Concert Court Case

The Deaf Concert Court Case