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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 00:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Laughing

Okay, that was funny.


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Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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kohlrak





Joined: 28 Dec 2017



PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 01:45    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.
Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.


Might be worth pulling off, anyway. Also consider that in some games, simultaneous explosions don't count separately, so spreading them around the station might make more sense. Lemme know how it turns out, as i'm still building my loop.

Timsup2nothin wrote:
lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.
Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.


Key to not having them kick away from the station is being out of the sector when they drop and then getting them detonated without going in. Dropping a bunch while OOS and then triggering the collision algorithm to scatter them randomly about is an interesting and unpleasant concept that I hadn't thought of. Thinking

On the rep hit...I was thinking that the ship that triggers the mines would determine the rep hit, and since my intention was to trigger them with the 'expendable' ship that dropped them that should be zero, or even if somehow they delayed long enough for that ship to get away and then got triggered by the next ship coming to the dock at least it would be less than for blowing up the station. They might track rep for collateral damage as well though.


This could be interesting to pull off. Thank god for monitors. Put it close to the station with a monitor. Leave sector. Drop. Profit.

lyonhaert wrote:
Yeah, I was dropping them IS. I'll have to try positioning the TM very close and then take a fighter OOS before dropping them. The mines that had a rep hit were dropped IS by the ship I was piloting. I don't assume anything different will happen in regard to rep from a remote-operated ship dropping them, even OOS, because the mines were all green anyway but I'll give it a shot tonight. There's a nice group of Paranid about to come through a gate in that experimental save that will make great test subjects.

I'll try a few variations on causing damage, too. Detonating them manually OOS. Activating them and ordering a remote ship to get close to trigger. Activating and waiting for somebody else to trigger them.


They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

Timsup2nothin wrote:
I highly recommend the first tactic I proposed, give a docked ship an order to go somewhere, then immediately eject the mines as soon as the option comes available. That should correlate to the pause between undocking and processing the next step in the orders, so the mines should wind up basically piled alongside the docking clamps, as long as you are out of sector.


Worst case scenario, i could sacrifice a ship. If triggering ship gets the rep loss, I could always try to time it when the ship makes final into the station.

jlehtone wrote:
Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.


This is good news. This is precisely want.

Timsup2nothin wrote:
jlehtone wrote:
Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.


Translation: in X2 working on ways to blow up a factory is like deciding which gun to use to shoot yourself in the foot.


Sektor 21 has the right idea.

Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

EDIT: There's also a pretty interesting factory in Herron's Nebula. Would be a shame if someone lit a match near all that alcohol.

EDIT2: I just realized I'm the reason why the Argon Federation bans alcohol in the next game.

EDIT3: I've read here that SPPs break the economy here, and I think i finally see why. They're the most needed and profitable station. I think the real problem, though, is the trading stations. They keep the price right at 16, so as you start to try to become self-sufficient, you'll end up needing crystals to get the whole works going. What i'm finding is that my ships are buying from the trading stations, whom, in turn, are buying from me. Their SPPs don't need crystals, which keeps the market from being saturated enough to make a profit that way, either, since you pretty much need to start making your own crystals. I'm hoping that once I get this cycle complete (or skip the bogas facts) and everyone's got enough energy to keep from flashing, that we'll net accumulate energy. I have this feeling we won't, though.

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lyonhaert





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 06:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

kohlrak wrote:
They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

SQUASH mines have no friend/foe settings. Once armed, they detonate for anyone's movement. At one point I had ejected a cluster near my TM remotely and armed them. They didn't detonate until I told the TM to jump.

kohlrak wrote:
Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

Figured you were going for something like that.

Anyway, quick rundown of my results from various fiddling with the mines in X3:TC.

Regardless of IS, OSS, manual detonated, or proximity triggered, they will cause rep loss with whoever they hit because they're the source of damage and you're their owner. (Barring cheatyface stuff like using a script to change their owner to someone else.)

The only way I could get a cluster of mines close to an SPP-M (8,000 MJ shields, 400,000 hull) was by laying them nearby and dragging the bloody station to them. But that means I have to be the owner of the station for the tractor beam to work. (How's that stop a tractor beam from working?) Even then, 200 of them should have at least put enough of a dent in the shields that it wouldn't register as 100% anymore. Even a Mosquito missile causes it to flicker to 99% and back to 100%. I think stations are immune to the mines.

I couldn't be able to tell you if their behavior is any different in X2. You could use the script editor to help you experiment, probably.

Since that was anticlimactic, some funny screen shots: These two Ryu who tried to get cozy. I'm not leaving my ships clustered around that gate anymore. And then there's this overkill Ware Delivery mission.

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kohlrak





Joined: 28 Dec 2017



PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 09:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
They have friend-or-foe? Or is that just to keep an eye on your own mines?

SQUASH mines have no friend/foe settings. Once armed, they detonate for anyone's movement. At one point I had ejected a cluster near my TM remotely and armed them. They didn't detonate until I told the TM to jump.

kohlrak wrote:
Destroy the right factories, not all of them. Then as the NPC must buy your product at whatever price you set it, you increase profit margins. Plus, I have a bone to pick with certain stations making it hard for me to make any progress. In particular, the Bofu plants near Getsu Fune.

Figured you were going for something like that.

Anyway, quick rundown of my results from various fiddling with the mines in X3:TC.

Regardless of IS, OSS, manual detonated, or proximity triggered, they will cause rep loss with whoever they hit because they're the source of damage and you're their owner. (Barring cheatyface stuff like using a script to change their owner to someone else.)

The only way I could get a cluster of mines close to an SPP-M (8,000 MJ shields, 400,000 hull) was by laying them nearby and dragging the bloody station to them. But that means I have to be the owner of the station for the tractor beam to work. (How's that stop a tractor beam from working?) Even then, 200 of them should have at least put enough of a dent in the shields that it wouldn't register as 100% anymore. Even a Mosquito missile causes it to flicker to 99% and back to 100%. I think stations are immune to the mines.

I couldn't be able to tell you if their behavior is any different in X2. You could use the script editor to help you experiment, probably.

Since that was anticlimactic, some funny screen shots: These two Ryu who tried to get cozy. I'm not leaving my ships clustered around that gate anymore. And then there's this overkill Ware Delivery mission.


I need that energy. Melenaus' Paradise (east of Getsu Fune) is so starved of energy, it's ridiculous. I'm fixing it up, now, but I can't afford what I need. Good thing i didn't blow up the Bofu plants. What i really need is to take out the SPPs. In between the trading station taking my energy just to resell it back to me (i think i got a fix for that) and the SPPs draining the few crystal coming out, it's a mess. The problem is the Bofu plants are too slow.

How's X3's economy? Will i be less tempted?

On a side note,

Spoiler
I did the Melenaus mission got the top boron rank
Spoiler


and I still don't have security clearance for Kha'ak info. I guess combat level factors in, too, not just race relations (for someone playing X2)?

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lyonhaert





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 15:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

X3:TC and AP there are multiple approaches to improve the barely-working economy. Also, you can set your stations/complexes to not trade with other races. Some folks build huge station complexes to be self-sufficient and/or train up a number of Universal Traders to help the economy out a bit. But after reading Tim's threads on how he uses Commodity Logistics Software Mk2 in networks to entirety dominate transport, I really liked the idea and have been working on that. I think there's a fair amount of control over how you interact with the economy.

So you're going to blow up the SPPs so you can get more of the crystals?

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kohlrak





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 16:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
X3:TC and AP there are multiple approaches to improve the barely-working economy. Also, you can set your stations/complexes to not trade with other races. Some folks build huge station complexes to be self-sufficient and/or train up a number of Universal Traders to help the economy out a bit. But after reading Tim's threads on how he uses Commodity Logistics Software Mk2 in networks to entirety dominate transport, I really liked the idea and have been working on that. I think there's a fair amount of control over how you interact with the economy.


So it's just as broken.

Quote:
So you're going to blow up the SPPs so you can get more of the crystals?
'

Seriously considering it. Just added a few more things to my setup, a few extra freighters, set the entire pipeline up to the SPP to not trade with others. I am running freighters with SDS (essentially, you automatically distribute up to 3 different stations as sellers, and you can set the price, which i set to 0), so i'm not even working with trying to constantly keep each station's budget balanced with their internal mini-economy. Have some extra credits to set up the SMS (automanage prices for me). I think now that I don't have the constant money swapping going that somehow it sped everything below the SPP up. The SPP is not only outputting to all the things that ultimately lead to crystal production, but it's also selling the crystals. Thanks to 1 other station in the area that I own that's still using a trader, the auto-price for the energy cells never goes below 17 credits. Due to the rate the other factories output, i think it might actually work out. I'm gonna let it run while i sleep, and if it, as well as my new wheat farm can output enough credits that I wake up with 2mil or more, and if i check the input supplies and they're all about half way or better, i'll call this loop a success, and i'll post precisely what is working. I think it might only be working right now due to a jumpstart thing I did, so i doubt it'll last 8 hours of 10x SETA. If it does, it'll be the last time i SETA, 'cause I won't need it anymore. I'll just start working on fixing up the freighters so they have more than 1MW shields and then go to town on starting to build sector patrols and start making the universe safe for my empire. Maybe then wipe everyone else out. We'll see once I have enough money.

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lyonhaert





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 18:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

kohlrak wrote:
So it's just as broken.

It's my impression that a limping economy is part of the X games, thus one approach to playing is building a trade empire.

kohlrak wrote:
Maybe then wipe everyone else out. We'll see once I have enough money.
Laughing

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 23:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

X2 NPC stations have ships that buy resources.
The buyers will head for a producer that has most in stock, for it is the cheapest. (A win-win for the buyer.)
However, a NPC Factory that is out of resources will pay maximum price for them.

Consumption rate of Docks and secondary resource is slower than the primary resource usage rate.

The Docks have fixed price. No NPC will ever buy from Docks. How do Docks get wares?
  • Do they pay the average? If yes, then they have lower priority than the desperate Factories that are willing to pay above average. In worst case a Dock will never beat Factory buyers. However, the Docks will consume cheap surplus.
  • What if Dock's ship is willing to pay maximum? If so, then Docks beat all but most desperate Factories. However, they get full easily. The Factories should thus have a "reasonable chance" to get (primary) resources.

Back in 2005 there were threads claiming that Trade Docks (or someone else) do buy from Player Crystal Fabs despite high/max Crystal price, and that Trade Docks were well stocked. IIRC, I did make use of that in 2005, game version 1.4. The 1.5 update were not suppose to do anything but add the "player stats export" feature.

Player ships can buy from Docks.
->
Player Xtal Fab produces Crystals.
NPC Trade Dock buys them at premium.
Player SPP buys Crystals back from the Dock.
==
The price difference is pure profitsss.


X2 NPC economy has (IIRC) overall shortage of ECells, and various local shortages of other wares. These provide clear opportunity for the player to "fill the holes" with player factories.

The SPP are lucrative, even if/after you add Crystal production of your own.

The production time of heavy weaponry is long. The NPC is quicker than the player Forges, but NPC does not have many Forges. M6 is relatively reliable sector patrol, but you will need 125MW shields and gHEPTs for many ships.



X3 economy is different in various ways:
  • NPC Stations do not have ships. They are at the mercy of Free Traders
  • Free Traders select a ware, buy from cheapest nearby source and then sell to best payer. Free Traders roam around. Free Traders are inefficient (essentially Trade Mk3 UT's without jumpdrives and shepherd)
  • There are no real shortages of anything (apart from station stocks not being at "equilibrium" on the start moment, just like the X2 has)
  • Scale: S, M, L, XL. All X2 stations are "S"; x1. M = x2, L = x5, XL = x10. For example, Crystal Fab L has 5 times larger stocks than the S had, and all amounts per cycle are multiplied by 5 too
  • Price range of a ware at secondary resource consumer can be different from what it is at primary consumer. Usually more narrow, i.e. an empty primary consumer offers higher price than an empty secondary consumer. This supposedly guides the Free Traders to the primary consumers to ensure Factory production
  • GoD. NPC Factories disappear and reappear, based on some heuristical "need". You cannot get rid of them for good (but you can have fun "getting close enough")




SDS? CLS Mk1. Kri'Me wrote an original script, SDS. Lucike made the second iteration and renamed it CLS Mk1. If you do let the CLS pilot to "level up", it can deliver to 20 Stations.


Auto-adjusting prices with SMS reduces the advantage the player has: fixed arbitrary prices ensures that every transaction achieves known profit. The adjusting prices trade that with more continuous production.


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kohlrak





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PostPosted: Thu, 18. Jan 18, 03:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
So it's just as broken.

It's my impression that a limping economy is part of the X games, thus one approach to playing is building a trade empire.

kohlrak wrote:
Maybe then wipe everyone else out. We'll see once I have enough money.
Laughing


The way it limps though makes it harder, IMO. The things that are missing the most still cost that first million credits. The missing plants are the most expensive. However, i learned my lesson: instead of fixing up the ships i wanted to keep in preparation for the future, I should've stayed in the bayamon with an IonD and captured the lone orinocos until i had that first million, put a wheat farm in the wall, and manually ran that thing until i could afford a cheap freighter to run it for me. I would've had my M6 before the kha'ak would've shown up. Now i'm flying the lowest grade M3 trying to hide from the Kha'ak, not capturing anything anymore, and using the Jump Drive to jump from one super safe sector to another.


jlehtone wrote:
X2 NPC stations have ships that buy resources.
The buyers will head for a producer that has most in stock, for it is the cheapest. (A win-win for the buyer.)
However, a NPC Factory that is out of resources will pay maximum price for them.

Consumption rate of Docks and secondary resource is slower than the primary resource usage rate.

The Docks have fixed price. No NPC will ever buy from Docks. How do Docks get wares?
  • Do they pay the average? If yes, then they have lower priority than the desperate Factories that are willing to pay above average. In worst case a Dock will never beat Factory buyers. However, the Docks will consume cheap surplus.
  • What if Dock's ship is willing to pay maximum? If so, then Docks beat all but most desperate Factories. However, they get full easily. The Factories should thus have a "reasonable chance" to get (primary) resources.

Back in 2005 there were threads claiming that Trade Docks (or someone else) do buy from Player Crystal Fabs despite high/max Crystal price, and that Trade Docks were well stocked. IIRC, I did make use of that in 2005, game version 1.4. The 1.5 update were not suppose to do anything but add the "player stats export" feature.

Player ships can buy from Docks.
->
Player Xtal Fab produces Crystals.
NPC Trade Dock buys them at premium.
Player SPP buys Crystals back from the Dock.
==
The price difference is pure profitsss.


The problem is, you loose money in the time it takes for you to go buy the crystals back, if your crystal fab is directly beside your SPP, which mine is. Perhaps, it's a little too close, because the sector map shows alot of dancing near my mess.

[quote]X2 NPC economy has (IIRC) overall shortage of ECells, and various local shortages of other wares. These provide clear opportunity for the player to "fill the holes" with player factories.

I feel like you need to already have an opportunity before you can invest. The things that are short always seem to cost a mil: the wheat farm near argon prime, and getsu fune region's need for Bofu Labs.

Quote:
The SPP are lucrative, even if/after you add Crystal production of your own.


My problem is that I started with a silicon mine in getsu fune (i was a few short of the ore mine for the famous roid), which was always running out of power and turning flashy yellow. I could've adjusted the price, but the profit margins were bad to begin with. So, i figured i'd build an SPP. Realized i needed a crystal fab. Then i got smart and decided to look where the problem was, which was only one layer further. Lesson learned: look at the overall economy before grabbing the gold at the end. Instead of filling in the holes, i ended up making a loop that I didn't really need to be a loop. Now i'm semi-competently fixing the loop. I need another Bofu plant, since the BoGas is so plentiful here, and i think i could run 2 off of a single bogas plant (we'll see). I'll probably shut off the SPP so that the factories can re-prime themselves, let it run, and see where i need to add anything, if I do. Surplus with no production is, obviously, OK if it's not too much surplus.

Quote:
The production time of heavy weaponry is long. The NPC is quicker than the player Forges, but NPC does not have many Forges. M6 is relatively reliable sector patrol, but you will need 125MW shields and gHEPTs for many ships.


Yeah, and every time I go to one, it's empty. I think the trading stations double as sinks for the products that they sell.

Quote:
X3 economy is different in various ways:
  • NPC Stations do not have ships. They are at the mercy of Free Traders
  • Free Traders select a ware, buy from cheapest nearby source and then sell to best payer. Free Traders roam around. Free Traders are inefficient (essentially Trade Mk3 UT's without jumpdrives and shepherd)
  • There are no real shortages of anything (apart from station stocks not being at "equilibrium" on the start moment, just like the X2 has)
  • Scale: S, M, L, XL. All X2 stations are "S"; x1. M = x2, L = x5, XL = x10. For example, Crystal Fab L has 5 times larger stocks than the S had, and all amounts per cycle are multiplied by 5 too
  • Price range of a ware at secondary resource consumer can be different from what it is at primary consumer. Usually more narrow, i.e. an empty primary consumer offers higher price than an empty secondary consumer. This supposedly guides the Free Traders to the primary consumers to ensure Factory production


So, more realistic, even if still very unrealistic (stations having their own ships is realistic, because we like having reliable supplies).

Quote:
  • GoD. NPC Factories disappear and reappear, based on some heuristical "need". You cannot get rid of them for good (but you can have fun "getting close enough")


  • So the economy adapts? So if I build an SPP, for example, sucking up all the crystals, the AI will try to compensate by building something that eats crystals and a chain to make crystals? Then if I try to loop, i build something else that it then further adds, making diminishing returns for all stations every time i build?

    Quote:
    SDS? CLS Mk1. Kri'Me wrote an original script, SDS. Lucike made the second iteration and renamed it CLS Mk1. If you do let the CLS pilot to "level up", it can deliver to 20 Stations.


    I wish I could do multiple sources, or a sector trader that basically flows between all my stations looking for needs. It seems more effective for stations to go grab what they need, but letting them have money at all seems to create these nasty situations. I feel i'm just going to get tangled as it is, because I can't really see who's doing what runs to where so i'd have to shut down the freighters for the entire station. This isn't so bad, though, as i just check which freighters a given station owns and shut them down and just figure out what all i want them to go through ,and 2 or 3 freighters with 3 targets max isn't that bad.

    Or is that an X3 exclusive?

    Quote:
    Auto-adjusting prices with SMS reduces the advantage the player has: fixed arbitrary prices ensures that every transaction achieves known profit. The adjusting prices trade that with more continuous production.


    What i want is to constantly sell at the top price they'll actually bite. Since that fluctuates, makes more sense to use SMS if i want to fire and forget, and start building more stations or straight up abstract the chain/loop as a single unit.

    My big plan in that region at this point is to build every weapon plant i'd want (since it has that awesome ore roid, i figure that and silicon are the only things that can't be placed just anywhere). If I know i'm going to want something else, i'll "close" the "battery," build the plants necessary for my IonD, for example, and I'd have a dedicated "production freighter" or two that goes around taking from the battery and the other plants building what i want, then I can shut it off. Another idea I had was to build everyhting I need to build everything, but basically letting them "fill up" but not letting them sell. Basically, everything would eventually stabalize and charge everything, then I take out what i need as i need it (well, have maybe a boron Orca [since i can buy one right there] hold everything i need for my next purchase while i'm making money on another group of factories, then when i buy it, i should have everything i need). Make money somewhere else.

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    lyonhaert





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    PostPosted: Thu, 18. Jan 18, 05:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

    kohlrak wrote:
    jlehtone wrote:
    GoD. NPC Factories disappear and reappear, based on some heuristical "need". You cannot get rid of them for good (but you can have fun "getting close enough")

    So the economy adapts? So if I build an SPP, for example, sucking up all the crystals, the AI will try to compensate by building something that eats crystals and a chain to make crystals? Then if I try to loop, i build something else that it then further adds, making diminishing returns for all stations every time i build?

    Not so much. Each sector still just has it's set stations, but some stations will cease to exist and later exist again at a different position. There are things that will prevent GoD from making a station disappear (having a player-owned ship docked is one), and my understanding is that things like standstill production make it more likely a station will be chosen while steady production (resources being sold without sitting empty long and products being bought without sitting full long) makes it less likely.

    But it also seems pretty random to me. It's seems to me like it just wants to keep the "landscape" of the universe shifting.

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    kohlrak





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    PostPosted: Thu, 18. Jan 18, 08:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

    lyonhaert wrote:
    kohlrak wrote:
    jlehtone wrote:
    GoD. NPC Factories disappear and reappear, based on some heuristical "need". You cannot get rid of them for good (but you can have fun "getting close enough")

    So the economy adapts? So if I build an SPP, for example, sucking up all the crystals, the AI will try to compensate by building something that eats crystals and a chain to make crystals? Then if I try to loop, i build something else that it then further adds, making diminishing returns for all stations every time i build?

    Not so much. Each sector still just has it's set stations, but some stations will cease to exist and later exist again at a different position. There are things that will prevent GoD from making a station disappear (having a player-owned ship docked is one), and my understanding is that things like standstill production make it more likely a station will be chosen while steady production (resources being sold without sitting empty long and products being bought without sitting full long) makes it less likely.

    But it also seems pretty random to me. It's seems to me like it just wants to keep the "landscape" of the universe shifting.


    Sounds like they went too hardcore roguelite. Generally, people like the worlds and universes that are randomly created. I wouldn't like it if it shifted with me. I don't mind randomness and change, but i'd like such things to be reliable. If a station disappears, i want it to be because the Xenon came in and made a mess of things. If a new station appears, I want that to be a new kid on the block. Overly safe and stable sectors should be just that: overly safe and stable, even if that means trying to get started in that sector is unprofitable to me. With X2, i feel like i stumbled into a universe where starvation is a thing no one cares about, because there's little food, and what little food there is ends up going towards producing things other than people with big bellies. There's a certain consistency to that. I'd rather it made more sense, though.

    So far, the paranid and boron types are the people I like. I like split designs and i like catching spaceflies, but I hate them as people. I hate the Argon with a passion as well, for being crooked, underhanded, and backstabbing. The paranid are working on practical solutions for helping their people. The boron are scientifically oriented. Both have their problems, but the argon with their politics and the split with their lack of concern for life and wellbeing I disagree with on fundemental levels. Everyone seems to be apathetic about sentient life (aside from spaceflies for some silly reason). Even the Teladi are growing on me, especially with how they bail: showing that profit isn't really more important in their culture afterall.

    As such, it doesn't surprise me at all that Argon Spacefuel plants are made and sold by the Teladi, including homeworld: not only is it profit, but it shows they respect that not everyone agrees with their rules an regulations, so that if I wanted to build a distillery in pirate space, they're cool with that.

    Seems to me like a large portion of spaceweed banning is for the benefit of Teladi profit, and same with spacefuel with the argonians. The Paranid are concerned with safety: as stated by suggesting that in Paranid space there is talk about making speed limits, so they ban for those reasons. The Split ban the stuff, because it hinders their ability to prove they're better than everyone at everything.

    I can expect that the Paranid will treat me much like the ashlanders in morrowind, who come to respect me the more i respect them and their culture. The split I can expect to always be up my rear end, especially the more successful I get (unless my patrol issue is part of this, I don't expect this to actually be represented in game), and basically be the Morag Tong of X. The Argonians are backstabbing, which seems fair:
    Spoiler
    Julian's genes are the only thing that gave him any merit
    Spoiler
    . They're basically imperials. The Boron are much like the mage's guild: they seem more interested in the end goal than how they got there. As such, the one BBS mission
    Spoiler
    where you cure Princess Menelaus with illegal substances, or rather just help her party
    Spoiler
    having an effect on the racial reputation should come as no surprise. Teladi are the opposite of the Boron: they're way more interested in the journey than the end goal.

    I heard there's alot of melting and mixing of races in one of the future games. I hope when i finally get a new computer that's capable of playing these games properly that the culture remains in these races, or at least that the replacements are more represented.

    Anyway, back on topic, you see these things and their influence on the overall economy makes sense to some degree. The split's desire to show they're superior makes sense then that they don't want anyone just coming in and taking their cool stuff and claiming it as their own. This similar action by the paranid makes sense from the fact that they don't want people of a different culture taking advantage of the things that make their culture great (this is basically the immigration issues that countries like the US and Japan show), especially if that different culture is fundementally incompatible (asians and whites are like the split and paranid respectively in this regard). I was quite shocked that the Boron were actually so accepting (and this is before i met the paranid and split), but then it made sense as time went on. Teladi was much less of a shock to me, with all their stations named after trade and glamor. Naturally, Argon has no trade issues with fellow Argonians. The goners are religious, thus they specialize in religous equipment: revival tools (salvage insurance), jumpdrive (they worship the idea of coming from earth and ultimately returning there, as well as the sacrifice that Gunn様 made?), cargo transfer equipment (never have to leave the safety of their unarmed ships). The pirates giving beginner tips on their BBS even fits character, even if beginners aren't likely to go to them (after scavenging Black Hole Sun for so long, i went to a pirate station and read that this was intentional to help new players get started). Stuff near the Xenon sectors don't seem all that invested (which is where my first mistake with station building began).

    It's good to have a living, breathing universe. But I don't want the universe to be so alive that I feel like i'm dealing with the universe as a whole rather than the locals. The universe of X2 is the sum of it's tiny, intricate parts. Seems very lifeless, but it's not so full of life that it can't develop it's own charm.

    EDIT: And then we have this guy to bring inconsistency to the forefront. Look, if they really follow Gunn様, they should at least take note of the fact that he was a warrior. I find it strange that they don't believe in returning fire. That said, this guy's still in the wrong, since they believe in talking people down.

    I swear, the goner bailing on request must be rare. I'm trying not to lower my friendship with them, but i wouldn't mind a ship or two of theirs later on as an TSM3.

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    jlehtone



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    PostPosted: Thu, 18. Jan 18, 20:36    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

    The only "request" that leads to a bail is hot plasma. Mere spoken communication will always fail. Rangers have been captured (at peril of losing access to exclusive Goner products) to act as extra fuel tanks for M2's.


    You mention Getsu Fune. Lets mention Xenon Migration and Xenon Invasion, for they are semi-related.

    ---------------------------

    The Xenon do have a Shipyard. If Xenon sector suffers casualties, then their SY spawns replacements (sooner of later). Those fresh ships will fly to the sector that needs reinforcements. That is migration.

    The migrating Xenon do not start a fight. However, the local sector defenses tend to pick a bone with the trespassers. Either the Xenon make it through, or the Xenon SY sends a new batch.

    If you are in sector, then the turrets of Xenon capital ships do fire at anything and everything within their range even if the ship itself is simply flying towards the next Gate. Stations could fall.

    ---------------------------

    The Xenon Invasion mission is one of the generic BBS missions. The action happens in sector next to a Xenon sector. The mission can appear on BBS of nearby sectors. The mission appears probably couple times per ingame day.

    When the mission does appear on BBS, it is best to undock quickly, for (IME) the BBS of that Station starts to spawn countles copies of that message, until you do. I don't think that that serious bug has been fixed in X2.

    Once the mission message has spawned on one station, it should be visible on every station of every sector near the sector to be invaded. If you are willing to assist, you can first travel to right place and then accept the mission. The mission message, if not taken, should expire eventually.

    The other, debated "feature" of Xenon Invasion mission is that the reward offered in the mission announcement is tiny compared to what actually drops into your account at the end. (The "tiny" is already a hefty sum, so the actual payment is over the top and then some.)

    ---------------------------

    How do these relate to Getsu Fune? It is an eligible location for Xenon invasion. Furthermore, should some harm come to the fair residents of Xenon 534, the migration must push through GF.

    Fight and Build are both fun, but not necessarily on the same spot, are they? Split


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    kohlrak





    Joined: 28 Dec 2017



    PostPosted: Fri, 19. Jan 18, 03:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

    jlehtone wrote:
    The only "request" that leads to a bail is hot plasma. Mere spoken communication will always fail. Rangers have been captured (at peril of losing access to exclusive Goner products) to act as extra fuel tanks for M2's.


    I've seen alot of topics on how to add goner rep. Everyone wants a goner ship, but not at that cost, basically. The universal answer seems to be spending alot of money at the temples. The hacking missions seem to be another method, though. I hacked the anarchy base a long, long time ago and it's still friendly. I don't know if that's because the pirates don't have a race ranking in X2, or if they are permanent in X2, but I can get in and out just fine.

    Quote:
    You mention Getsu Fune. Lets mention Xenon Migration and Xenon Invasion, for they are semi-related.

    ---------------------------

    The Xenon do have a Shipyard. If Xenon sector suffers casualties, then their SY spawns replacements (sooner of later). Those fresh ships will fly to the sector that needs reinforcements. That is migration.

    The migrating Xenon do not start a fight. However, the local sector defenses tend to pick a bone with the trespassers. Either the Xenon make it through, or the Xenon SY sends a new batch.

    If you are in sector, then the turrets of Xenon capital ships do fire at anything and everything within their range even if the ship itself is simply flying towards the next Gate. Stations could fall.

    ---------------------------

    The Xenon Invasion mission is one of the generic BBS missions. The action happens in sector next to a Xenon sector. The mission can appear on BBS of nearby sectors. The mission appears probably couple times per ingame day.

    When the mission does appear on BBS, it is best to undock quickly, for (IME) the BBS of that Station starts to spawn countles copies of that message, until you do. I don't think that that serious bug has been fixed in X2.

    Once the mission message has spawned on one station, it should be visible on every station of every sector near the sector to be invaded. If you are willing to assist, you can first travel to right place and then accept the mission. The mission message, if not taken, should expire eventually.

    The other, debated "feature" of Xenon Invasion mission is that the reward offered in the mission announcement is tiny compared to what actually drops into your account at the end. (The "tiny" is already a hefty sum, so the actual payment is over the top and then some.)

    ---------------------------

    How do these relate to Getsu Fune? It is an eligible location for Xenon invasion. Furthermore, should some harm come to the fair residents of Xenon 534, the migration must push through GF.

    Fight and Build are both fun, but not necessarily on the same spot, are they? Split


    My plan is to take out the shipyard sector first, when i finally decide to deal with the Xenon. Would be nice to befriend them, but i'm not too sure they're interested. So, i'll take them out with a couple of M2s when i get them built (i figure 2 or 3 should be enough for the AI to do it alone) then leave them there as sector patrol to make sure they never come back. I don't plan on ever doing a mission in Getsu Fune, because of the build. They money may be great, but it's not worth loosing my ship building setup over. I picked the sector because of that roid and the fact there are a bunch of cap ships patrolling it already. Xenon reinforcements would just end up wiping out my entire setup when OOS. i learned that the hard way with the regular flows through black hole sun. Had an M5 set up there to scavenge and it was gone in about 30 seconds, 2 seconds after an L came through. I learned my lesson.

    Speaking of the Xenon, why do they have cockpits if they have no bodies. If they have a body, where does it go when they "bail?" Why do Xenon ships bail if it's just AI? Xenon capping makes so little sense to me from a storyline perspective. Gameplay wise, i understand, but why in the world do they bail?

    I just bought my first M6, only guns are bPSGs since that's all i managed to grab with my wallet. I got a steady 2mil per hour output, now that I fixed the problem with KBB Metal (the super roid): The freighter supplying it was going 3 or 4 sectors to get ECs because they were cheaper, leaving the Ore Mine without ECs while it went back and forth. Really wish you could set prices per faction or something to that effect. Given the 16cr guarantee with trade stations, since the ore mine isn't essential to the battery, I wanted it to play the market to maximize profits. It was a grand decision (while having the EC battery play the market isn't so much, since I want it to be reliable when it's time to plug it in to something).

    Something else i learned the hard way: just because Boron Dolphins have the best cargo per speed ratio doesn't mean they're the ideal freighters. Even when the source is full and the products are free, they don't like to fill all of the way up for some reason. Ideally, your fastest ship that can carry at least 100 units of the load (cargo type being dominant factor) is the best ship for the job. So for ferrying ECs, my dolphins are far from ideal, but they can keep doing it since they can keep up at this point. A few paranid pegasus should be able to do the longer distance runs better, so I may supply my mines with ECs with a pegasus at some point in the future.

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