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kohlrak





Joined: 28 Dec 2017



PostPosted: Mon, 15. Jan 18, 18:52    Post subject: Re: Updated Information? Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
One quick question: Why?
Mostly because I could. My thought was to see if it could make a different approach to scanning missions feasible.

I'm still kindof in my "new toy" phase with this game, so I tend to do whatever experiments pop into my head to understand more about how the game works and what can/can't be exploited.


Well, given i can't just use it to turn any ship i want to red by the looks of things, i'm not sure what I could do with it, shy of setting up some pirates to transport things on my behalf until i can come back and get them. You come up with anything?

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lyonhaert





Joined: 26 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Mon, 15. Jan 18, 19:09    Post subject: Re: Updated Information? Reply with quote Print

kohlrak wrote:
lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
One quick question: Why?
Mostly because I could. My thought was to see if it could make a different approach to scanning missions feasible.

I'm still kindof in my "new toy" phase with this game, so I tend to do whatever experiments pop into my head to understand more about how the game works and what can/can't be exploited.


Well, given i can't just use it to turn any ship i want to red by the looks of things, i'm not sure what I could do with it, shy of setting up some pirates to transport things on my behalf until i can come back and get them. You come up with anything?

Nope. Given the usual 10 minute time frame of the scanning missions and the amount of time it took me to successfully entrap one (I missed two times before I succeeded) you'd get 1 or 2 entrapped. Also, I wouldn't trust any NPC, let alone pirates, to not sell the stuff I had them hold. Very Happy

The other problems with the entrapment are:
  1. You get a percentage of the value scanned, so you have to be able to plant enough of a valuable ware on them.
  2. I don't know how consistently you can get that ware back, since it's worth more than what you get from the mission.
  3. You have to hunt through ships, scanning them to see who has a bunch of free space first, and a second scan after you've entrapped them might not count to the mission logic.
So mostly I decided to do just the one part of this to see how difficult the piloting and "aiming" was. And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Mon, 15. Jan 18, 21:03    Post subject: Re: Updated Information? Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.


Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine. Very Happy


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Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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lyonhaert





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. Jan 18, 21:35    Post subject: Re: Updated Information? Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
lyonhaert wrote:
And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.


Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine. Very Happy

I'm going to blow myself up, aren't I? Well, that'll be fun, too.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Mon, 15. Jan 18, 21:42    Post subject: Re: Updated Information? Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote:
lyonhaert wrote:
And unless there's a way to pull the reverse-pickpocket-grenade trick (a la Fallout) on a spaceship, it might not be a useful possibility at all.


Well, there is some variation in the mechanisms, but the reverse-pickpocket-grenade effect can be achieved by doing the 'maneuver in front and drop' that you've been doing, just use a squash mine. Very Happy

I'm going to blow myself up, aren't I? Well, that'll be fun, too.


You may have to perfect a combination of "drop range" and escape velocity...and yeah, in the course of perfecting that you might get blown up a few times.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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kohlrak





Joined: 28 Dec 2017



PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 01:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Given squash minds don't use Friend-or-Foe, I wonder if you could do something like this to make stations go boom without the agro.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 02:01    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

A something to try, dock an expendable ship at the station with a load of squash mines. Give it an order, and as soon as it undocks eject the entire cargo of mines. I'd guess that if you have enough of them it would eliminate the station, and you can hardly be blamed.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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kohlrak





Joined: 28 Dec 2017



PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 08:15    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
A something to try, dock an expendable ship at the station with a load of squash mines. Give it an order, and as soon as it undocks eject the entire cargo of mines. I'd guess that if you have enough of them it would eliminate the station, and you can hardly be blamed.


I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.

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lyonhaert





Joined: 26 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 17:00    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

kohlrak wrote:
I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.
Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 21:32    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyonhaert wrote:
kohlrak wrote:
I don't have anything at the moment, but would be an interesting thing to try, especially if i can figure out how to get the ship out of the blast range. I'm mostly worried about whether or not the squashes do somehow get attributed to you.
Pretty sure the idea is you can't get it out of the blast. "Expendable ship" and so on. Do MORTs follow a "docking lane" into and out of a station in X2? That would keep them from getting away, too.

Tried them out last night a little in X3TC. They don't arm as soon as they're dropped, and the lack of a rep hit may have been a bug that got fixed. Snatched a Gannet and noted my Argon rep (police race) and Yaki rep (in case of friendly fire). Saved right before the first Argon Police Disco entered that sector and tried some variations. Didn't seem to matter whether I manually detonated them or activated and let the ships trigger them, I would lose rep. Same for a Paranid military group that was raiding the Yaki.

Then I scripted some more mines into my TM and maneuvered very close to a station to try and release them, but they all spawned outside of the station's "bubble". Detonation from there didn't even scratch the station's shields. And since stations' shields and hulls are on par with M1/M2 and people use those to clear minefields, you'd need a lot of them. Later I'll see if I can push the spawned mines closer like the "reposition Build Station nav beacon" trick, but I bet they'll just be collected back into my hold.

Can't say if there's a rep hit from mines in X2, though.


Key to not having them kick away from the station is being out of the sector when they drop and then getting them detonated without going in. Dropping a bunch while OOS and then triggering the collision algorithm to scatter them randomly about is an interesting and unpleasant concept that I hadn't thought of. Thinking

On the rep hit...I was thinking that the ship that triggers the mines would determine the rep hit, and since my intention was to trigger them with the 'expendable' ship that dropped them that should be zero, or even if somehow they delayed long enough for that ship to get away and then got triggered by the next ship coming to the dock at least it would be less than for blowing up the station. They might track rep for collateral damage as well though.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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lyonhaert





Joined: 26 Dec 2017
Posts: 49 on topic

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PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 21:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Yeah, I was dropping them IS. I'll have to try positioning the TM very close and then take a fighter OOS before dropping them. The mines that had a rep hit were dropped IS by the ship I was piloting. I don't assume anything different will happen in regard to rep from a remote-operated ship dropping them, even OOS, because the mines were all green anyway but I'll give it a shot tonight. There's a nice group of Paranid about to come through a gate in that experimental save that will make great test subjects.

I'll try a few variations on causing damage, too. Detonating them manually OOS. Activating them and ordering a remote ship to get close to trigger. Activating and waiting for somebody else to trigger them.

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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 23:29    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I highly recommend the first tactic I proposed, give a docked ship an order to go somewhere, then immediately eject the mines as soon as the option comes available. That should correlate to the pause between undocking and processing the next step in the orders, so the mines should wind up basically piled alongside the docking clamps, as long as you are out of sector.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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jlehtone



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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
Posts: 16955 on topic
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PostPosted: Tue, 16. Jan 18, 23:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.


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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 00:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
Should one remind that there is no GoD in X2?

NPC Factories do not spawn. Docks, SY's, and Pirate Bases do return, but a lost NPC Factory is lost for good in X2. Only the player can build new factories and player does not gain credits by trading with player stations.

The X3's are a different story.


Translation: in X2 working on ways to blow up a factory is like deciding which gun to use to shoot yourself in the foot.


_________________
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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lyonhaert





Joined: 26 Dec 2017
Posts: 49 on topic

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PostPosted: Wed, 17. Jan 18, 00:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Some folks just want to watch the world burn. Laughing

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