Get rid of 'software' wares - add them to the research tree instead please!

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Killjaeden
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Post by Killjaeden » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 13:45

I really dislike the research of common things that already exist. These softwares are used by all the NPC's already.

Why should the player "research" it? That's just silly game logic of nowadays, where access to stuff is arbitrarily locked away until you "research" it. This is totally immersion killing.

No. The ship upgrades (consisting of Software and associated hardware) should be bought. The process could be streamlined so you dont have to sit at an equipment dock for several minutes to equip 20 fighters one by one. There should be the ability to produce the Upgrade package hardware yourself.
Isn't "software as a service" the big thing nowadays instead of actually buying a software?
Yes, but not because users really want it, its because it makes more money from customers and it can be planned for the vendor. It's bloody annoying. Egosoft already said that hiring people will not cost continuous fee. That's why its unlikely (thankfully) that software will not cost a continous fee.
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ZaphodBeeblebrox
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 16:01

Nobody wants Space Flight 365 with access to cloud storage as a subscription service.

That's why most people use Libre Space Flight or even Open Space Flight.

Heck, I don't want my Ship's operating system to display nice pictures of the cosmos that I can click on and "like." It's an operating system for Fawks sake.

Nope subscriptions are not the way to go.
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Post by Tamina » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 16:35

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:Heck, I don't want my Ship's operating system to display nice pictures of the cosmos that I can click on and "like." It's an operating system for Fawks sake.
Why not? Its relaxing and boosts productivity. The Jumpgate 10 OS has a very nice looking and intuitive user interface in general.
Well okay, you have to opt out of a lot of hidden privacy concerning features or your gathered radar information will be tracked and sold but you can turn them off! Besides the installed backdoors for the Argon Intelligence, of course, for your own safety and security.

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Post by Vandragorax » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:14

To elaborate a bit on my original thought.

I'm not suggesting that we should be simply researching a technology and then it's immediately equipped across our whole fleet at zero cost (that seems a little basic for an X game).

I'm suggesting that the initial requirement for upgrading these sort of things for the player faction should start with research. Once that research is done, (whatever that might entail), present the player with options. Allow them a one-off cost to retrofit all existing player-owned assets with the researched technology upgrades.

After that is done, allow them to pick whether they want said upgrade to be included in all new assets going forward, then simply add a one-off software upgrade cost to each ship at point of purchase. If you capture a ship, then simply take it to any shipyard and choose to install all researched upgrades for a one-off cost.

All this talk of subscriptions and crap is making me feel like I'm at work or something (well I am but that's besides the point :P) I think keep it simple, make everything a one-off cost as above. With research being the driver for enhancing and upgrading the player-owned assets.

At least this way we will still see a relative cost incurred when purchasing new or upgrading existing ships, but as someone else mentioned it's not like we buy a new car then have to drive around the city looking for air con, windows, a GPS etc. We just choose what we want at the time of buying, and in the X universe that could be only what's within our remit of what technology we've acquired at that point as a 'corporation', since the player is supposed to be effectively their own corporation in this game.

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Post by Aydan » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:22

While the different ship extensions are debatable, the way to add them, or how they can be obtained in the game, is pretty much unique.

One strength of X1 to X3 was how egosoft was allowing the player to advance in terms of becoming more powerful. Almost every roleplay game is using the same boring process, and this is something you don't see in a X1-3 game. From Fallout 4 to Deus Ex you'll be rewarded with some new gun (gear) or blueprints. If you can't equip it at once, you have to walk over to your workbench to see if you have already grinded enough materials to build the Gun Of The Unforgiving Penguin Of Doom and you just wait until the loading bar has reached its destination.
Or like in more RTS games, you build the science building, assign a hottie in a white coat with some glasses and hit button "Explore the biggest gun in the universe". Great... this is used over and over again. Do we need that in X4? Do you really want to be X4 like any other game? I don't like the direction. Rebirth was the result of the approach of strictly streamlining the gameplay.

Instead of complaining about the lack of "modern" game mechanics, i'd like to see ES building up their game on more unique ways in terms of ingame rules. Instead of the "Build Science block and hit button" mechanic, ES regulated the player advancement by limiting reputation with the given factions. In order to advance you had to PLAY instead of waiting. And ES gave the player the freedom to decide where and how he'd like to advance. Some may call this grind, but it's actually pretty unique amongst the "modern" games. You're limited by reputation, not by the fact that you haven't build the science block, or your scientist hasn't got the right glasses on and must advance to level 4. If ES would follow this path, i'm pretty sure we'd see the dreaded skill and perk tree in X4...

In some sort of way the X games are similar to RPGs. Your ingame avatar is your ship, and you were able to play different roles by changing ships. This was denied in XRebirth, a point which was discussed over and over again, and it wasn't a pleasant ending. If X4 is now offering different ship types, it needs a way to give the player a way to develop. And the way to buy certain kind of wares, including the debatable software updates, after reaching a certain kind of trust from whoever is still creeping through the XVerse would keep the distinction of a X game a lot more then some copied idea to research ware XY.

Also, it opens up several other ways to play the game. Haven't you played X3 as a pirate? Weren't you happy like a kid when you discovered that the last bailed fighter/freighter had a jump drive or Fighting Software MKII still on board? Would it be more exciting if regardless which way you're playing to have a workbench in the back of your ship where you'd simply research the jump drive?

For those who want to have all the software extensions and a glaring new Mercedes right from the start, just open up the cat/dat and drop the whole software part into the inbuild ship equipment. *shrug*

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Post by gbjbaanb » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:34

Shade-RHB wrote: Having to individually equip hundreds if not thousands of ships with basic command functionality is tedious and highly illogical. It's not like command options are a physical item that needs to be on a ship, it's software, basic operating systems that would logically be default loadouts on all ships if you have the technology to do so.

Have to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun. So removing tedious busy work and enabling high level gaming decisions like tactics and planning, is where the fun is. Not installing basic software on thousands of ships. That's no fun for anyone. O_o
You can assume the "software" upgrades included much hardware too - like if I bought some self-driving software for my car, it wouldn't become self-driving until I took it to the shop and had all the control mechanisms, sensors and wiring put in too.

So a software upgrade should really be described as a ship upgrade feature, and should be purchasable like any other ware, assuming you have the ability to install it yourself.

Putting these into research so you get them magically doesn't sound like a better option, though I am definitely with you on not having to trawl along to find the only shipyard that sells them. I would be happier if they were upgrade options you got via research or bought via blueprints that then could be applied to any ship you owned if you had the raw materials (or just credits) and a equipment dock/shipyard/repair station to install them. But a magic "you now get this for free" because you've unlocked the research tree, isn't what I think would suit X4.

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Post by Vandragorax » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:37

Aydan wrote:[some stuff...]

For those who want to have all the software extensions and a glaring new Mercedes right from the start, just open up the cat/dat and drop the whole software part into the inbuild ship equipment. *shrug*

I think you might have entirely missed the point of my thread lol

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Post by Aydan » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:50

Would you like to tell me where i went wrong?

Your request was to have trade, fight, scan and dock abilities on all ships as soon as you have researched them right from the start.... and i may add lol.

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Post by Killjaeden » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 20:26

BlackDemon wrote:I'm suggesting that the initial requirement for upgrading these sort of things for the player faction should start with research.
The "player faction" on most game start would propably consist of 1 or 2 people. Do you want to say that before you can get upgrades to any of your ships you have to become a corporation with a research division? I'm sorry but this whole research thing is just silly in every case. There is nothing to research there. These are common and run of the mill upgrades. Why would i have to research it? And why would researching it give me the upgrades to all my ships?

Cut the silly research thing and make ship upgrade packages producable like any other ware. Problem solved.

Overpowered devices that are one of a kind i can understand if there is "research" required, but the research should be by some larger entity (research lab or organisation). Not the bloody player and some "rogue einstein" in a garage all by their lonesome.
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Sun, 14. Jan 18, 07:49

Yeah, got to be careful of people that start things in garages.

You know, people like Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak.
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Post by Vandragorax » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 19:09

Aydan wrote:Would you like to tell me where i went wrong?

Your request was to have trade, fight, scan and dock abilities on all ships as soon as you have researched them right from the start.... and i may add lol.
You seem to think that I'm advocating making a new game, setting some research going, coming back an hour later then being able to suddenly have all the best equipment in the game, which is quite frankly insulting. I believe that just because you don't have the capacity to use your imagination and a bit of thought behind my ideas, that instead you have to ridicule me in order to try to make it seem completely unfeasible. I don't really understand why you would say something like "right from the start" when clearly I said nothing of the sort.


@Killjaeden - "Cut the silly research thing and make ship upgrade packages producable like any other ware. Problem solved. "

I'm sorry but why is the "research thing" silly? That seems to be a personal opinion that for some reason you dislike the thought of Egosoft adding any new game mechanics to the franchise. I mean you have no basis of comparison and none of us know how this is going to end up in implementation so are you coming to a conclusion that it's "silly" based on anything in particular?

"Overpowered devices that are one of a kind i can understand if there is "research" required, but the research should be by some larger entity (research lab or organisation). Not the bloody player"

Nobody ever suggested the player (lone entity) should be researching this, like on a table in the back of their ship or something? I have always understood that we are going to have some kind of VERY LARGE player HQ building which is going to contain the ability to have some sort of research lab in it - as that's what Egosoft have said they plan to do with Teleportation. I was simply thinking that software could be tied into this somehow and reward the player for time and resources spent doing certain tasks for the research lab in order to achieve a stronger fleet by outfitting ships with stronger softwares without having to fly halfway across the known galaxy just to get to that one station where they sell a jump drive like in X3.

Sheesh it feels like nobody even understood my original post and is just twisting this into whatever stupidity they can think of on the spot then ridiculing it lol

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Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 19:56

@ all: Keep this debate civil and impersonal please.

It is best not to throw in terms such as 'silly', 'insulting', 'ridicule' or 'stupidity' where opinions expressed in posts differ. That is often the way with debate of strong opinions and/or through misunderstandings of posts; such apparent disagreements should not be taken personally nor compounded with overreaction.

Having made this caution, further personal comments will be dealt with and may possibly result in the thread being locked.
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Post by riky rice » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 20:01

BlackDemon wrote:I was simply thinking that software could be tied into this somehow and reward the player for time and resources spent doing certain tasks for the research lab in order to achieve a stronger fleet by outfitting ships with stronger softwares without having to fly halfway across the known galaxy just to get to that one station where they sell a jump drive like in X3.
That is a fair point
Also the fact that at some point the player will have billions Cr, dozens of stations, and could not produce advanced weapons by himself?! Come on! Talking about realism :roll:

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 20:08

I thought stations now had a work-force.

So I would expect my HQ to require a work-force too. So it would not be just me and a single mad boffin with his hair standing on end, I would have an entire research team.
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Post by riky rice » Mon, 15. Jan 18, 20:13

ZaphodBeeblebrox wrote:So it would not be just me and a single mad boffin with his hair standing on end, I would have an entire research team.
That is obvious, as long as you need them :roll: And when they get fired they will become Yaki :P

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