Get rid of 'software' wares - add them to the research tree instead please!

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Vandragorax
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Post by Vandragorax » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 13:39

PowerPC603 wrote:About equipping ships automatically:
They could make it so that your shipyard and the storage modules can store ANYTHING, even equipment like a docking computer, trading extension, fight software and such things.
They simply need to make those things as tradeable items so your ships could go out and get some from the NPC stations and bring them to your shipyard so it's always fully stocked on them.

Or even some station module so you can make them yourself.
Then you can simply attach that module to your shipyard and it keeps itself stocked at all times.

I absolutely hated the fact that in earlier games, you always had to buy them from npc's but you cannot make them yourself, or even stockpile them.

For every ship you wanted to outfit with a jumpdrive, every ship had to fly through countless sectors to go and buy a jumpdrive at the Goner Temple or the HQ below Argon Prime IIRC.
Because some stuff was only sold at a few places in the entire universe.

And for limited stuff at npc stations, you had to wait until they magically reappear in stock (they don't get produced somewhere but just spawn) so you can buy more of them.

Let us produce them ourselves and make them as a ware so they can be transported to another station to stockpile them for later use.
Actually I disagree with this. I'd rather see upgrades like that not be ship-specific but player-faction specific. With the addition of the research coming in X4 I feel a prime use case for this would be letting us research things like docking computer, trade extensions etc. and have that apply to our entire faction from there on. Doesn't matter what ship we fly in then, we've got that upgrade for our faction. And this is irrelevant now for jump drives, but could also be applied to the new super-fast travel impulse engine thingy, as well as the teleportation.

Get rid of these things as "wares" all together please Egosoft, and add them to the research tree :)

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Vandragorax
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Get rid of 'software' wares - add them to the research tree instead please!

Post by Vandragorax » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 13:45

Taking an idea from another thread as I think it got lost in there,

<Relevant bit of that thread merged now as there were 2 ongoing active discussions of the same thing. Alan Phipps>

but can we please see the disappearance of things like:

Trade computer software Mk(x)
Targeting computer
Docking computer
Scanners Mk(x)
etc.

and all the other device type items from stations/NPCs?

Get rid of these from the game world, and please ADD THEM TO THE RESEARCH TECH TREE!

Once researched in our R&D lab/HQ or whatever you want to call it, then said upgrade will be applied automatically across our whole player-faction for the rest of the game. No matter what ship we fly in, new ships we buy, etc.

I believe you are already planning on doing this with Teleportation, so please do this with other things like those listed above.

This would get rid of these items from the game economy (because they were always an odd type of item that couldn't be produced anyway) and reduce the clutter of ship systems we had to fly all over the known galaxy to acquire when we bought a new ship. (Prime example in X3 was waiting for ships to fly to one of only 2 sectors to buy themselves a jump drive).

These items are perfect for a 'research' type sub-feature in the game and persistent upgrades for the player no matter where they are or what ship they are in is a great gameplay enhancement which rewards the player for their efforts and makes them feel increasingly more powerful as they progress (not going backwards when buying an exciting new ship, then realising it's crap and you have to upgrade it all over again before you can get going).

I hope this is how the HQ & research will be enhancing the series going into X4!

Cheers.

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To elaborate a bit on my original thought. 

I'm not suggesting that we should be simply researching a technology and then it's immediately equipped across our whole fleet at zero cost (that seems a little basic for an X game). 

I'm suggesting that the initial requirement for upgrading these sort of things for the player faction should start with research. Once that research is done, (whatever that might entail), present the player with options. Allow them a one-off cost to retrofit all existing player-owned assets with the researched technology upgrades. 

After that is done, allow them to pick whether they want said upgrade to be included in all new assets going forward, then simply add a one-off software upgrade cost to each ship at point of purchase. If you capture a ship, then simply take it to any shipyard and choose to install all researched upgrades for a one-off cost. 

All this talk of subscriptions and crap is making me feel like I'm at work or something (well I am but that's besides the point  Razz) I think keep it simple, make everything a one-off cost as above. With research being the driver for enhancing and upgrading the player-owned assets. 

At least this way we will still see a relative cost incurred when purchasing new or upgrading existing ships, but as someone else mentioned it's not like we buy a new car then have to drive around the city looking for air con, windows, a GPS etc. We just choose what we want at the time of buying, and in the X universe that could be only what's within our remit of what technology we've acquired at that point as a 'corporation', since the player is supposed to be effectively their own corporation in this game.
Last edited by Vandragorax on Fri, 12. Jan 18, 17:43, edited 1 time in total.

adeine
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Post by adeine » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 14:41

It doesn't make a lot of sense to research things that are available and widely used.

Not to mention it takes away from customisation/ship equipment quite heavily in the early game, where you might be saving up to buy those enhancements or exploring for new ones. You'd basically be left SOL until you unlocked your headquarters, instead of being able to kit out your ships and add new functionality with the money you make and things you find, which is a big part of the fun in the early game.

In X3, at least, you can transfer these wares over, so there's no need to start from zero with a new ship. Assuming this is still possible, I don't really see the problem with it?

I agree there should be a way to produce these wares yourself once you get to late game, and making outfitting fleets with standard layouts easier is a plus as well. However, this doesn't strike me as the most beneficial way to do so.

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Gazz
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Post by Gazz » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 14:59

Yes and no.

Having to travel to get all the doodads adds value because travel time is a cost factor.

As a long term goal I can see factions selling you the blueprints for "their" technology with a potential way to steal information/parts that allow you to progress your research of a certain item.

If all you do is dump credits into the research machine - that means the developers ran out of time to flesh out the system. ;)
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Post by Shade-RHB » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 15:31

BlackDemon wrote: Actually I disagree with this. I'd rather see upgrades like that not be ship-specific but player-faction specific. With the addition of the research coming in X4 I feel a prime use case for this would be letting us research things like docking computer, trade extensions etc. and have that apply to our entire faction from there on. Doesn't matter what ship we fly in then, we've got that upgrade for our faction. And this is irrelevant now for jump drives, but could also be applied to the new super-fast travel impulse engine thingy, as well as the teleportation.

Get rid of these things as "wares" all together please Egosoft, and add them to the research tree :)
Yeah I'm going to have to side with BlackDemon on this one. Move all software and command options out of being wares at all, and into research.

Having to individually equip hundreds if not thousands of ships with basic command functionality is tedious and highly illogical. It's not like command options are a physical item that needs to be on a ship, it's software, basic operating systems that would logically be default loadouts on all ships if you have the technology to do so.

It would also eliminate any group command incompatibility. If you want to give a patrol command to a block of ships, what if some of them have the patrol software and some of them don't? How would you know which is which without checking them one by one? That would create odd results, things unable to follow group commands you've given, and just in general would be illogical and not any fun.

Have to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun. So removing tedious busy work and enabling high level gaming decisions like tactics and planning, is where the fun is. Not installing basic software on thousands of ships. That's no fun for anyone. O_o

SHADE :)

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Post by Alan Phipps » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 15:59

Hmm, so effectively research would be necessary to gain you the licence keys and competences to use new ship tech softwares that can then be legally applied (or unlocked) fleet-wide. I can see the logic in that for just software but what about any associated hardware elements that have to be installed (since you mention computers and scanners etc)?

How do you pay for the added hardware and fitting costs? Also how and when do they appear on your fleet-wide ships wherever they are? Could it (for example) happen automatically for each ship the next time it docks? A station engineer/mechanic theoretically could upgrade that ship but the station could also charge you an associated cost - unless it is a player station. For smaller ships, they could either dock at a station or at one of your carriers to get it done.

Just musing on the credibility and immersion aspects.
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Post by Shade-RHB » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 19:46

I think BlackDemon was referring strictly to software.

Specifically those things that give new and more advanced command options on ships, like patrol software or explorer software or fleet management software or docking management (a docking 'computer' is really just a set of commands to automatically manage landing, any spaceship would already have a computer, how could it operate without one? It's about it having software to do new things).

Having to individually equip hundreds if not thousands of ships with basic command functionality is tedious and highly illogical. It's not like command options are a physical item that needs to be on a ship, it's software, basic operating systems that would logically be default loadouts on all ships if you have the technology to do so.

It would also eliminate any group command incompatibility. If you want to give a patrol command to a block of ships, what if some of them have the patrol software and some of them don't? How would you know which is which without checking them one by one? That would create odd results, things unable to follow group commands you've given, and just in general would be illogical and not any fun.

Have to remember it's a game, it's supposed to be fun. So removing tedious busy work and enabling high level gaming decisions like tactics and planning, is where the fun is. Not installing basic software on thousands of ships. That's no fun for anyone. O_o

SHADE :)

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Post by Nanook » Thu, 11. Jan 18, 21:13

Targeting computers, docking computers and scanners are not 'software'. The only 'research' I would be comfortable doing for these would be advanced/enhanced versions. Not having a version of them available at the start of the game is a very bad idea, IMO.
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Post by ezra-r » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 00:14

Gazz wrote:Yes and no.

Having to travel to get all the doodads adds value because travel time is a cost factor.

As a long term goal I can see factions selling you the blueprints for "their" technology with a potential way to steal information/parts that allow you to progress your research of a certain item.

If all you do is dump credits into the research machine - that means the developers ran out of time to flesh out the system. ;)
I'm with Gazz here, that's all there is to it.

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Post by PowerPC603 » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 01:53

It is silly when you compare it with buying a new car.

When you buy a new car, you can choose all the available options for your car in the garage where you buy the car. You don't need to drive around the country to find every available option like airbags, GPS, radio with CD player, electric windows, a spoiler, airco, ...

Why do you get a blank ship when you buy it and never have the option to outfit it completely at once?

It's like buying a car without radio, no gps, no airbags, manual windows, no airco and when you leave the garage, you still need to drive for days to get everything fitted.

Or when you buy a new computer, you don't have to browse 10 different websites to find every piece of hardware you need to make a fully functional pc, or go to 10 different stores where one store only sells motherboards, the other only CPU's, the third sells power supplies and fans, the fourth sells the gfx card, ...
The store where you buy the pc sells complete pc's already, or you can buy every component separately in the same shop and you can build your own pc using those items.
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Post by riky rice » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 02:47

Alan Phipps wrote:Also how and when do they appear on your fleet-wide ships wherever they are? Could it (for example) happen automatically for each ship the next time it docks? A station engineer/mechanic theoretically could upgrade that ship but the station could also charge you an associated cost - unless it is a player station. For smaller ships, they could either dock at a station or at one of your carriers to get it done.

Just musing on the credibility and immersion aspects.
Or if you do not want to pay that extra charge from stations of other factions you can product the weapon by yourself and your station could start automatically to transport the upgrades and engineers/mechanics to all your properties based on priority/distance (stations>capital ships>defence turrets>fighters>transporters>scouts. But if a capital is nearer than a station the capital gets the priority)
So we could choose between a loss of money OR time

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 08:29

Maybe there should be a station component called the Software Production Suite.

This can then be attached to any station.

It would provide all of the "basic" software requirements.

Then research would lead to these being upgraded to produce new and higher quality upgrades.

So at the begining the ships start with all of the "necessary" wares but can be enhanced later.

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Post by RainerPrem » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 09:09

Hi,

so there was a reasonable autopilot installed in all my X-spaceships, but I never found the license key to unlock it?

cu
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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 12:00

No the problem is, Google have yet to map the entire universe.

Until their cameras have done this, no AI will be able to pilot properly.

Having recently taken a look at the AI involved in self driving cars and the processing requirements, I am not surprised that Egosoft find it difficult to navigate a 3D space environment.
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Post by Tamina » Fri, 12. Jan 18, 12:17

Isn't "software as a service" the big thing nowadays instead of actually buying a software?
- How about an opt in subscription service with a monthly fee based on the number of your ships?
- And on pirate stations you can one-time-buy pirated versions *cough* *moving at forums rules limit*
- And later on you can research the software by yourself to legally permanently unlock the software. :)

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