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Gimballed weapons, manual aimed only vs auto?
Auto aim, but with option to aim manually if desired (Similar to previous X games)
86%
 86%  [ 75 ]
Auto aim, no option to aim manually
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No auto aim (similar to Star Citizen)
8%
 8%  [ 7 ]
Some other option
5%
 5%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 87

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caleb





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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 18:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
X games always had both options.

Based on XR player weapons already do enough damage gimballed. Nerfing damage on tracking guns would lengthen the PVE experience for most people, potentially making it boring. No one wants that.

Balancing them in an SP game is a waste of resources.

You have V crushers and Meteorites and whatever dumbfire missiles will be in X4. Both technically 1 hit fighters but hard to use/not meant against them. Anything larger that can withstand a barrage is slow as a whale anyway.


Actually balance in a single player game is also quite important. Not as critical as a PVP game, of course, but still important. We should have options that rewards skill, and tactics.

If we have auto-targetted weapons that are really good, and do as much damage as a fixed weapon... Then who would use the fixed weapon? Also, what about the player that is really good at space games, and wants to push the limits of the game? If they have options, it would make the game better for them. Weapons would not have to be 100% balanced, but providing some difference for players that can reward skill/meta gaming is a good thing.

We should have the option for skilled players to get into an M5 with fixed weapons and glass-cannon configs kill an M0 solo... Just because... That would be great for the player base in general.

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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 21:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

caleb wrote:
csaba wrote:
X games always had both options.

Based on XR player weapons already do enough damage gimballed. Nerfing damage on tracking guns would lengthen the PVE experience for most people, potentially making it boring. No one wants that.

Balancing them in an SP game is a waste of resources.

You have V crushers and Meteorites and whatever dumbfire missiles will be in X4. Both technically 1 hit fighters but hard to use/not meant against them. Anything larger that can withstand a barrage is slow as a whale anyway.


Actually balance in a single player game is also quite important. Not as critical as a PVP game, of course, but still important. We should have options that rewards skill, and tactics.

If we have auto-targetted weapons that are really good, and do as much damage as a fixed weapon... Then who would use the fixed weapon? Also, what about the player that is really good at space games, and wants to push the limits of the game? If they have options, it would make the game better for them. Weapons would not have to be 100% balanced, but providing some difference for players that can reward skill/meta gaming is a good thing.

We should have the option for skilled players to get into an M5 with fixed weapons and glass-cannon configs kill an M0 solo... Just because... That would be great for the player base in general.



The main difference in ship to ship combat between ED, SC and the X games that in X you usually fight groups of enemies 5-6 usually at a time up to 20-100 drones at tops while in the other 2 mentioned games 98% of the fights are 1on1s. If we reduce the damage on auto targeting weapons that kill enemies under a second like the inertial hammer, the plasma cannon and the MK3 repeater in Rebirth we will lengthen the battles to oblivion while also increasing the difficulty quite a bit since the AI also autotargets and your shield stops recharging in combat. This leads to frustration and a lot of upset people.

Giving hard hitting fixed weapons to AI is also a nightmare for balance since they pretty much either auto hit with them or miss all the time. Check out what happened with ED about 1,5 years ago when the AI combat was "tweaked", people quit the game over it.

I don't understand your M0 argument. It's already easier to dodge the M0's projectiles than to go for the gazillion surface elements on it and since shields don't recharge anymore the hardest part is to keep strafing for several hours while shooting at a ship the size of a small town. 20% increase in damage will cut the time by half an hour but you will still be shooting at it for days.

Where it actually comes to skill with fixed weapons is only with S maybe faster M sized ships. Where I already pointed out how different is to fight 1 enemy or 5.

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caleb





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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 22:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
caleb wrote:
csaba wrote:
X games always had both options.

Based on XR player weapons already do enough damage gimballed. Nerfing damage on tracking guns would lengthen the PVE experience for most people, potentially making it boring. No one wants that.

Balancing them in an SP game is a waste of resources.

You have V crushers and Meteorites and whatever dumbfire missiles will be in X4. Both technically 1 hit fighters but hard to use/not meant against them. Anything larger that can withstand a barrage is slow as a whale anyway.


Actually balance in a single player game is also quite important. Not as critical as a PVP game, of course, but still important. We should have options that rewards skill, and tactics.

If we have auto-targetted weapons that are really good, and do as much damage as a fixed weapon... Then who would use the fixed weapon? Also, what about the player that is really good at space games, and wants to push the limits of the game? If they have options, it would make the game better for them. Weapons would not have to be 100% balanced, but providing some difference for players that can reward skill/meta gaming is a good thing.

We should have the option for skilled players to get into an M5 with fixed weapons and glass-cannon configs kill an M0 solo... Just because... That would be great for the player base in general.



The main difference in ship to ship combat between ED, SC and the X games that in X you usually fight groups of enemies 5-6 usually at a time up to 20-100 drones at tops while in the other 2 mentioned games 98% of the fights are 1on1s. If we reduce the damage on auto targeting weapons that kill enemies under a second like the inertial hammer, the plasma cannon and the MK3 repeater in Rebirth we will lengthen the battles to oblivion while also increasing the difficulty quite a bit since the AI also autotargets and your shield stops recharging in combat. This leads to frustration and a lot of upset people.

Giving hard hitting fixed weapons to AI is also a nightmare for balance since they pretty much either auto hit with them or miss all the time. Check out what happened with ED about 1,5 years ago when the AI combat was "tweaked", people quit the game over it.

I don't understand your M0 argument. It's already easier to dodge the M0's projectiles than to go for the gazillion surface elements on it and since shields don't recharge anymore the hardest part is to keep strafing for several hours while shooting at a ship the size of a small town. 20% increase in damage will cut the time by half an hour but you will still be shooting at it for days.

Where it actually comes to skill with fixed weapons is only with S maybe faster M sized ships. Where I already pointed out how different is to fight 1 enemy or 5.


That's true, but it also depends on the numbers you give it. I mean, if fixed weapons do 100 damage but you can only hit with then ~20% of the time, then you do 20 damage. If turreted weapons hit for 25 damage, but you hit with them ~80% of the time, you end up with 20 damage... Hum...

Sure, on paper the 100 damage fixed weapons would trump the 25 damage turreted weapons, but in practice, it's very different.

And that's where the skill/tactics would come in. With turret weapons, there is not much to do, they will track and hit (good for low skill players). With fixed weapons, if the player is good, he may be able to hit ~25% of the time, and get a damage boost.

Will that break the game? no. Would it give skilled players something to achieve, and maybe even newbies something to strive for? sure.

It all depends on numbers. Sure, we could bork the numbers, and make the AI hit 100% of the time with fixed weapons breaking the system, but you can also make them hit 20% of the time making the system work. It's all up to the programmer.

I just want options in a game. It is a game after all, and messing up the balance a bit is not too bad either. I would prefer that to having no options, and just a few homogenized totally balanced weapons...

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csaba





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PostPosted: Wed, 20. Dec 17, 23:27    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

In your example you have a weapon that hits for 4 times as much damage or +400%. That is stupid in a game where you have large or slow structures which you can hit 100% of the time. This actually is what dumbfire missiles do in the game but they have a limited ammo or are limited by a(n easily implemented) timer on the AI +travel time. Tweak it a little to 50% hit chance which is about the average for a regular fixed weapon ED player and +200% damage and it is still not suitable for a game like this.

Think how trivial pirating trade ships would be. Again +20/25% works in ED because fights there are 1v1s, last much longer and the shields recharge much slower and there are many countermeasures to gimbaled weapons like chaff and shield cells with different damage types etc. In X4 25% damage wont warrant the use for it and while 200% would by average numbers work, it would break other parts of the game.



Balancing the AI for fixed weapons is also not that easy. Especially since X games AI have very little room for decisions/flight patterns compared to something like ED where they are more dynamic. X fighter AI on an attack run flies in a straight line while ED AI adjusts constantly using FA off on higher difficulty. Of course you can limit weapons to players like mostly in XR (especially in vanilla) but it looks stupid and since this time the player wont have a unique ship it would be even more weird.

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caleb





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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 00:07    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
In your example you have a weapon that hits for 4 times as much damage or +400%. That is stupid in a game where you have large or slow structures which you can hit 100% of the time. This actually is what dumbfire missiles do in the game but they have a limited ammo or are limited by a(n easily implemented) timer on the AI +travel time. Tweak it a little to 50% hit chance which is about the average for a regular fixed weapon ED player and +200% damage and it is still not suitable for a game like this.

Think how trivial pirating trade ships would be. Again +20/25% works in ED because fights there are 1v1s, last much longer and the shields recharge much slower and there are many countermeasures to gimbaled weapons like chaff and shield cells with different damage types etc. In X4 25% damage wont warrant the use for it and while 200% would by average numbers work, it would break other parts of the game.



Balancing the AI for fixed weapons is also not that easy. Especially since X games AI have very little room for decisions/flight patterns compared to something like ED where they are more dynamic. X fighter AI on an attack run flies in a straight line while ED AI adjusts constantly using FA off on higher difficulty. Of course you can limit weapons to players like mostly in XR (especially in vanilla) but it looks stupid and since this time the player wont have a unique ship it would be even more weird.


Those are example numbers, it could be 100 damage on one, 110 on the other. 250 on a weapon that fires 2x slower, 1000 on torps that fire 8x slower. And yes, a fixed weapon with more power would hit harder on slow/immobile targets. Why would you take a turreted weapon to hit an immobile target? You see, it's all about choices, tactics. The skillful commander that prepares for that battle will have an advantage.

You want to hit the fast targets? turreted weapons are probably better, unless you are a hotshot, and can hit that fly on the wall with an arrow. So skill can come into play again.

I don't want a 1-config-fits-all kind of thing. There is not much gaming there. I want the commander that foresees the battle to feel satisfied when his setups are just perfect, and the hotshot pilot to feel great when his skill can make a huge difference. That's kind of what I would like to see.

And it can be done. It's all in the programming. If a ship is hitting 90% of the time, and it should hit 80%, then you can make it "miss" a few hits. That depends how far they want to go with their "AI", but some checks on the AI would help a lot in the long run... If they just make the AI without any modifiable parameters... Well... Yeah... I'm sure you can see how that would end.

It's a game, everything is under control of the programmers. Or it should be at least...

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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 00:50    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

caleb wrote:
csaba wrote:
In your example you have a weapon that hits for 4 times as much damage or +400%. That is stupid in a game where you have large or slow structures which you can hit 100% of the time. This actually is what dumbfire missiles do in the game but they have a limited ammo or are limited by a(n easily implemented) timer on the AI +travel time. Tweak it a little to 50% hit chance which is about the average for a regular fixed weapon ED player and +200% damage and it is still not suitable for a game like this.

Think how trivial pirating trade ships would be. Again +20/25% works in ED because fights there are 1v1s, last much longer and the shields recharge much slower and there are many countermeasures to gimbaled weapons like chaff and shield cells with different damage types etc. In X4 25% damage wont warrant the use for it and while 200% would by average numbers work, it would break other parts of the game.



Balancing the AI for fixed weapons is also not that easy. Especially since X games AI have very little room for decisions/flight patterns compared to something like ED where they are more dynamic. X fighter AI on an attack run flies in a straight line while ED AI adjusts constantly using FA off on higher difficulty. Of course you can limit weapons to players like mostly in XR (especially in vanilla) but it looks stupid and since this time the player wont have a unique ship it would be even more weird.


Those are example numbers, it could be 100 damage on one, 110 on the other. 250 on a weapon that fires 2x slower, 1000 on torps that fire 8x slower. And yes, a fixed weapon with more power would hit harder on slow/immobile targets. Why would you take a turreted weapon to hit an immobile target? You see, it's all about choices, tactics. The skillful commander that prepares for that battle will have an advantage.

You want to hit the fast targets? turreted weapons are probably better, unless you are a hotshot, and can hit that fly on the wall with an arrow. So skill can come into play again.

I don't want a 1-config-fits-all kind of thing. There is not much gaming there. I want the commander that foresees the battle to feel satisfied when his setups are just perfect, and the hotshot pilot to feel great when his skill can make a huge difference. That's kind of what I would like to see.

And it can be done. It's all in the programming. If a ship is hitting 90% of the time, and it should hit 80%, then you can make it "miss" a few hits. That depends how far they want to go with their "AI", but some checks on the AI would help a lot in the long run... If they just make the AI without any modifiable parameters... Well... Yeah... I'm sure you can see how that would end.

It's a game, everything is under control of the programmers. Or it should be at least...


I thought we were talking about DPS I'm sorry. A weapon that fires 2x slowly and do 250 damage is 125 damage in my eyes so only 25% increase which wont warrant the use for it. It would be a niche weapon used on slow moving targets you can hit 100% the time. Against fighters you would just artificially limit yourself since your actual DPS would be around 60 unless you hit 90% of the time but then you might as well use gimballed without the combat software (as you can now) since you'll barely notice a difference.


For the torpedo example we already have them. If you just want to artificially limit yourself then just buy 1000 V Crushers dirt cheap and try to hit fighters with those.

In X you need at least 200% DPS on your fixed weapons to be comparable to gimbaled ones against fast moving targets.
In ED 25% is not an artificial limit since there are many many more layers to space combat. Silent running, chaff, heat weapons heat sinks, shield cells, hull tanking, FA off, reversing (very limited in X), ramming, very different weapon travel times, different damage types, different bonus effects etc etc. These would be awesome if they would get implemented in X4 but I don't see a chance.


"Missing" with fixed weapons is not the same as "missing" with gimbaled ones since you need to physically turn the ship's nose in the direction. Of course you can make them gimbaled for the AI but than we get weird shots from them that are clearly angled while it shouldn't. It would look cheap and people would hate it.

This game is not about dogfighting strategies. Fighter vs fighter in this game boils down to face your enemy and kill it. If you want something that requires more motor skills play ED if you want to build a working empire play X. I'm 99,99% sure this wont be implemented in this game. There is a reason why ED doesn't have a simulated economy and this game doesn't have a complex fight system.

There will be exceptions like I'm pretty sure the Destroyer sized ships main cannons will be fixed but I don't think those would hit anything smaller than an L sized ship outside hitting the lottery jackpot.

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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 01:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
lots of stuff


Those are all sample numbers. They may be matched to whatever the devs want. If 25% extra damage is not enough, make it 30%, 40%, 50%, or whatever is a proper number.

What I want is variety, and skill to make a difference. Whether they are commander skills with setups/tactics, or piloting skills using fixed weapons vs. auto tracking ones.

That's all I want to see. I know X-games are more about economy, and tend to suck at ship fighting (straffing M2s for the win!!), but I would actually like to have a great economy model, and at least a decent ship fighting model.

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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 03:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Skeeter wrote:
Does X games use ballistics?
Why wouldit need to? Gravity isn't simulated & there's no atmospheric combat, so unguided weps are limited purely by shot velocity; guided weps are limited by velocity+range+turn ability. Ballistics doesn't enter into that equation


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PostPosted: Thu, 21. Dec 17, 17:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

And i thought we'd play X to get rid of dogfighting altogether. Laughing
If i'd want to do that i'd play wing commander or ED (both of which have no insane strafing which makes ridiculous fights like Skunk vs Xenon I possible)


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PostPosted: Thu, 4. Jan 18, 17:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

[*] Other
Turreted, gimbaled and fixed guns are 3 different gun items and/or mounts with pros and cons. No UI option/switch necessary.


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Killjaeden





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modified
PostPosted: Thu, 4. Jan 18, 17:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Gazz wrote:
[*] Other
Turreted, gimbaled and fixed guns are 3 different gun items and/or mounts with pros and cons. No UI option/switch necessary.

But 3 different models/ item icons of each, as well as the stations to produce all the different items. Otherwise you are pulling people out of the game why you need a seperate item for gimbal function, when your 'fixed weapon' already has a functioning gimbal modelled into it. An UI switch is the much less time consuming way there.


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PostPosted: Thu, 4. Jan 18, 17:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

It is less time consuming for the player but adds no gameplay value.

Deciding between a weapon that is easier to aim and one that does more damage... well...


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RodentofDoom





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PostPosted: Sat, 6. Jan 18, 01:37    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thrake wrote:
What do you mean by gimballed?


A fixed weapon fires in the same direction the ship it's mounted to is flying in.

A gimballed weapon has small degree of mobility and can fire 'slightly off' the line of attack.

A turretted weapon has full range of motion and can fire independently from the line of attack.



see
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3834/9238483108_46fb2fac61_b.jpg
for an example of a gimball mount (it's inbetween the headlights on the main hull)

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PostPosted: Sat, 6. Jan 18, 05:09    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Personally, I'd like to see weapons that have their own options tied to them.

For instance, not every weapon could be configured to work with the ship's "science-fictiony-AI-assisted-target-tracking-computer-whatsits."

Some weapons, like the Super Awesome Blastem-Shoot-em Mk IV can't be configured to use assisted targeting. Instead, they have to be manually aimed. But, the advantage to using them is clear - More boom boom per boom.

Why?

More customization options for the player to choose from and one that rewards players for attaining skillful proficiency with game mechanics. win/win

For those who prefer auto-aim/aim-assist, they wouldn't be hampered. In a tight situation, though, all things equal, the player who could use a few powerful weapons that couldn't be auto-aimed might have an edge in certain engagements.

It wouldn't be game-breaking, since they wouldn't be that much more powerful, but it'd be enough to reward players who learned how to dogfight well, if that was their thing. A player armed with a ship full of manual-aim Uber-Lazors, blasting enemies out of the sky with ease, at range, would be a "player proud of the game recognizing how skilled they were."

For me, I'm a sort of "push a button, kill everybody" kind of player. I don't mind dogfighting and love fighting in big engagements. But, later in the game, I've got too much going on to waste my time in needless grunt work that I can have someone else do for me.

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PostPosted: Sun, 7. Jan 18, 20:08    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Morkonan wrote:
Personally, I'd like to see weapons that have their own options tied to them.

For instance, not every weapon could be configured to work with the ship's "science-fictiony-AI-assisted-target-tracking-computer-whatsits."

Some weapons, like the Super Awesome Blastem-Shoot-em Mk IV can't be configured to use assisted targeting. Instead, they have to be manually aimed. But, the advantage to using them is clear - More boom boom per boom.


even just for "immersion", the bigger the gun, the more barrel and backing mount is needed, so they're less likely to be moveable. Think the huge capship blasters, they shouldn't be gimballed at all and require the ship to be brought to bear, giving you a reason to mount smaller guns as you can turret them. Maybe even give options like that - not so much mount gun in this turret, but mount this gun in this hardpoint and depending on its size, you can choose to have it gimballed or turreted.

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