Gimballed vs Fixed weapons

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Gimballed weapons, manual aimed only vs auto?

Auto aim, but with option to aim manually if desired (Similar to previous X games)
81
87%
Auto aim, no option to aim manually
0
No votes
No auto aim (similar to Star Citizen)
7
8%
Some other option
5
5%
 
Total votes: 93

Falcrack
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Gimballed vs Fixed weapons

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 14. Dec 17, 16:03

Just as a word of caution, this topic has created a gigantic controversy in the Star Citizen forums, so before Egosoft considers going down this rabbit hole, there are some pertinent issues that ought to be considered.

Star Citizen has fixed and gimballed weapons currently. In order to justify the need for skill, they have made it so that gimballed weapons do not automatically shoot at the target lead indicator. They can be manually aimed though.

The unfortunate side effect of this, however, is to render any other input device than a mouse semi-useless. The mouse can be used to both aim and pilot the ship simultaneously. The joystick or gamepad, however, does not have the fine level of control that a mouse has to accurately place the firing indicator over the target lead indicator. While it is relatively simple for the mouse player to aim the gimballed weapons at the target ship, a joystick player will struggle to accomplish the same task.

As a result, it is far easier to simply fight using a mouse. Joystick players feel that half the weapons in the game and many of the ship types are simply inaccessible to them because they choose to play the game using a joystick and refuse to fly around using a mouse.

What I hope is that X4 will continue the tradition of past X games, where the gimballed weapons will automatically fire towards the target ship as long as you are pointed in the right general direction.

In addition, fixed forward weapons should be considerably more powerful to compensate for their lack of tracking ability.

I hope that if Egosoft is going to have both fixed and gimballed weapons, that they take their inspiration from Elite Dangerous, rather than the current development of Star Citizen. In Elite, the gimballed weapons may be more accurate, but they are less powerful and can also be spoofed by ECM or chaff, so in some cases it may make more sense to fix gimballed weapons forward, or outfit the ship with fixed-only weapons and forego gimballed weapons altogether.

Thrake
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Post by Thrake » Thu, 14. Dec 17, 16:14

What do you mean by gimballed?

linolafett
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Post by linolafett » Thu, 14. Dec 17, 16:29

X4 is a singleplayer game, so auto aim is nothing forbidden as there is no pvp gameplay.
I personally would expect to see the autoaim stay as it is, just a software upgrage and aiming at the lead indicator (when using gimbaled weapons).
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Post by Hector0x » Thu, 14. Dec 17, 16:55

linolafett wrote:X4 is a singleplayer game
This. Why would you ever want to cut options down, that don't cost much development resources???

There could be a cheat console in the game and i would be fine with it. Makes testing and messing around with easier. If you want fixed weapons, just disable tracking (if it is optional like in previous titles)
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Post by Beermachine » Thu, 14. Dec 17, 19:24

As previous said, there should be no controversy whatsoever given that it's a single player game.

As a predominantly mouse user, I absolutely despise any auto aim / mouse acceleration in games (especially FPS), as it takes away both control and the feeling of personal accomplishment / challenge.

Still, I understand it's necessity for controller and joystick users. As long as the option exists to disable all auto aim, and other assist features (like you can disable the ship bubble in XR to allow free flight), then they are good additions as it makes the game more accessible and customisable to each individuals controller device and personal preferences.

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Sandalpocalypse
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Fri, 15. Dec 17, 00:11

hmm, i really like elite dangerous combat, though it does have some problems.

ive always felt the x series does overuse autoaim, it can be fun upping the difficulty by disabling it but things become extremely hard to hit. The speed of ships vs the speed of bullets vs the size of ships conspire to make it seat-of-the-pants shooting very difficult. But ultimately I think it is the lack of downside that makes autoaim uninteresting. As mentioned, in Elite Dangerous you can jam gimbal and turret weapons temporarily to make them less accurate. They are also less accurate to begin with, at least in terms of pinpoint accuracy. Both factors give a sense of counterplay to picking fixed weapons. It also affects the ship configuration metagame and it lets you ameliorate risky flying for a few seconds to get some burst damage in, which is another layer of strategy in dogfights.
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Earth Ultimatum IV.
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Post by Earth Ultimatum IV. » Fri, 15. Dec 17, 11:36

Elite Dangerous system, with turreted/fixed/gimballed weapons. Gimballed autoaim but come with downsides and counters like chaff. Turreted give 360° coverage but less DPS. Fixed guns only shoot forwards, and that's it, but they are immune to chaff and have the highest DPS.

DaMuncha
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Post by DaMuncha » Fri, 15. Dec 17, 15:41

Auto Aim in FPS is just plain cheating, and makes single player FPS games far too easy.

But thousands of years into the future in advanced flying spaceships I would expect nothing less than an onboard targeting system that aims for its self.

Thrake
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Post by Thrake » Fri, 15. Dec 17, 17:28

DaMuncha wrote:Auto Aim in FPS is just plain cheating, and makes single player FPS games far too easy.

But thousands of years into the future in advanced flying spaceships I would expect nothing less than an onboard targeting system that aims for its self.
Thousands of years into the future I expect that ships will not be manned at all. In a sci-fy setting, fun should trump realism anyway, it's still more realistic to manually aim than to cross half the universe in a second through a wormhole.

I personnaly don't play shooting games with auto-aim, I don't understand why would anyone want to, if you don't want to shoot, why are you just even playing a shooting game?

Well, so long as the auto tracking is optional and the system not too dumbed down, I can live with it.

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Post by Rabiator der II. » Fri, 15. Dec 17, 18:17

My idea of a skill rewarding system that does not make gimballed weapons useless:

-Mouse: Freelancer style for the gimballed weapons on fighters, mouse aiming does both aim the guns and steer the ship towards the target.

-Joystick: Something similar, such as steering function like in traditional games and gimballed gun angle proportional to the move of the joystick. That would be an attempt to transfer the Freelancer aiming/steeering concept to the joystick.
To be honest, I have not seen that system anywhere yet and so I'm not sure how well it would work. But worth a try IMHO.
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Post by Falcrack » Sat, 16. Dec 17, 05:47

Rabiator der II. wrote: -Joystick: Something similar, such as steering function like in traditional games and gimballed gun angle proportional to the move of the joystick. That would be an attempt to transfer the Freelancer aiming/steeering concept to the joystick.
To be honest, I have not seen that system anywhere yet and so I'm not sure how well it would work. But worth a try IMHO.
That's what they are trying with Star Citizen, it is a horrible system. Aiming Gimbals with joystick does not work well.

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Post by JSDD » Sat, 16. Dec 17, 15:34

of course, auto aim + optional manually aim, there are things the computer does better than a human, and i dont want to waste my time trying to hit a non-threat-target, while i could invest that time in something more important or meaningful
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Post by Skeeter » Sat, 16. Dec 17, 15:51

Does X games use ballistics?
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Post by caleb » Wed, 20. Dec 17, 18:26

Earth Ultimatum IV. wrote:Elite Dangerous system, with turreted/fixed/gimballed weapons. Gimballed autoaim but come with downsides and counters like chaff. Turreted give 360° coverage but less DPS. Fixed guns only shoot forwards, and that's it, but they are immune to chaff and have the highest DPS.
I'd go for this as well. I think Elite: Dangerous did the weapons pretty well. Constant barrage auto-targeted turret mounted weapons for lower skilled players, but less DPS vs. High DPS, high-skill fixed weapons. And, even a choice in between with gimballed weapons.

Choices are good. And all of those are good for joystick, and mouse.

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Post by csaba » Wed, 20. Dec 17, 18:41

X games always had both options.

Based on XR player weapons already do enough damage gimballed. Nerfing damage on tracking guns would lengthen the PVE experience for most people, potentially making it boring. No one wants that.

Balancing them in an SP game is a waste of resources.

You have V crushers and Meteorites and whatever dumbfire missiles will be in X4. Both technically 1 hit fighters but hard to use/not meant against them. Anything larger that can withstand a barrage is slow as a whale anyway. They are dirt cheap so have fun with those if manual aim is your thing.

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