EnglishGermanFrenchRussianItalianSpanish
Log inRegister
 
I just remembered the stockexchange in AP :D
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Sirrobert





Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 1112 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 14:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
That is why we had magically respawning stations in XR which we cannot have in a dynamic universe X4 promises.


I distinctly remember them making the exact same promise (dynamic economy) for XR


_________________
9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm crazy. The 10th is singing the music from Tetris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
csaba





Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 281 on topic
Location: DunaķjvŠros, HU
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 14:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sirrobert wrote:
csaba wrote:
That is why we had magically respawning stations in XR which we cannot have in a dynamic universe X4 promises.


I distinctly remember them making the exact same promise (dynamic economy) for XR


I recall REAL economy, but that's just maybe me. I was still pissed that ships built jumped into oblivion, replacing the old market black hole with a new one. Cool

Yeah I'm kinda expecting that if a faction takes over a territory it will just rebuild the same stations the previous one had there. Or maybe station boarding will be a thing and that solves a whole lot of problems. Very Happy

Regardless major wars will be crippling for any production so I expect some difference.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sirrobert





Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 1112 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 15:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Albion Prelude actually has a mod that models real wars and sector take-over pretty well.

Mayhem
Wars between established factions are 'clean' wars, with military fleets duking it out while ignoring the stations and economic ships (TS). Those are the price after all.
And when the attacker wins, those stations shift ownership along with the sector.

Only the Xenon, Pirates, Yaki, and Player fights Dirty Wars (or the governments VS any of those factions), where they wipe the sector clean and build fresh.


_________________
9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm crazy. The 10th is singing the music from Tetris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
csaba





Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 281 on topic
Location: DunaķjvŠros, HU
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 20:04    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sirrobert wrote:
Albion Prelude actually has a mod that models real wars and sector take-over pretty well.

Mayhem
Wars between established factions are 'clean' wars, with military fleets duking it out while ignoring the stations and economic ships (TS). Those are the price after all.
And when the attacker wins, those stations shift ownership along with the sector.

Only the Xenon, Pirates, Yaki, and Player fights Dirty Wars (or the governments VS any of those factions), where they wipe the sector clean and build fresh.


This would be okay, however in XR stations had massive defense improvements. I'd like it to be tuned back a bit since a middle sized station could roflstomp a decent sized fleet but removing station weapons completely would seem backwards too me. And if you have well armed stations it would seem weird that they do not partake in a fight.

Not to mention that the main trade ships are TL sized now and some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sirrobert





Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Posts: 1112 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 20:29    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.


That is one of the dumbest design decisions I have ever heard.


_________________
9 out of 10 voices in my head say I'm crazy. The 10th is singing the music from Tetris
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nikola515





Joined: 04 May 2012
Posts: 2850 on topic
Location: DeVries
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 20:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@csaba

Fusion reactors and other high end items are rare from the start so stocks should be naturally high. Even if you do that you wouldn't be making any large quantity of money to begin with. You also risk getting destroyed by those stations as well as rep lost (this should balance it self).

All though I do agree with you 100% and Egosoft should focus on other things. This is one of those thing that would be better as mod.


_________________
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MegaJohnny





Joined: 04 Jun 2008
Posts: 1789 on topic
Location: Manchester, UK
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 20:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
This would be okay, however in XR stations had massive defense improvements. I'd like it to be tuned back a bit since a middle sized station could roflstomp a decent sized fleet but removing station weapons completely would seem backwards too me. And if you have well armed stations it would seem weird that they do not partake in a fight.

Not to mention that the main trade ships are TL sized now and some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.

This is going off on a tangent, but sadly the station defenses also went against their prospects as geometry to dogfight around. I actually thought this was a neat idea from the Rebirth announcements, and in-game fighters do sometimes navigate around them properly. But a fighter lasts a few seconds near an enemy station before being shredded. If they could be restricted to anti-capital weapons to resist attacks, and leave the anti-fighter defense to patrol ships, that would be ideal to me.


_________________
XR mods:
Tactical Map
Improved Object Menu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
csaba





Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 281 on topic
Location: DunaķjvŠros, HU
Thank you for registering your game
modified
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 21:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nikola515 wrote:
@csaba

Fusion reactors and other high end items are rare from the start so stocks should be naturally high. Even if you do that you wouldn't be making any large quantity of money to begin with. You also risk getting destroyed by those stations as well as rep lost (this should balance it self).

All though I do agree with you 100% and Egosoft should focus on other things. This is one of those thing that would be better as mod.


Fusion reactors and Scanners are extremely rare. They more often than not halt production and cause stock overflow with other equipment. Ever tried to sell turrets? The shipyards are so overstocked that most of the time you can only sell for a loss.

This is a problem if a stock market is introduced since it's easy to mess up the prices by buying up the small quantities of these products which leads to a total overflow with the other wares dropping their prices to oblivion. Then you sell all your saved up fusion reactors and as the economy kicks in stocks jump and you make a hefty profit.

Balancing all wares to produce equally in the whole universe is also a giant task.

Of course diversifying consumption so wares's goal is not only ship production would help but that would make it even more complicated.

On the station attack side I meant the intermediate producers and also not directly the station (however if you have the resources it's the best option.) For example Blockading the easily interceptable gas miner ships towards the 2 tech laboratories in XR's Albion would stop the whole economy as the wares made there are needed for almost if not all end products.

While there is no point to it now since ships built in the shipyards just vanish and destroyed ones actually merely respawn after some time, with a stock market in palce it would have serious consequences. And you only had to destroy the engines on those miners.



Last edited by csaba on Sun, 17. Dec 17, 21:42; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nikola515





Joined: 04 May 2012
Posts: 2850 on topic
Location: DeVries
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 21:29    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Good point. Perhaps they should only have stock market on low end goods ? All thought you will still be able to influence them it will be much harder. But than again like Alan was saying it is only single player game and if we wanted money we can easy edit XML files.... Not that is hard to make money in XR to begin with Wink

Edit: Also they need to add more sinks than just shipyards so there wouldn't be too much overflow. Also I'm not sure how would NPC warehouses with unlimited items work with stock exchange ?


_________________
It's not world hunger because we can't feed poor,it's because there will never be enough to feed the rich .....
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
csaba





Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 281 on topic
Location: DunaķjvŠros, HU
Thank you for registering your game
modified
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 22:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MegaJohnny wrote:
csaba wrote:
This would be okay, however in XR stations had massive defense improvements. I'd like it to be tuned back a bit since a middle sized station could roflstomp a decent sized fleet but removing station weapons completely would seem backwards too me. And if you have well armed stations it would seem weird that they do not partake in a fight.

Not to mention that the main trade ships are TL sized now and some like the OL versions would destroy anything under Taranis level warships which was the baseline destroyer (or M2) for XR.

This is going off on a tangent, but sadly the station defenses also went against their prospects as geometry to dogfight around. I actually thought this was a neat idea from the Rebirth announcements, and in-game fighters do sometimes navigate around them properly. But a fighter lasts a few seconds near an enemy station before being shredded. If they could be restricted to anti-capital weapons to resist attacks, and leave the anti-fighter defense to patrol ships, that would be ideal to me.


Also it's way too easy to anger said station with a few missed shots. Which will happen a lot if you are into that geometry fighting thingy.


Nikola515 wrote:

Good point. Perhaps they should only have stock market on low end goods ? All thought you will still be able to influence them it will be much harder. But than again like Alan was saying it is only single player game and if we wanted money we can easy edit XML files.... Not that is hard to make money in XR to begin with Wink

Edit: Also they need to add more sinks than just shipyards so there wouldn't be too much overflow. Also I'm not sure how would NPC warehouses with unlimited items work with stock exchange ?


Meh... with lower end products there isn't enough fluctuation to warrant an exchange for a game. You don't have years like with a real stock to fish for 10% changes.

Just flesh out the economy as much as they can. Since as you said there are plenty of options in XR to get rich which are quite related to the imbalance in the system.

Like I captured a Rahannas once with 300 mil worth of Plasma Jets on it and the only reason it had so much on it is because the shipyards were full. However as the player you could still sell the ship with it's cargo to the Yard for full price.

Edit: More sinks are a must that's my conclusion as well. If I don't forget I put it up for question at the next QA stream!



Last edited by csaba on Mon, 18. Dec 17, 00:19; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
schedarx





Joined: 17 Dec 2016
Posts: 17 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Sun, 17. Dec 17, 23:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I don't need stock exchange. It belongs to to "could have" category. I just need a way to see what is the supply and demand for each resource in star systems and I can make pretty good living with thanks to that information.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spankahontis





Joined: 02 Nov 2010
Posts: 2059 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
modified
PostPosted: Fri, 22. Dec 17, 22:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Skeeter wrote:
I think they aren't making it for x4 as wasn't it too easy to spam money off it as few utube vids showing it as a way to get loads of money.


True, I made billions in a matter of hours with it.

But at the same time, it was totally buggy, local Sector by Sector stock exchange was broken (Don't know if they ever fixed it?).


But at the same time, we've been hearing about how Vulkan will free up allot of resources giving them the ability to implement more features?
At the same time they are saying that the newest X-Game engine could be over-burdened with such a feature? Smells fishy to me.

csaba wrote:


Fusion reactors and Scanners are extremely rare. They more often than not halt production and cause stock overflow with other equipment. Ever tried to sell turrets? The shipyards are so overstocked that most of the time you can only sell for a loss.



A problem that could of been solved if storage capacity for turrets and launchers was lowered drastically, to maintain a steady production cycle?

If modules that manufactured missiles was built on a separate Station to that which manufactured turrets/launchers and shields?

An Equipment Dock that specialised in arming ships rather than clogging up a Shipyards construction cradle for building + Equipping drones, missiles would of taken the strain off Shipyards?

And of course, if NPC a.i.'s actually bought and used these missiles instead of being unlimited and ships with low missile stocks triggering a trip to an equipment dock for rearming?

A Faction at war that wasn't producing enough missiles/torpedoes to fend off enemy attacks would be highly lucrative for a player to fill that gap.

And of course, actual Fleet battles that the Player could take part in via a Mission Bulletin if they join a particular Faction (Acquire a Military license). To provide a REAL resource sink we were promised in Rebirth that materialised only in Storyline Plot Missions and the odd Skirmish in Albion between HoA and PMC; and of course the built Ship spawning and then teleporting into the void.


_________________
There is no.. WaaaHH!!


Last edited by spankahontis on Fri, 22. Dec 17, 22:35; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
csaba





Joined: 26 Aug 2005
Posts: 281 on topic
Location: DunaķjvŠros, HU
Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Fri, 22. Dec 17, 22:33    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:


A Faction at war that wasn't producing enough missiles/torpedoes to fend off enemy attacks would be highly lucrative for a player to fill that gap.


Fully converting NPC ships to built by order didn't work in XR. I doubt it will work here. Ships simply respawned while the ones built in the shipyard jumped into a black hole.

Limited missiles might work only IF there is a way easier option to restock than picking out ships 1 by 1. Capital ships actually had missile stocks that depleted and were a pain to restock. AI faction ships just stopped using them until they died and respawned. AI fighters had unlimited stocks this is what made them somewhat usable by the player after the 4.0 update when they started targeting surface elements.

As mentioned before we need more market sinks that randomly "eat" goods to make a more dynamic economy. A combination of XR and X3 would be nice using Trade Stations, Shipyards and Equipment Docks as well to keep the goods flowing.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spankahontis





Joined: 02 Nov 2010
Posts: 2059 on topic

Thank you for registering your game
PostPosted: Fri, 22. Dec 17, 22:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

csaba wrote:
spankahontis wrote:


A Faction at war that wasn't producing enough missiles/torpedoes to fend off enemy attacks would be highly lucrative for a player to fill that gap.


Fully converting NPC ships to built by order didn't work in XR. I doubt it will work here. Ships simply respawned while the ones built in the shipyard jumped into a black hole.

Limited missiles might work only IF there is a way easier option to restock than picking out ships 1 by 1. Capital ships actually had missile stocks that depleted and were a pain to restock. AI faction ships just stopped using them until they died and respawned. AI fighters had unlimited stocks this is what made them somewhat usable by the player after the 4.0 update when they started targeting surface elements.

As mentioned before we need more market sinks that randomly "eat" goods to make a more dynamic economy. A combination of XR and X3 would be nice using Trade Stations, Shipyards and Equipment Docks as well to keep the goods flowing.



Which is what I'm saying, the problem with both AP and Rebirth was Logistics and the design.

They separated Missile from Turrets/Shields/Launchers etc. and tweaked the resources, build times and storage capacity of Missiles.

Had distribution of Missiles/Drones taken care of by an Equipment Dock, try and have it built in a way that it could serve the maximum amount of ships at a given time.
Devs program the ai to encourage it to make such factories and docks a top priority.
Maybe even encourage enemy ai to take out these munition modules with a high chance ratio of doing so.
Or even have the Xenon cull any factory type that has an over-abundance?
Or Stations that can't shift their wares go on a timer and go bankrupt or rival factions destroy them through espionage?


_________________
There is no.. WaaaHH!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SacremPyrobolum





Joined: 24 Jun 2012



PostPosted: Sun, 31. Dec 17, 13:15    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Sandalpocalypse wrote:
my 2c: It's too open to manipulation. buy stock of a company then source a bunch of goods from it, then sell the stock, then attack the companies transports, then buy stock again and buy a bunch of their goods...et cetera.... you're making money while you're making money, and they'd have to lower the direct rewards of a lot of activities to keep money making balanced with the design goals. Essentially that makes the stock market mandatory.

If you close it off so that it's not open to manipulation, it's just gambling. You don't need a whole stock market feature for gambling.


What you just described sounds utterly amazing. The game is worse off for its loss. You should be able to go full ANCAP on this mother.

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic Reply to topic Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
Control Panel
Login Data
The time now is Fri, 20. Apr 18, 16:46

All times are GMT + 2 Hours


Board Security

Copyright © EGOSOFT 1989-2018
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Template created by Avatar & BurnIt!
Debug: page generation = 0.14038 seconds, sql queries = 29