Brexit

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Chips
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Post by Chips » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 16:49

Pfft, wave your fancy passports around :P Useless I say, useless! They won't change any negative effects for the majority - only your ability to "run away" :twisted:

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Post by RegisterMe » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 16:52

Chips wrote:hey won't change any negative effects for the majority - only your ability to "run away" :twisted:
Yeah I know :( .
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Post by euclid » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:20

Chips wrote: ...... you can't be surprised it's being challenged .....
:o I'm surprised that you got the impression that I'm surprised :P

Cheers Euclid
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Chips
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Post by Chips » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:24

euclid wrote:
Chips wrote: ...... you can't be surprised it's being challenged .....
:o I'm surprised that you got the impression that I'm surprised :P

Cheers Euclid
I'm surprised that you're surprised i'm surprised at your alleged surprisedness...

I think? :gruebel:

I'm surprised, you were surprised, at my surprised, and I thought you were surp... i got it right, right?

yeah. Wait, no, yes, right. Yeah. Think. Whatever. /legit

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Post by Antilogic » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 22:08

RegisterMe wrote:
Chips wrote: glad to hear everyone's Brexit issues are sorted by your passport :P
Nope, my passport too! My mum's Irish so I automatically qualify for an Irish passport.

Sorry for being the spawn of a bloody immigrant :P .
If you move to Ireland can I get your place?

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 18:25

The Tories on Friday: Thanks to Theresa and our crack Brexit team we've managed to secure an agreement that keeps everyone (mostly) happy!!

The Tories all weekend: Look, don't worry, we haven't actually committed to any of it and all the wording can all be spun to be effectively meaningless.

[sigh]

I'm now pretty sure now that Brexit will be entirely decided at the 11th hour in about a years time, with the final deal being either:
- Nothing
or
- Something the EU will easily agree to that is also politically expedient for the Tories at that time.
I think the probability of the two portions of the latter aligning is slim unless the country takes a huge swing in the Pro-EU direction, so I'm thinking it will be probably be nothing.
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Chips
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Post by Chips » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 23:25

I wouldn't worry too much tbh - I am tending to ignore it at present, unless something monumental happens of course.

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Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 23:36

This is one of those things where we literally can't affect the outcome in any meaningful way--there's not going to be another election before the Brexit deadline unless the DUP and Conservatives fall out, and we're sure as heck not invited to the talks in Brussels, so there's very little point worrying about it right now.

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 00:53

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8JW75Lv25k

So, my first year in college, there was a guy from France living in the dormitory, just a few doors down from me. He was not prepared for "'Murican."

We were all enthusiastic, since most of us hadn't encountered a lot of people from other countries and certainly only a few of us had ever met a contemporary from some far-off, distant, land. So, we started instructing him in all things 'Murica.

My duty included helping him take care of the necessities. The first bit was taking him to "Radio Shack" so he could get a power-converter set for his radio and other electronic stuffs. It seems nobody had told him he'd need one.

Next up, and the subject of this post, is that he wanted to be able to drive a car. Well, that's no problem, you just need to have a driver's license.

"Driver's License? But, I have this."

He showed me an oversized wallet-like thing with "papers" in it and a photo ID.

"I can drive anywhere in Europe with this. But, I have to have a "Driver's License" for 'Murica?"

"Yes. Yes, you do. We can try to see if they'll honor that, but different States might have different rules."

"WHAT? You mean every State has their own "rules?" And, I have to take a "test" and pass it? Do I need a different driver's license for them all, then?"

"No, just the one. But, if you move to a different State, you'll need to get one for that State and turn in your old one."

"That's... that's retarded." :)


So, now I'm looking at "Brexit." Surely, UK kids aren't going to grow up like that, alienated from the countries that are "just next door", right? As an outsider, purely 'Murican, I think that Brexit will serve to distance the next generation of UK citizens from their contemporaries across the Channel. And, the next generation? They'll be further removed, should this continue. What decisions will they make as a result? And, what will they not be prepared for and what social and cultural strangeness will they encounter when, before, there was at least a collection of open paths they could take in order to increase their understanding of their neighbors.

Of course, in my opinion, this pleases a great number of people. This move to a type of isolation is what they wanted. But, that's a stage set with their own experience, today. In a couple of generations, what decisions will those people make in a much, much, smaller world?

"Papers, please?"

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Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 01:43

Would anyone be overly arsed for a second referendum once we know the 'deal' we're getting? So that a more informed decision can be made?

I'd gladly take one.
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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 04:38

Stars_InTheirEyes wrote:Would anyone be overly arsed for a second referendum once we know the 'deal' we're getting? So that a more informed decision can be made?

I'd gladly take one.
Would that be the "Are you really, really, sure you want to do this" referendum? :)

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Post by clakclak » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 12:47

Laugh and the world laughs with you,
Weep, and you weep alone;
The good old earth must borrow its mirth,
But has trouble enough of its own.

- Ella Wheeler Wilcox

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Post by CBJ » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 13:37

Morkonan wrote:Surely, UK kids aren't going to grow up like that, alienated from the countries that are "just next door", right? As an outsider, purely 'Murican, I think that Brexit will serve to distance the next generation of UK citizens from their contemporaries across the Channel. And, the next generation? They'll be further removed, should this continue. What decisions will they make as a result? And, what will they not be prepared for and what social and cultural strangeness will they encounter when, before, there was at least a collection of open paths they could take in order to increase their understanding of their neighbors.
The rest of Europe tends to view the UK as quite insular (figuratively as well as literally) anyway, and with some justification. While the younger generation may tend to be more Europe-minded, there is still a reluctance to learn other people's languages (because why bother, everyone speaks English, right?) and perhaps also a feeling of the UK being a "special case". How much effect the changes over the next few years will have on this remains to be seen, but whatever happens it's unlikely to actively improve those attitudes.

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Post by Morkonan » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 21:45

CBJ wrote:The rest of Europe tends to view the UK as quite insular (figuratively as well as literally) anyway, and with some justification. While the younger generation may tend to be more Europe-minded, there is still a reluctance to learn other people's languages (because why bother, everyone speaks English, right?) and perhaps also a feeling of the UK being a "special case". How much effect the changes over the next few years will have on this remains to be seen, but whatever happens it's unlikely to actively improve those attitudes.
(You're lucky - Getting a foot of snow right now, so this will be short, since I have to run to the grocery store. Had no friggin' idea...)


I find this subject very interesting. As a 'Murican, I think we sometimes see "Europe" as being similar to the U.S. as a collection of "States" when Europeans describe being "European." But, of course, all of Europe's sovereign countries have their own cultures, deep histories and languages. But, many Europeans traverse this collage of different "states" freely and easily, often picking up several languages along the way. At the very least, many know enough of several languages to be at least comfortable when in another country. If they don't know the official language, they may at least find a common one that is shared by whoever they're trying to speak to.

It's really undeniable - A shared language allows people to be more comfortable with each other, even if that language isn't their native one.

Human language ability peaks during early-childhood. (This is true across all cultures and languages.) If a child is introduced to multiple languages before the age of 8yrs or so, they'll likely be easily able to speak both. They do, however, tend to gravitate towards a preferred language shortly after that. However, and most importantly, while they can easily forget or lose their familiarity with languages learned as a child (for homes that are not multilingual), they retain an increased ability with learning/using other languages later in life.

In short, before the roads get clogged... Language is "A Very Big Deal ™" when it comes down to human interaction and how we interpret another human being's "alienness." Language is a limiting factor in human interaction that goes far beyond just "cultural" differences.

Europeans, as I understand the practice of being one, live in a region of the world where they are relatively free to travel to other countries where other languages are spoken. Children can be exposed to many other languages and, I would assume, multi-lingual households are much more common than households in the US. (Parents and multi-generational homes with persons who's native languages are different from each other's.)

With Brexit in place and all that naturally evolves from it, multilingual capabilities for UK citizens will surely decrease. For citizens of nations contiguous to Europe, their experience with UK citizens will naturally decrease as well.

All of this just acts to distance peoples who should naturally be a bit closer and more familiar with each other. I don't see how, if one is concerned about future generations and their relationships with each other, anything "good" comes from Brexit.

PS - Someone "refusing" to learn another person's language is commonly interpreted as an "insult." It doesn't matter who or where, native speakers will often take offense if a "foreign" person does not at least demonstrate they're making an effort to learn the native language. BUT, this is much, much, more difficult for someone to do if they have not been exposed to other languages, especially if they had no exposure as children. This is one reason why 'Muricans may find it difficult to pick up other languages, since we're largely language-isolated.

And, by the way, one's ability to learn and speak other languages can also be an indicator of one's intellectual capacity. Does that make Europeans with multilingual capability "smarter" than those who don't have such ability? Well, if Brexit is any indication... yes? :)

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Post by Chips » Tue, 12. Dec 17, 23:57

Morkonan wrote: With Brexit in place and all that naturally evolves from it, multilingual capabilities for UK citizens will surely decrease. For citizens of nations contiguous to Europe, their experience with UK citizens will naturally decrease as well.
Why? Do you actually know anything about the UK's educational system, the numbers of individuals who visit foreign countries for the purpose of language or other? Or are you making assumptions founded on... what you think is reasonable assumptions?

For example, here is a nice representation of the countries that have "visa free travel" (note, travel, not residence).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_poli ... ed_Kingdom

Likewise, where can the Brits go without visa?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_requ ... h_citizens

As for languages, it is basically most EU countries speak English to a high level (exceptions are France, which nearly all I have met do speak but refuse to, and Italy, where they really don't! :D ). The English speak foreign languages moderately badly... it's our forte :D (accent omitted for effect :D ). Indeed, at the height of our EU membership (2004) the compulsory foreign language during 14-16 education was removed. How does that sit?

Is this due to the EU and European Union? Afraid we'd need to see evidence of that - I'd wager it is not really. Most of the EU teaches English as a language, and of course a large proportion of the "popular culture" is English language based; same principle as why some many non EU countries speak English. They're not in the EU after all...

So you may say that, quite rightly, the EU enables free movement of EU citizens within the EU; it does. Non EU citizens? No... although within Schengan you can move without passport afaik (i.e. once admitted to one country, you can move freely between countries). But limited (in duration) free movement from many countries to the UK is enabled (non EU countries inclusive) and same for UK to foreign countries too. So it really starts to boil down to living somewhere else (after all, especially for 18-30 year olds, a lot of countries - including US, Canada, Australia etc) have easy visa's for the youth to get jobs in their countries for 2 years).

So will the experience of the UK / EU decrease? Again, not convinced on this point whatsoever. The ability to travel visa free for 6 months is likely to continue as a minimum, and the outcome may well be free movement as before. However, how many really travel/work outside the UK where it relies upon European membership to achieve this? After all, Norway (non EU, but EEA) has the same rights to work in the UK as a UK person in Norway; same for Switzerland. So I'd say wait and see, but not convinced. Furthermore, I don't believe this is going to "marr" our relationships whatsoever. By and large the French hate the British, and several countries appear to "love" us; I don't think simply because we will leave that suddenly I'd find it harder to either communicate or travel in these countries. The only difference is I probably won't be able to wander over there, buy a house without any issues, and sit waiting to find a job. I may need one to have before i move... but how many really exercise that right? Some will do, obviously, it's not a "no-one does" answer by any stretch :D

So the real difference is the ability to just up sticks and live somewhere else. I'd like that opportunity for sure, though I never took it. Of course, the reality is that post Brexit (even if hard Brexit) I'd likely find it easy to move to another country to live and work, because i'd be classified as "skilled" and have sufficient capital to sail past other requirements. It is sad that others won't have that freedom, but I know very few of my friends moving to Europe; a far greater proportion are emigrating to the US/Canada/Australia and New Zealand... and non seem to struggle to achieve this - and obviously none of those are Europe!

Realistically I'd have moved to France about 5 years ago if the job had let me, and I'd have happily tried most EU countries in similar scenarios. I'd still do the same now to be fair, so Brexit is a PITA from that regard. But... I've not done it... not yet anyway. I guess I was too risk averse to quit a decent job to try find another abroad and get going.

However, New years is going to be spent in France with our UK/FR family friends (literally, like family) and it'll be interesting to see how they view all this. One of their daughters is in the UK at uni, while the other is in French Uni and one is now starting baccalaureate. Husband is French, wife is English(and how we know them). Seeing how they view all this, especially without UK media, will be interesting :) They used to live in the UK about 10 years ago, then moved over to France. I don't think any except the daughter in UK uni (mainly due to UK boyfriend) would want to come back... though the Husband may be willing for job purposes (his job has changed more times in France than the UK, despite French employment laws seemingly making it impossible to fire anyone!) :D

I may appear pro Brexit - totally opposite; voted remain, wish we did. However, I'm also aware that "not much would change" if we stay with Europe as it is/was. Whether we sink or swim is definitely a contentious issue, but we wouldn't be "better off" in Europe, we'd just be the "same". So if risk averse, stay in EU. But if you're definitely not risk averse, I can understand the desire to try outside and hopefully propser. Do I agree? No... but I love Europe :D Though massively sceptical of the hugely cumbersome EU; it needs reform and no-one has the balls to do anything.

Will Brexit affect me? The economic downturn hasn't affected me, so sceptical I'll feel anything from Brexit either. I'm very fortunate job wise... and if it does, it's not difficult for me to skip out the country either. I just feel for the poor buggers who may be adversely affected without any ability to do anything other than suffer it. That's not their fault...

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