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Sorkvild



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PostPosted: Tue, 21. Nov 17, 15:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Planets? And what do you expects to find on them? A procedurally generated landscape and tedious grind for some resources, yet another No Man's Sky. Meh...
Keep in mind Egosoft is a small studio and doing this planetary stuff is like making an another game inside a game - technology got more complex and this ain't no living world with planets that could squeeze on a single diskette like Dave Braben did with Elite II Smile Better to focus on a single aspect and have well designed and developed orbit oriented game.

Nevertheless I'd agree on planets in case where you could dock your ship onto a shuttle that can take to planetary port (with descent animation showing the surface) and while there you can trade, hire people, find new opportunities, walk, etc all on limited space - port area only but with visible planet features like atmosphere, port surroundings and landscape.
For example during X2 plot player had to travel to the Boron homeland in search of answers. All was taking place in an animation but was pretty cool with unique views of underwater infrastructure.


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spankahontis





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PostPosted: Sat, 25. Nov 17, 02:58    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Skeeter wrote:
Shame as in elite they have unpopulated planetoid bodies like a moon or large asteroid I'd imagine where you can land and play about with buggies and probably as not played in ages set up mining stations. It would be nice if egosoft at least did that instead of proper planet landings with their own ecosystem for wares etc. Ud think they would do by now in 2017. If xrebirth did so well as Bernd said they surely could expand the team by now to do more new stuff and also get fresh ideas.



They used the reason that, "Procedurally Generated Planets are boring.".
Planets as background pictures, window dressing, to me is boring, personally.

I understand that creating a Planet from scratch is more aesthetically pleasing to the Eyes than something that is cookie cut "Looks familiar to the last lake, tree, mountain I saw" type of generated World, don't argue that.

But if a useless company like Hello Games can make a Planet and with a smaller team? Then why is it soo hard for Egosoft to bring a few Planets into the X Universe to Land on, to build mining stations on?

Hell, even a huge Asteroid like the Badlands to build a mining colony on with asteroids that size scattered across the Universe would be an improvement??

Sorkvild wrote:
Planets? And what do you expects to find on them? A procedurally generated landscape and tedious grind for some resources, yet another No Man's Sky. Meh...


I would expect to find a World where it is rich in mineral deposits, build a huge colony, preferably one like the metal refinery station in space with ships landing on and off it like you would in space.
Areas where there is agriculture, build a farm there.

It's a game that exploits resources in a Free Market Capitalist Universe and you're telling me that corporations are afraid of Planets???
Goes completely against immersion.

The resource grinding, animal documenting, that's all No Man's Sky.
Why can't we have the trade mechanics of the X Universe on a Planet?
What you do on No Man's Sky is a completely different thing to an X Game that nobody is asking for here.

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lyubarskiy





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PostPosted: Fri, 1. Dec 17, 19:25    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:
Skeeter wrote:
Shame as in elite they have unpopulated planetoid bodies like a moon or large asteroid I'd imagine where you can land and play about with buggies and probably as not played in ages set up mining stations. It would be nice if egosoft at least did that instead of proper planet landings with their own ecosystem for wares etc. Ud think they would do by now in 2017. If xrebirth did so well as Bernd said they surely could expand the team by now to do more new stuff and also get fresh ideas.



They used the reason that, "Procedurally Generated Planets are boring.".
Planets as background pictures, window dressing, to me is boring, personally.

I understand that creating a Planet from scratch is more aesthetically pleasing to the Eyes than something that is cookie cut "Looks familiar to the last lake, tree, mountain I saw" type of generated World, don't argue that.

But if a useless company like Hello Games can make a Planet and with a smaller team? Then why is it soo hard for Egosoft to bring a few Planets into the X Universe to Land on, to build mining stations on?

Hell, even a huge Asteroid like the Badlands to build a mining colony on with asteroids that size scattered across the Universe would be an improvement??

Sorkvild wrote:
Planets? And what do you expects to find on them? A procedurally generated landscape and tedious grind for some resources, yet another No Man's Sky. Meh...


I would expect to find a World where it is rich in mineral deposits, build a huge colony, preferably one like the metal refinery station in space with ships landing on and off it like you would in space.
Areas where there is agriculture, build a farm there.

It's a game that exploits resources in a Free Market Capitalist Universe and you're telling me that corporations are afraid of Planets???
Goes completely against immersion.

The resource grinding, animal documenting, that's all No Man's Sky.
Why can't we have the trade mechanics of the X Universe on a Planet?
What you do on No Man's Sky is a completely different thing to an X Game that nobody is asking for here.


What you are asking for takes a lot of resources to make. I would rather they spend these resources on improving the core game play. No Mans sky spent years to make what is essentially a system that generates planets and some life form on it. 'It took them YEARS'. You don't really thing that planetary landings are simple to implement?

Additionally, Just like No mans Sky and Elite dangerous, there is NOTHING to do once you land. It's just boooring!!! The only game that may solve this is StarCitizen. But even then it doesn't look like there will be that much to do on the planets, and these guys have devolved tech to populate full scale planets with 100% buildings that you can actually enter.

So no. Please don't waste time on something that is useless. If anything, I would rather we didn't have any First Person walking rather then getting the pointless mechanic in XR.

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Skeeter





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PostPosted: Fri, 1. Dec 17, 20:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I don't think barran planets are that resource intensive I never asked for class m planets with billions of people on walking around and massive cities all over it. Just do something like freelancer where u can dock at class m maybe which u can switch to hanger/bar/shop areas. But mainly I'd like to see is barran moons which you can either land, scan for mineral deposits, mine them by either manually collect them or use auto drones like from frontier elite 2 where u leave em for a bit come back and see how much is mined etc. Maybe you can develope moons etc for a base maybe, some factories on like processing plants to collect air to sell or water things that are valuable to space play.

Just do something with planetoids instead of just pretty backgrounds since alot of games use them but egosoft don't seem to want to.

Game development has come along way and doing planets or moons etc isn't that hard and they don't really take up much resources especially if it's generated procedurally initially. The only labour intended part would be populating them with cities but no one has said that is a must if they do them have they. Besides arnt X games sandbox, so what's the harm of having a moon with low gravity and messing about on a moon buggy just zipping about doing wheelies off cliffs and floating along due to gravity. Could be fun when ur bored doing other stuff.


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Morkonan





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PostPosted: Fri, 1. Dec 17, 22:08    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
Elite D. has landing on planets. X games have building massive empires of stations and fleets. Pick your poison. Wink


^--- This.

There's no point to having direct interactions with a planet or its surface in an X game. It's just not that sort of scale the game is built on.

And, if it was... That'd be cool, but then the game would probably lose its "focus" and half the players would be upset all of the time. I'd rather all the players be upset half the time than half of them being upset all of the time. Smile

Note: An entirely separate game in a sort of FPS/RPG genre based on the X Universe might be interesting coupled with a tight focus on such an experience. ("The Pit" built on the "Sword of the Stars" IP with some success. I don't see why a really successful release of "X4" couldn't lead to a successful, more intimate, RPG'ish game in the X universe.)

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spankahontis





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PostPosted: Sat, 2. Dec 17, 21:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

lyubarskiy wrote:


What you are asking for takes a lot of resources to make. I would rather they spend these resources on improving the core game play. No Mans sky spent years to make what is essentially a system that generates planets and some life form on it. 'It took them YEARS'. You don't really thing that planetary landings are simple to implement?

Additionally, Just like No mans Sky and Elite dangerous, there is NOTHING to do once you land. It's just boooring!!! The only game that may solve this is StarCitizen. But even then it doesn't look like there will be that much to do on the planets, and these guys have devolved tech to populate full scale planets with 100% buildings that you can actually enter.

So no. Please don't waste time on something that is useless. If anything, I would rather we didn't have any First Person walking rather then getting the pointless mechanic in XR.



I don't find that really as a viable excuse not to try, Hello Games are a small company, they concentrated mainly on the procedural generation aspect of their game, they did a good job, their biggest flaw was they didn't plan ahead of what they were going to put into their Procedurally Generated Universe.
While the X Universe has plenty of stuff to do, but just not the procedural generated worlds.

But what is stopping them from making an editing tool to generate a planet.
You misunderstand me, i'm not asking for Egosoft to go nuts like No Man's Sky. But the Worlds that will be in the current X-Universe games, to say they can't do that? Egosoft are a larger company, surely they can organise resources to slowly build such a feature and add the X-Gameplay mechanics.
Like you said, "They took years to make NMS" so a small group of Egosoft to do something hell of allot smaller.

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The Q
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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Dec 17, 15:39    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

spankahontis wrote:
I don't find that really as a viable excuse not to try, Hello Games are a small company, they concentrated mainly on the procedural generation aspect of their game, they did a good job, their biggest flaw was they didn't plan ahead of what they were going to put into their Procedurally Generated Universe.
While the X Universe has plenty of stuff to do, but just not the procedural generated worlds.

But what is stopping them from making an editing tool to generate a planet.
You misunderstand me, i'm not asking for Egosoft to go nuts like No Man's Sky. But the Worlds that will be in the current X-Universe games, to say they can't do that? Egosoft are a larger company, surely they can organise resources to slowly build such a feature and add the X-Gameplay mechanics.
Like you said, "They took years to make NMS" so a small group of Egosoft to do something hell of allot smaller.


I think you're overestimating the company size of Egosoft. Egosoft has about 20 employees, Hello Games has 16. The difference isn't that great. Also Egosoft is already working on different projects (XR/XR VR and X4) at the same time. There's only so much workforce you have and splitting up the team even more may not be possible without risking progress in other areas.

What I wonder though, and that's really my main point, why should Egosoft spend time on a new feature which is similar enough to one that wasn't properly implemented yet? Walking on stations, which was implemented in X Rebirth not how many hoped it would, will see an adjusted comeback in X4. With the stated plan of only implementing interiors "that are relevant to gameplay...[they] actually have". To me it would then make a lot more sense to wait how this implementation is seen by fans, before yet opening up another room full of possibilities for interiors/exterior modelling and gameplay actions. In that regard I also have a problem with the suggestion of making a smaller version of NoMan's Sky, as one of the main points of critiscm about the planets in NoMan's Sky and the station interiors in X Rebirth was that there was simply not enough to do in there.


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Rei Ayanami





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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Dec 17, 14:10    Post subject: Re: Planet Xploration? Reply with quote Print

While planet exploration certainly would be a feature i'd love to see, i think there are some things i can think of why it would be, compared to NMS and Elite, far more difficult to implement:

1) CPU-power
When you play NMS or Elite your pc does not have to simulate the entire rest of the universe while you're hopping around on some planet or even when flying through space.
In both Elite and NMS when you travel from system to system with your jumpdrive the entire sector you're leaving gets wiped from your computers memory and only the system you're in gets loaded as a small level. When you land on a planet, almost everything in space vanishes and only your planet is kept as a new "sublevel". These two games essentially only show and simulate a small bubble around the player, they don't have a need to calculate thousands of stations and ships if they aren't in the same "level" as you.
X games on the other hand do have to calculate everything that's going on even if you are on the other side of the universe. While that is already quite taxing on the CPU while in space, imagine having to do that while also rendering nice-looking planet environments and calculating possibly thousands of on-surface vehicles per planet.

2) Ai
Fighting on the ground or with atmosphere-only vehicles would require Adding at least 2 new Ai systems : one for ground combat, one for atmospheric flight.
Ais for all ships in the universe can be very CPU-intensive, so i refer to my point 1), however i also like to add that the space flight AI in X games already isn't that smart (my guess is because there are so many Ai they have to share CPU ressources). Imagine how ships like to bump into eachother in space, now imagine the X ai flying moves in a gravity-affected combat aircraft over a fatal planet surface.... Rolling Eyes i'd rather have them improve the space flight Ai before them adding two new types of Ai for completely different environments.

3) Planet creation
While in Elite you can on "planets" as far as i know you can't really land on all planets, but rather "only" on non-atmospheric objects, and not all of them, proably because generating and loading believable planets with vegetation, animals, etc is far more difficult. Many planets in the X-universe however have life and atmosphere. Lets say Egosoft copied Elite and implemented planetary landings for non-atmospheric planets, what would be the in-game logical reason why you would be able to land on some planets but only those without plants, cities or any form of life?
Ok, lets take NMSs planetary generation then, it can generate planets with plant life and animals, so we can land anywhere. OK, it can't generate cities properly, but lets say that's not important for now.
While i absolutely enjoy playing NMS even to this day, i must say that after a while many planets feel very generic and same-y. Procedually generated content is bound to feel generic after a while, even while watching Star Citizens city generation technology you can see that many buildings and objects are repeated in a pattern. Genericness and repeteition is the biggest flaw with current planetary procedural generation and i have yet to see a game with procedurally generated planets that truly makes every planet feel unique and believable.
The only alternative would be creating the planets by hand, that that'd be a stupidly huge amount of work, especially if you want to uniquely model every planet in the X universe.

Again, i'd too love to have planetary exploration, but until the flaws of the current-gen planetary generation algorithms (genericness, believability of plant/animal life and cities, on-planet entity Ai and CPU-consumption) are improved and Egosoft somehow gets additional teams so they don't lose ressources intended for developing the space-part of the game i see little benefit in adding them to the X-series.

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schedarx





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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Dec 17, 17:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I'm glad you won't be doing second Star Citizen. I don't want to land on planets. I just need planets to have some meaning economy wise. It's good that you are focusing on economy.

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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Dec 17, 22:36    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Planets are only as interesting as what you can do on them.

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Kevin2202





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PostPosted: Sat, 9. Dec 17, 05:54    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Has anyone ever asked yourselves: what would I do if planets were explorable?

I'm a long time Elite player and while the concept of landing on planet is cool, but there's literally nothing to do but rove around nothing but rocks. Elite, no matter how hard the game tries, the game just feels empty everywhere. Bernd pointed out something similar - a good reasoning when he explains about the genre's market in the early days, during his presentation at XCON, which was about how FPS games had all these level designs but space games were just empty space and shooting other ships. So I am glad the direction X4 is taking, which is about making space feel populated and not empty.

And do you have any idea the resources it would take for the development team to have every planets to be explorable and populated with things to do?
Even Star Citizen, with all their funding and dedicated development studios, are still struggling to pull it off. And just then they announced they are going to shrink the world a bit too. It takes tremendous amount of time even for them and their development tools to make things easier in that aspect.

What's on planets that the space stations don't already have?

Are you expecting to see population centers and stores you can trade your goods at? As far as I'm concerned it's the age of space and all the things that players can do in the game are focused in space, so having planets to be explorable would be pointless imo.

I'd just like to explore star systems, trade, and fight. If I see another clunky FPS design in a space game, I'm going to be really annoyed.

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PostPosted: Fri, 15. Dec 17, 04:46    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

What I don't get is why having planets is such a problem. It's not like they have to have every single sector have to have a planet with procedurally generated stuff like No Man's Sky, they could just as well have say 10 to 20 individually crafted planets dispersed throughout the X universe and go with that. The problem with No Man's Sky (a game I DO like BTW) was that it's impossible to make each planet interesting in it's own right because procedural generation is going to result in a tons of planets that are all copy pasted versions of each other, all essentially identical and only superficially different. They don't even have to put landable planets in this or the next game, they can just have a small team working on it and put the landable planets into a game whenever they've built up enough unique stuff on enough planets, at most having to translate it into a new engine.

It's not as difficult to make such a feature as people are making it out to be.

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PostPosted: Fri, 15. Dec 17, 05:31    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

This thread reminds me of all the ones asking for explorable stations in X3's heyday.

Egosoft caved into the pressure, and what was the result in X:R?

Repetitive stations, dreadful NPC animations, boring exploration, granny heads, etc. Probably thousands of developer man-hours to implement and attempt to fix these issues, to then incorporate a way for station NPC exploration to be completely avoided via a menu....

All those hours could have been spent making the space part, of a space game, much better.

Call me crazy, but when I play a space 4x game, I want the space 4x part to be exceptional, rather than mediocre because a company has tried to satisfy far too many different game genres that they end up satisfying none of them.

When I get the itch for some planet exploration, there are many specialist games that do that FAR better than Egosoft could ever do, because it's their core gameplay mechanic.

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PostPosted: Fri, 15. Dec 17, 06:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Beermachine wrote:
This thread reminds me of all the ones asking for explorable stations in X3's heyday.

Egosoft caved into the pressure, and what was the result in X:R?

Repetitive stations, dreadful NPC animations, boring exploration, granny heads, etc. Probably thousands of developer man-hours to implement and attempt to fix these issues, to then incorporate a way for station NPC exploration to be completely avoided via a menu....

All those hours could have been spent making the space part, of a space game, much better.

Call me crazy, but when I play a space 4x game, I want the space 4x part to be exceptional, rather than mediocre because a company has tried to satisfy far too many different game genres that they end up satisfying none of them.

When I get the itch for some planet exploration, there are many specialist games that do that FAR better than Egosoft could ever do, because it's their core gameplay mechanic.

Egosoft, or any developer for that matter is perfectly capable of having multiple sides to a game and having them all work really well, it's just a matter of time and effort being put into the process of making it. Dismissing a feature as bad under the logic that the time and effort spent on it could be or could have been better used to make another feature better is nothing more than a excuse to get rid of a feature you personally don't like, and a poor one at that.

Any given feature in any game can be done well if the developers CARE to, and without reducing another feature in the process.

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Beermachine





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PostPosted: Fri, 15. Dec 17, 07:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

immortalfrieza wrote:
Beermachine wrote:
This thread reminds me of all the ones asking for explorable stations in X3's heyday.

Egosoft caved into the pressure, and what was the result in X:R?

Repetitive stations, dreadful NPC animations, boring exploration, granny heads, etc. Probably thousands of developer man-hours to implement and attempt to fix these issues, to then incorporate a way for station NPC exploration to be completely avoided via a menu....

All those hours could have been spent making the space part, of a space game, much better.

Call me crazy, but when I play a space 4x game, I want the space 4x part to be exceptional, rather than mediocre because a company has tried to satisfy far too many different game genres that they end up satisfying none of them.

When I get the itch for some planet exploration, there are many specialist games that do that FAR better than Egosoft could ever do, because it's their core gameplay mechanic.

Egosoft, or any developer for that matter is perfectly capable of having multiple sides to a game and having them all work really well, it's just a matter of time and effort being put into the process of making it. Dismissing a feature as bad under the logic that the time and effort spent on it could be or could have been better used to make another feature better is nothing more than a excuse to get rid of a feature you personally don't like, and a poor one at that.

Any given feature in any game can be done well if the developers CARE to, and without reducing another feature in the process.


In an ideal world where financial resources are unlimited this is true, unfortunately that world doesn't exist. Compromises have to be made, player demographics and market, gameplay focus, genre choices, complications to game design due to wildly different feature requirements between different genres, the list is almost endless.

Even Star Citizen, with its $160M+ and 400+ team is having difficulty implementing all the features it's promised (which are getting cut more and more) to an acceptable standard to satisfy all the demands of it's fans, mainly due to trying to be the "one game to rule them all". It's almost a textbook example of feature creep.

Edit - As for the personal comment, I have nothing against station exploration at all. I very much enjoyed it in the Mass Effect series, KOTOR and many other games. They had enjoyable FPS, memorable storylines / side quests / NPC's, interactions, good animations, diversity, etc. It's just that there was no way given Egosoft's budget and gameplay focus that they could get anywhere near those kinds of production values.

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