X3 AP - not a good start

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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TTD
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Post by TTD » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 09:20

I agree...with survival games you spend the first hundred hours being killed multiple times for various reasons....usually lack of skill or knowledge.

But eventually, that pesky creature that kept killing you becomes no more than an annoyance compaired to other problems in the game.

In X , you learn by mistake.
You also learn from both new and old players.

Long term players like those above and myself , tend to think we know as
much about he game as we can...then some new player,with a fresh view on the game, comes in and discovers something that we have all overlooked !

we never really stop learning in this game.
Experimentation is a good key for gaining new knowledge

jlehtone
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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 16:52

Timsup2nothin wrote:If nothing else, it takes quite a bit of playing the game before you stumble into that "aha" moment when you realize hey, there are ships just laying around!!!
That is a fair point. There are definitely opportunities for moments of relevation, that are preemptively denied from you, if you acquire foreknowledge by other means.


The game stores 13 saves locally (Documents\Egosoft\X3AP\save). 10 explicit saves and 3 autosaves. Autosave occurs when you dock to a Station (but can be disabled). Explicit save is possible both while docked (free of charge) and in space (consumes one Goner insurance). Goner Temple sells insurance vouchers.

I, for example, make explicit save occasionally, round robin to all 10 slots. When I reach the 10th, I copy entire folder away. Therefore, I effectively never overwrite any of my explicit saves. (Quite pointless though, for I forget what all those saves have.) :oops:

I do backups manually, but there is a Savegame Manager by mrbadger https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=249129
A tool to do file copying more coherently, with some metadata.


When seeing a risky mission, I tend to dock at nearest Station to create a autosave before taking the mission. It is up to me to decide whether I want to resort to reloading the save.

I do recall once rerunning the same mission in several different ways, evaluating approaches. In the end, reloaded the save one more time and never took the mission.


There is the Dead is Dead (DiD, aka ironman) play style where one never reloads. One Start uses Steam to enforce that. Needless to say, Steam can fail -> Game Over. Game can crash -> Game Over. That big Boron enters from the Gate right after you -> lethal collision -> Game Over. A plot Mission puts you where you don't know the proper tactic -> Game Over.

In other words, the DiD style requires extensive knowledge of the game, careful planning, nerves of steel, and some luck. Not for beginners. Not for my patience either. I do salute those, who dare.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 17:09

jlehtone wrote: In other words, the DiD style requires extensive knowledge of the game, careful planning, nerves of steel, and some luck. Not for beginners. Not for my patience either. I do salute those, who dare.
The other thing required by DiD style is not trying crazy things, which makes it not my style. I end most sessions by docking at a station, then taking off on something that by all appearances is suicidal. Usually, it is...but hey, I was done playing anyway.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Hub manager
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Post by Hub manager » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 17:15

This is a single player game isnt it ?

and there is no way anyone has played this game without google or off site sites filled with tips and tricks.
I also installed the better collector mod,because of the spinning ship bug.

2 mods made this game playable,because without them most newcomers would take one look at the complexity and just move on.

Personally i play games for fun,if they become a chore i dont bother,theres enough stress in the real world to deal with :lol:

If any developers happen to read this may i suggest hiding 90% of the UI menus until the player actually needs them,only triggering when the player starts to explore a different aspect of the game,like station building etc.because that menu system appearing all at once is horrible for the first timer.

When i start a game more complex than point and shoot i print off the key list,this one ran my printer out of ink :D

Alan Phipps
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Post by Alan Phipps » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 17:44

".. and there is no way anyone has played this game without google or off site sites filled with tips and tricks. ... 2 mods made this game playable ... "

Some of us bought it and started playing it on release date (and also true for its predecessors using that engine) - there were no tricks, tips or mods then! Thousands of players did indeed play lengthy vanilla games and thoroughly enjoyed doing so. :)

I can't see the devs reworking the UI on a game & engine this old. Some of us are quite used to it the way it is now - warts and all.

Remember that perceptions of the 'goodness' of a UI and gameplay change significantly over time as new game engines, APIs and system capabilities come out and allow comparisons to be made between the older and newer gaming environments.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

zazie
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Post by zazie » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 18:12

"this one ran my printer out of ink" - for another laugh: read some "Rebirth"-(rant-)threads and you will find posts wishing back the XTC-menues :mrgreen:

Hub manager
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Post by Hub manager » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 18:26

zazie wrote:"this one ran my printer out of ink" - for another laugh: read some "Rebirth"-(rant-)threads and you will find posts wishing back the XTC-menues :mrgreen:
Before grabbing this i checked out rebirth,and the menu`s seemed to be the least of the issues.

Hoping that teething on AP will be a good stage before X4,but will be watching release day to see the reaction before buying.

For example i just found out about out of sector events,and lost a lot of headway thinking a few M5s couldnt kill a fleet of M3`s :cry:

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 19:29

Hub manager wrote: and there is no way anyone has played this game without google or off site sites filled with tips and tricks.
The concept of being relegated to non-existence is interesting, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be working as I am still here. Perhaps you aren't putting in sufficient effort?
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

RAVEN.myst
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 20:07

Timsup2nothin wrote:
Hub manager wrote: and there is no way anyone has played this game without google or off site sites filled with tips and tricks.
The concept of being relegated to non-existence is interesting, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be working as I am still here. Perhaps you aren't putting in sufficient effort?
So, Tim, are we each other's imaginary friends? :D You and I and most of the other players that have been around for long...

@Hub manager: In my case, you are actually partially right, but exactly opposite to how you think: I only started allowing myself (very sporadic and specific) use of external resources after I had learned the game ('games', actually - I started with X2) on my own (I have this major thing against spoilers, and walkthroughs, and not solving puzzles and such myself, and the like.) Once my game had evolved to the point where I knew the basics and then some, and small specifics became significant, especially for specific experiments I started running, (this was after several hundreds of hours of play, mind you) I started occasionally looking up things on the wiki, or looking in this forum for answers or comments on issues/problems not really related to game-play per se, so things such as known bugs, ways around broken missions, etc.

Oh, just an ontological point: at least those people who first published those "tips and tricks" couldn't possibly have had access to those same tips and tricks - before they even existed. ;) Hmmm, a time machine... I just had an entertaining thought... or am I just about to?


EDIT: Tag-fix
Last edited by RAVEN.myst on Thu, 12. Oct 17, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Hub manager
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Post by Hub manager » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 20:10

Timsup2nothin wrote:
Hub manager wrote: and there is no way anyone has played this game without google or off site sites filled with tips and tricks.
The concept of being relegated to non-existence is interesting, but for some reason it doesn't seem to be working as I am still here. Perhaps you aren't putting in sufficient effort?
Is there any reason you keep adding nothing to this but undeserved animosity and downright trollish behaviour ?

Nobody is forcing you to read or reply.

CBJ
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Post by CBJ » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 20:36

Since you're new around here I will point you to the forum rules, specifically the part about contacting a moderator if you're not happy with another user's behaviour rather than retaliating in kind. That said: Timsup2nothin, behave yourself!

To avoid this kind of situation in future, if you don't make sweeping dismissive statements then you will probably find that people will be more inclined to help you. :)

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TTD
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Post by TTD » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 22:36

Thanks CBJ :-)


I for one , out of many players, did not even have internet when I first started playing this series.

I learned by getting killed and working out what I did wrong... wrong ship for the job? too eager to go in without checking around me?

as for the keys and menues, I read and re read the skipy manual that came with X2 until it started to look fragile.

Many gamers want to pick up a controller and just press buttons...well this game has been adapted for that to a certain extent, but then real fun in the game is knowing which keyboard button to press and when...that can only be learned by experience.
eg, anyone can read the latest driving manual, but that does not mean they can drive acar after reading it.


Persevere with the game.
As CBJ suggests, many here will help you, if you really want them to.

jlehtone
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Post by jlehtone » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 23:01

TTD wrote:real fun in the game is knowing which keyboard button to press and when...that can only be learned by experience.
All available functions are not bound to any button by default, and one can change the existing bindings too.


I had the SETA disconnected for quite a while. No need for such a time thief. ;)
On the other hand, JumpDrive, Docking Computer and UFJD are now on easy to hit buttons.

When you know what you need the most and know that you cannot afford to miss ...


Internet is not the most reliable source of information. Trust me. I've written there.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Mon, 9. Oct 17, 23:22

jlehtone wrote: I had the SETA disconnected for quite a while. No need for such a time thief. ;)
I just jettison them and use them for target practice.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Honved
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Post by Honved » Tue, 10. Oct 17, 16:14

My biggest gripe with SETA is that you can't sell it. About all you can do is install it on a hull you're selling, and I'm not even sure that it increases the value.

At the beginning, when you really don't know what options are available to you and you only have one ship to control, SETA is an alternative to sitting there warming a chair until something else happens. Once you've got a handful of ships doing things remotely, and have a better understanding of the various possible courses of action open to you, the time spent crossing systems will be fully occupied with managing your growing Empire, even if you're flying a lethargic capital ship through a huge system.

People learn best from their own mistakes, so making as many mistakes as possible should make you an expert in no time. For some odd reason, my boss at work doesn't seem to see it that way.

The one thing to remember about the User Interface is that it's the result of a gradual buildup of features over time (and nearly a dozen games). Each item is tacked on where it fits, not necessarily where it makes the most sense, and a lot of things which are rarely used ended up far more easily accessed than things you need constantly. I suspect that X4 needs a total interface rethink, but mostly the same level of functionality (which is where Rebirth went wrong).

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