X4 boarding mechanics

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What kind of boarding you would like to see in X4?

X3 style
35
29%
XR style
53
44%
My idea
8
7%
Other idea
11
9%
Don't care / don't use boarding
14
12%
 
Total votes: 121

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mr.WHO
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X4 boarding mechanics

Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 19:22

Egosoft mentioned that they still haven't implemented the boarding mechanics. Therefore I wonder what kind of boarding mechaniccs you think would fit the X4?

We had boarding in X3 as well as in XR.

Personally I liked XR boarding more, but after time I got tired with small depth and constant boarding mini-game that cannot be skipped.


Because we already have XR as a baseline I think it would be best to modify it for X4 usage with following changes:

- able to board with multiple ships (not only player ship) with more than 50 marines. The top limit should be the target size, e.g. you won't fit 500 marines into small freighter, but Destroyer would.

- there should be dedicted barding ships (e.g. boarding corvettes, boarding shuttles) that latch on target for drilling the hole for marines to board. The boarding pods/spacesuits are absurd when you want to drill through armor of warship. Dedicated boarding ship would be also better target to fend of by AI than swarm of pods/suits.

- mini-games should be optional (increase the odds of boarding), not compulsory (e.g. need to destroy all surface elements to stand a chance), also mini-games should be player to decide, not picked at random (e.g. If I want to hack, I hack and not wait for game to ask for it).

- ships should have "Deck" system from X3, bigger ships will have more decks to capture.

- marine types should vary:
>>> Grunts - basic guy/thug with gun, nothing special but ultra cheap
>>> Marines - infantry specialized in boarding
>>> Power armor - best attack/defense, but due to their size they can board only L and LX size ships.
>>> Combat droid - moderate stat and price, but they don't gain skills nor experience
>>> Hackers/Engineers - special infantry that help with boarding (boost other infantry) and provide bunus against ship automatic defences. They are also essential for boarding of Xenon ships.
>>> Officers - just like hackers they provide general boost to stats of boarding/defenders. However if they are killed they provide penalty to stats so there is risk/reward.


Also you can make/train your own marines:
workforce + guns = grunts
grunts + combat suits = marines
marines + power armor = Power Armor
marines + hacking equipment = Hackes
marines + "Officer seminar"(bought from NPC Officers) = Officers
various construction materials = Droids


- marines should have two stats that define how effective they are:
>>> Skills - defines how well trained the marine is. Skills need to be trained (e.g. marine training station or module or even on board training by the officer).
>>> Experience - how much actual combat marine saw. Cannot be trained, must be gained with actual boarding/defending actions.

- instead of XR mini-games we should replace them with "Chaos" system:
Doing various actions increase boarding target "Chaos meter", the more the chaos the more "boarding resistance" is reduced. Chaos is temporary and fend of after some time.
Actions tha increas chaos (free pick by player at any time):
- destroing surface elements
- using hacker drones
- dammage to hull
- chaos increasing weapons (e.g. Ion guns, EMP missile)
- crew killing weapons (e.g. Radiation missiles) - not only cause chaos but ernamently reduce resistance by killing the crew/defenders
- turncoats (e.g. you paid NPC to be hired on board of target ship to cause the chaos in the right moment)

- upgrades that boost ship boarding resistance:
>>> Automatic defences (e.g. internal turrets) - add X points of boarding resistance
>>> Reinforced bulkheads (elongate the capture time between decks)
>>> Armory (boost defenders personel statistics e.g. 0 marines 0 boost, but many marines, large boost)
>>> Enhanced Firewall (reduce effectivness of hackers and makes player hacking mini-games harder)
>>> Backup bridge (very expensive, only usable on L and LX ships, but adds another deck that needs to be captured)

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Post by birdtable » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 19:34

My preferred method of boarding is to have no pre-set procedure,, If you want to send your boarding crew across and they get shot to bits, get left Km's behind, incinerated by the engines or ship jumps away with crew.. etc then it is your decision and you suffer the losses.... rest would be as XR,, marines, officer skills ...

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Post by Ezarkal » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 20:04

I like XR style, but I hate the fact that the side-objectives are forced on you. I mean, even if your boarding squad overwhelms the target ship, failure/refusal to do a single of these objectives will incur massive losses.

So the actual mechanic is ok for me, but it requires tuning/additional options.
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Post by Axeface » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 20:54

I really dont like XR boarding, I just think its ridiculous that you can just sit in a capital ships blind spot and pepper away at them without them being able to do anything. I much prefer something like in x3 where you had to at least coordinate something, usually with other ships set to attack shields.

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Post by Ezarkal » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 21:38

Axeface wrote:I just think its ridiculous that you can just sit in a capital ships blind spot and pepper away at them without them being able to do anything. I much prefer something like in x3 where you had to at least coordinate something, usually with other ships set to attack shields.
I can agree with that. But I also think this comes from the fact that the skunk is way too overpowered. With a weaker or slower ship, and a few more defensive turrets/escort to cover the various blind spots, boarding would be much more of a challenge. Then you would have to bring in the fleet and ask it to assist you.

+1 to the idea of various forms of fleet support.


@ mr.WHO: I think that idea of "chaos meter" is pretty much what they initially wanted to implement in XR. The thing is it ended up so Yisha-controlled that it didn't end up working that way. However, the first time I boarded that Taranis in the campaign, I really had that "let's add some mayhem to the party" feeling that your chaos mechanism would bring. :twisted:
And yeah, if they expand on the boarding mechanics (which I hope they will), they must definitively add some sort of boarding resistance upgrade. You listed some pretty good ideas.
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Post by sd_jasper » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 22:34

I think that the XR system is a good starting place, but there is plenty of room for improving on it.

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Post by mr.WHO » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 22:46

Ezarkal wrote: @ mr.WHO: I think that idea of "chaos meter" is pretty much what they initially wanted to implement in XR. The thing is it ended up so Yisha-controlled that it didn't end up working that way. However, the first time I boarded that Taranis in the campaign, I really had that "let's add some mayhem to the party" feeling that your chaos mechanism would bring. :twisted:
And yeah, if they expand on the boarding mechanics (which I hope they will), they must definitively add some sort of boarding resistance upgrade. You listed some pretty good ideas.
Yup, XR system could be good, but become somehow spoiled by compulsory mini-game.

My idea is more like - you don't need additional action if you don't want (and willing to accept losses, especially among unskilled unexperienced marines).
However if you want you can improve the odds with "chaos" as optional actions (even with XR hacking drone minigame).
My idea has the benefit that in later game, when you have lots of marines at your disposal, or group of well equipped battle-hardened veterans then you don't need to bother with nuisances. You jusy let your AI ships do the job via map point & click.

That is holistic system from both early, mid and late game as you feel the progression and achivement through whole game.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Fri, 6. Oct 17, 23:17

@OP: I think your proposal includes some interesting and sound ideas (particularly about bringing back decks proportional in number to ship size - I find it absurd that boarding a Rahanas or a Fulmekron involves the same number of "rounds"), but I fear it is probably too complex to be implemented elegantly and bug-free (just being realistic here - ugh, it's so unpleasant! :D )

My overall opinion on the subject is rather odd/paradoxical:
- In theory, I find the XR approach more elegant and plausible for the most part - and yet I find it too easy to control and frankly rather boring. I suspect that major factors here are too easy access (can start boarding practically from the get-go - though theoretically this should only represent an extra play-style option for the player, which should be a good thing), and the lack of diversity - the difficulty is represented by a comparison of two abstract attributes, whereas longer combat on tougher ships would be better, I think. Also, perhaps the reduced granularity of the 3 marine levels approach may be too simplistic for my tastes - having more marines only *looks* like it adds granularity to that aspect. Overall, I think it's the too quick and simplistic marine training in XR that makes it dull for me (odd, I know, since the X3 mechanics in this respect aren't exactly heart-poundingly thrilling, heheh)
- Again theoretically, the X3 approach seems deeply flawed, and yet I tend to enjoy those boarding operations a lot more, and even though it appears superficially shallower than the XR system, I actually find those encounters deeper and more nuanced. I think partly this may be due to the preparatory "metagame". Of course, one thing that really is problematic is the occasional RNG swinginess (I tend to control the odds from the start, yet even so occasionally the results are ridiculously unfavourable.)
Ezarkal wrote:I like XR style, but I hate the fact that the side-objectives are forced on you. I mean, even if your boarding squad overwhelms the target ship, failure/refusal to do a single of these objectives will incur massive losses.
I also used to think this, but in my latest playthrough I discovered that it's not actually the case - if your boarding strength is sufficiently higher than resistance (I don't remember exactly by how much, but it might be quite a bit, as I always make sure to have a VERY comfortable margin, whenever possible), then not doing those little objectives simply means the operation takes longer - once the objective times out, the round's result is resolved. I do think that the side-objectives reduce resistance or boost boarding strength, thus helping in marginal cases, but I think that overall the choice being offered is: "do you want to do this quickly, or would you prefer to take your time but have the ship in better condition afterward?"
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Re: X4 boarding mechanics

Post by gbjbaanb » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 00:02

mr.WHO wrote: mini-games should be
... not present at all.

Fixed that for you :-)

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Post by Killjaeden » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 04:07

I don't like minigames. But personally i think the biggest reason why i highly dislike the XR boarding (and find it boring) is because you can just lazily fly into some blind spot and plink away at surface elements.

Yes the skunk is OP, but a much bigger factor that contributes to this issue imo is the super contrived "gravity pull" mechanic that makes you move with the larger ship automatically. It makes it super easy to use cheesetactics (poking in and out of blind spots) to disable turrets - essentially expanding the blind spots even further. In X3 it was much more difficult, because it required constant maneuvering to stay where you wanted (and also made it much more dangerous). And you couldn't just disable that one turret that covered the blind spot to make it even easier.

As weird as it sounds - the first step to improving the boarding (using XR as base) should be to change the gravity pull-mechanic such, that it is no longer automatic. Instead, it should be declared as tractor system on the large ship. If a small ship wants to be pulled with along a large ship, the small ship would have to request that from the captain. If there is an agreement, the large ships tractor system is activated (either for an entire volume around the ship, or for just particular ships that requested it). If not, player has to get by without it - certainly in case of hostility.

This makes combat more interesting for the player/ less static and less cheesy, but retains the technology for making landing easier. Players could possibly decide not to request activation and land anyway - to make it more challenging (draw the parallels to landing on a moving aircraft carrier in a flight sim)
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Post by JSDD » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 10:53

Killjaeden wrote:I don't like minigames. But personally i think the biggest reason why i highly dislike the XR boarding (and find it boring) is because you can just lazily fly into some blind spot and plink away at surface elements.

Yes the skunk is OP, but a much bigger factor that contributes to this issue imo is the super contrived "gravity pull" mechanic that makes you move with the larger ship automatically.
... i think that's just a cheap trick to avoid having to detect for collisions while you're flying very close to another bigship: the player will become a "child node" in the global scene, so when the bigship moves, the player moves with it as a turret of your ship moves with your ship ... maybe that's just to simplify / avoid complicated physics calculations, and egosoft "camouflaged" it as "gravity-pull" feature ^^
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Post by Sandalpocalypse » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 11:24

'gravity pull' actually took a reasonable amount of work to do and is more complicated physics and performance wise than the default. it's a deliberate design decision to make it easier to engage with capital ships as objectives and gameplay motivators.

games like space engineers and empyrion struggle with these issues and the havoc it wreaks on their physics engines.
I also used to think this, but in my latest playthrough I discovered that it's not actually the case - if your boarding strength is sufficiently higher than resistance once the objective times out, the round's result is resolved.
that's actually from one of the boarding mods

***

i would like to see something like the XR system for many things, but also an advanced boarding system for the largest of ships and for stations. It was a common feature of games like Tie Fighter or Freespace to escort a boarding vessel to a disabled target, either to attach to it or even to fly it into a hangar. Would like to see that sort of gameplay make a dynamic appearance in X4: something like a capital ship (maybe even a freighter class to carry all the mans) standing off from the target and sending boarding S-ships to land at or latch on to the station/vessel. Stations and capships could even reserve some fighter or drones for last ditch defense against such attacks.

The best part of such a system is that being AI-driven, it would be applicable for creating dynamic missions; a faction could set up a boarding attempt mission where the player is asked to help disable the target and protect the faction's transports.

You could also create a variation on it that works as a raid to seize goods (or tech?) rather than take a station over. Pirates could use it as a basis for a station-attack task; a capship with a fighter swarm stands off and sends raiding shuttles to board a target station, rather than the frankly suicidally pointless station assaults that have been the norm in the X-series. This would also create more gradations of mission result than is the norm: ranging from full success of the pirate raid and seize of goods, to destroyed deparitng shuttles so at least he pirates didnt get away with the goods, to destroyed all raiding shuttles, to destroyed the attacking mothership itself.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

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Post by Killjaeden » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 13:21

Sandalpocalypse wrote:'gravity pull' actually took a reasonable amount of work to do and is more complicated physics and performance wise than the default. it's a deliberate design decision to make it easier to engage with capital ships as objectives and gameplay motivators.

games like space engineers and empyrion struggle with these issues and the havoc it wreaks on their physics engines.
X4 or XR is in no way comparable to both those games. Their ships are built from hundreds to thousands of little blocks that all need to be simulated. This is what wreaks havoc on performance. In XR and X4 a ship is a single simulated object, plus maybe a dozend surface modules. In no way near the amount like in SE or Empyrion.

"Easier to engage with capital ships as objectives" - you try to make it sound like a boon, but it is not in combat. It dulls the game down. The only cases where the average player needs it is if they have to play yet another scan minigame (that for some strange reason does require you to fly close), or if you want to land on a moving ship.

In XR in combat you can stop paying attention to flying and just shoot turrets or other elements. It's too easy. Makes the combat very static and boring as hell. Just dodge in and out of blindspot lazily to regenerate yourself in between picking apart components and stripping the ship bare of defenses all by yourself.

Therefore it should be made situational, where you can use it on friendly ships on request, but not on enemies.
.. i think that's just a cheap trick to avoid having to detect for collisions while you're flying very close to another bigship: the player will become a "child node" in the global scene, so when the bigship moves, the player moves with it as a turret of your ship moves with your ship ... maybe that's just to simplify / avoid complicated physics calculations, and egosoft "camouflaged" it as "gravity-pull" feature ^^
Very unlikely. Actual collision detection is fairly easy. Plus you need it anyway, because you can still collide with the ship even in gravity pull mode. What's a bit more difficult is collision avoidance for AI, but the "gravity pull" feature does not affect the avoidance problem.

Calling it "gravity pull" or whatever their name for it is, is also magic as hell. Gravity pulls you towards the object, unless you are in a stable orbit around it. Even more reason why to make it a result of tractor beam/field technology.
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Post by hargn » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 15:05

Personally, I'd suggest a mix between X3 and XR:

I'd like the destructible weapons, shields and engines of XR, with these mechanics, you have to prepare your boarding : destroy the motor to immobilize the ship, destroy the shield to allow you marines to slice the hull, and destroy the weapons so that your marines have less chances to be pulverized in the cold void of space.

In X3, we have decks as it has be mentioned, and we have boarding pods : marines do not spawn from nowhere. You have to bring them with your boarding specialized ship, or via you M6 or TP from which they have to fly to the target. More realistic to my opinion.

If we could have different ways to board ships it could be nice. For example, we could have boarding pods, and specialized ships that can do boarding by raming the target.

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Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 15:23

Definitely prefer the XR approach to boarding.

X3's wasn't bad, at least in early versions of TC (pre 2.4 IIRC?) when you could still run spacewalk boarding ops on M1 & M2 capital ships using an M6 - insanely risky, often frustrating, but tremendous fun when it worked. However, completely lost interest in X3 boarding ops when it became effectively M7M only for boarding capitals - found that method incredibly dull.

Also definitely prefer softening up targets by systematic destruction of turrets etc, rather than the approach necessary for spacewalk boarding ops in X3 (i.e. shooting it with Ion-D or other high ROF/low damage weapons until enough turrets had been randomly destroyed) - that phase of X3 boarding ops was really quite tedious.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 18:38

Sandalpocalypse wrote:
I also used to think this, but in my latest playthrough I discovered that it's not actually the case - if your boarding strength is sufficiently higher than resistance once the objective times out, the round's result is resolved.
that's actually from one of the boarding mods
Nope - I ONLY play vanilla, so I have no mods installed. Ever.
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Post by wolvern » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 22:56

Wait them out:
Boarding should be more varied, where hacking systems would be able to clear a ship of enemies by killing them over a longer time by taking out life support. So this would take like 10 mins for them to all die out and thus protecting the ship or moving it using your cap ship and a form of towing?

Force them out:
Using many pods to board the ship like in XR while also using chemical warfare or otherwise which the item for it would be illegal in all systems and thus the pirates way. The chemical would be for fast capture and thinning because the pirates ships are designed for hit and run so speed is key and they wouldn't have as many in the boarding party.

AGI infiltration:
This would be the most dangerous boarding as it's basically just hacking the ship but this would also be a method to distract the ships during a boarding because you could force 1 ship to be marked as Xenon and as such force all ships to fire on it and thus make you less of a target for when boarding when there's 2-3 cap ships in the grouping.

First person boarding:
Finally allowing us to board via the docking bay on a ship and invade the enemy ship ourselves with our boarding party, this would be amazing because then we could actually start FPS killing a ship from the inside with our squads. Would love seeing this because then egosoft would need to finally put more detail into making interiors of cap ships. This has been a feature wanted for so damn long and they keep not doing it.... XR had a modder finally do it instead which was awesome because i could sit on the bridge and run around.

Forced Surrender:
Finally having the dialog where surrender actually does more than nothing at all...
Killing all modules on the outside of a ship would take a while but this is the NON BOARDING option, you gain the ship and hopefully we can get combat options for capital vs capital where higher class officers or ships with such orders would take out all the modules which could be faster because you can use many ships to do this and the module targeting option would NOT DESTROY (this is key) the ship.

NEEDED ITEM: Claiming the ship - So stop shooting at it!
Not the way you're thinking tho, i mean the ship is still owned by the enemy faction but it would stop enemies from shooting at it while you're claiming it.
This was the most annoying thing in XR and no mods were ever done for this to stop those asshats from shooting my new ship, it had no modules, it was dead in the water and yet everyone keeps shooting the damn thing....
FIX THIS IN THE X4 - I want to tell the allied forces to get stuffed without having to blow them all up just to get them off it.

Salvaging claims - Yes this could be a great thing
Don't need a ship?
Want to recycle it?
I want to be able to use other ships to salvage or recycle ships, even at my own shipyard / station. Give us the ability if wanting to scrap these ships so i can rebuild them into something new. If this becomes a thing, please allow our shipyards to force sell or dump excess... we don't want to have the shipyard cap out in parts and then just get stuck with a ship sitting there taking up room...

Jamming:
This is needed so that we can deploy jamming drones or even destroy the dish on ships so we can stop them calling in more ships over time. It's kinda crappy that we can't stop them from reporting us when there was a dish sitting on the front of every cap ship that had no use at all until someone came and used it in a mod. Please look at adding the mod to the X4 game so we can take out support requests.

WARGAMES - Training marines using cap ships
This is an essential idea for if using marines, we need to be able to TRAIN marines again but make it cost near nothing because if you think about it... If we already own a cap ship of that type, or even a cap ship they should be able to train on board that cap ship. Could even board a station maybe?
Last edited by wolvern on Sat, 7. Oct 17, 23:29, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by wolvern » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 23:08

Axeface wrote:I really dont like XR boarding, I just think its ridiculous that you can just sit in a capital ships blind spot and pepper away at them without them being able to do anything. I much prefer something like in x3 where you had to at least coordinate something, usually with other ships set to attack shields.
There's a lot of blind spots in everything, even on human military ships and bases there's always a blind spot or no cover in that section, the ship can't just bend itself and can only cover so far.

If we had to board using a cap ship because that could actually sustain the amount of people needed, then we'd still send smaller ships to take out weapons because they're faster and more agile to destroy such weapons. Any star wars movie or ship battle movie would usually show there's always going to be such thing.

This is why cap ships had drones, it's why they have fleets and support elements, if the ship is alone, we could just implement jamming technology and force it to not be able to send out a signal and thus no fleet support...

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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 23:34

<Remember the time I tried to capture Fulmekron>...what blindspot?
That thing had none.

BTW I would love to see hard Xenon boarding from X3 instead of no Xenon boarding of XR.

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Post by wolvern » Sat, 7. Oct 17, 23:45

mr.WHO wrote:<Remember the time I tried to capture Fulmekron>...what blindspot?
That thing had none.

BTW I would love to see hard Xenon boarding from X3 instead of no Xenon boarding of XR.
Yeah i can agree that some ships do have no real blind spots but that ship you can actually make a blind spot within seconds by taking out some modules at the back, the issue i had was that the engines are a little harder with that factions ships and the ray turrets were a pain in the ass...

I guess some factions are stupid with military somewhat but in many ways factions should have different ideals with defence. PMC brought backup every 2 mins to the main ship to help, Xenon swarmed with 3-4 cap ships in one area...

Every faction should have different ways to deal with such issues, it should never be impossible to board or extremely hard. Cargoships are always poorly protected tho because they are for cargo.

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