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Star Fall





Joined: 20 Sep 2017



PostPosted: Wed, 27. Sep 17, 14:02    Post subject: [X3TC] Neewbie in need of help Reply with quote Print

Greetings, I'm fairly new to this and would like to go deeper into knowing more about how to play the game.I have however seen a few topics that's going to closely resemble mine.But so far I still seem to be stuck even though I have read topics and discussions about it, so forgive me for the lack of understanding in this game though Laughing as I have still yet alot learn what's what and so on. Alright so here's the problem, I have read that complexes help to get alot of credits (TBH Cred's isn't a problem for me as most of my credits comes from Assassinations,Sector defences,Station defence,and escort missions),but anyway I'm struggling with stations keeping up with the resources and would love to make it easier,I also have no idea in what sector to put it in. Thanks in advance and sorry for the same topic even thought there are alot more out there.[/quote]


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Wed, 27. Sep 17, 14:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Welcome, traveler! Smile

If your station or complex is spending a lot of time blinking yellow due to resource shortage, your most likely problem is insufficient freighters. I would recommend adding more freighters, one by one, giving the station time to stabilise every time, and if it doesn't, then adding the next one. Also, I highly recommend using the Commercial Agent trade command (requires the freighter to be equipped with Trade Command Software Mark 1 which all freighters have by default, and Trade Command Software Mark 2 which is available at most Equipment Docks.)

Important: You need to have the Bonus Package installed in order to have access to the advanced command scripts - you haven't indicated which specific game you are playing, but they each have a version of the Bonus Pack, downloadable from this site.

Happy hunting and best luck! (And feel free to keep asking questions - you'll find friendly, helpful people on this forum) Smile


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Star Fall





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PostPosted: Wed, 27. Sep 17, 15:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Ah yes sorry my bad lol,I'm playing X3TC,I have already installed the latest version of the game and the bonus package.

I will start by getting more freighters as you suggested

Thanks for the welcoming and thanks for the reply Smile Very Happy


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Wed, 27. Sep 17, 18:33    Post subject: Re: Neewbie in need of help Reply with quote Print

Greetings! X³: Reunion
Star Fall wrote:
I have read that complexes help to get alot of credits (TBH Cred's isn't a problem for me as most of my credits comes from Assassinations,Sector defences,Station defence,and escort missions)

Everything is relative.

There is a limit on how much you can do personally. The player does not scale up very well. Rolling Eyes

It is quite easy to add more traders and stations. The NPC are the true limit on how large you can grow with them, and the limit is quite high. Well, you can build more, but market saturation leads to diminishing returns.


A station converts fixed amount of resource into fixed amount of product. If the product is sold at price higher than the value of the consumed resources, then there is profitss and you "get credits".

A complex has more than one station. If they are of same type, then you have simply scaled up the station and profit per unit does not change. Throughput does increase.

Example. I build a Farm. It consumes ECells. It is easy to find that much energy from nearby SPP's at cheap price.
Then I build a complex that has 100 Farms. That uses 100 times more ECells per hour and produces 100 times more product. It gets harder to haul that much per hour, and much harder to find energy and sell the product at the rate that the complex can convert them. Adding ships aids only the logistics part.

Complexing, say all Missile Forge stations together is essentially similar; multiple/more products.


Then is a "pipe". Connect a Farm and Bakery. Both consume energy. Farm supplies Bio-product to the Bakery. As total, the pipe consumes only ECells and produces Cahoonas. For each Cahoona, the complex needs some amount of ECells. The profit is what it is.

One can actually make more profit by not connecting the pipe. If the Farm sells its product to NPC at high price and the Bakery buys same Bio from NPC at lower price, there is more profit. Complex is "convenient". However, it is possible to both buy and sell the Bio-product at the Complex too. The CAG can do that.

One can expand the pipe, perhaps add a Mine too. A complex that consumes only ECells and produces high end product(s). There is clearly profit in turning energy "directly" into high energy plasma (throwers), but there are less NPC who buy HEPTs readily.


Tomahawks, Flails, Hammer Torpedoes (and their Terran equivalents). Be it station or complex, they are nice to build and can make much credits without (you ever selling any). Well, sell and sell ... the bounty on those criminals is a payment for something. Split


Quote:
I also have no idea in what sector to put it in.

Yes, location, location, location.

Build on the route of hostile ships and both your stations and their frighters are in jeopardy.

Build on the most remote locations, and it will be a long road to customers.

Build on busy sector that you need to visit often and ... framerate and AI autopilots will learn suicidal tendencies.

That still leaves decent places to consider.

I'm friendly with Argon. I don't visit west often. Sectors around Argon Prime ... if there is a sector, where there are plenty of resource producers and many product consumers within one jump of that sector, I could build in it.

(Disclaimer: I did complete all X3TC plots with very low amount of building.)


Three reasons for a station/complex to not get enough resources:
  • It has no money to buy anything
  • It is not willing to pay enough for the resources / all cheap sources are depleted
  • It consumes faster than the ships can haul



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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Wed, 27. Sep 17, 19:20    Post subject: Re: Neewbie in need of help Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
One can actually make more profit by not connecting the pipe. If the Farm sells its product to NPC at high price and the Bakery buys same Bio from NPC at lower price, there is more profit. Complex is "convenient". However, it is possible to both buy and sell the Bio-product at the Complex too. The CAG can do that.

This is a VERY important point, and is why "closed loop" complexes, which look great on paper ("perpetual motion engine"), have rather underwhelming output compared to their setup cost (but score on resource-independence and minimised freighter requirements.) This is also why trading is generally more lucrative than industry, as it involves the most optimal transactions available (both in terms of existence, and in terms of the player's ability to exploit - so being friendly with lots of factions is advantageous), so the "value addition" is maximised. Furthermore, trade bypasses that "production cycle" time aspect, going straight from the "buy low" to the "sell high", with the value addition not being time-constrained.


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ajime





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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 05:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

My personal choice is to have my military bases production in some of the unknown sectors like avarice(though there is booze complex for obvious reasons Very Happy) and my commercial wares trading/construction complexes in border sectors beside core sectors. Areas like nyana hideout.

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Star Fall





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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 13:07    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Impressive,I also was planning on getting the Osaka since I hear it's bloody overpowered in the game but the only real problem for me,like every one else,besides those that already have the fully armed ship(I"m jealous tbh) is the weapons to equip it with,and since you can't buy Terran Stations (yet) I thought I might build up a decent fleet before I go do the HUB plot (To protect my stations and home sector should they get attacked) but since MOST of the plot takes place around station building and a ridiculous amount of resources gathering,which is why I'm learning the trading system through asking questions etc.Also I have a Photon Pulse Cannon Forge as well as a CIG forge but those act as my personal forges where I can equip my ships with.But the other stations are just to get credits lol.How much do you guys reckon I put into each station that's selling, also for example if I have the SPP, will NPC's dock there and sell crystals now and then as long as there are credit's in my station or is it just your own ships that do the delivering,I'm really uncertain about this, since NPC's do dock with your station to buy your product but i'm not sure about selling anything to you.One last thing,is it possible to get your freighters to unload the freight on your station by themselves since I can't seem to find that option, all I get is " You're CIG forge would only take some of the E-Cells" instead of the specific amount of E-Cells that it needs.Damn feels like I asked a bunch of questions in just that one paragraph, my apologies.

Laughing Smile Very Happy


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Last edited by Star Fall on Thu, 28. Sep 17, 13:26; edited 1 time in total
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Star Fall





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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 13:22    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Jlehtone thanks for that explanation,I was figuring to build one in Black Hole sun, since I make a little more credits there thanks to the Xenon Invasions.

Regarding the Complexes do you think it would be a good idea to build multiple when at the point in the HUB plot when you need to start building stations ?

Thanks again for all the help guys


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 14:34    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

My head's spinning a little Razz but I'll try to answer one of the questions that I managed to separate out of that Very Happy heheheh
Yes, you can allow NPCs to dock at your station to sell you resources and buy your product. In most cases, I find that allowing this is disadvantageous: firstly, NPC ships tend to loiter in the docking bays, and so end up clogging up your parking lot - this ends up hampering ware flow, both in and out. Secondly, you end up having to settle for much less aggressive prices: buying resources more expensively, selling products for cheaper - ie. lower profits.

There are some cases where opening the docks to the public isn't bad, may even be advantageous, though: some players consider spacefuel 'plexes to be highly lucrative, but this ware comes with some problems - 1. it's illegal, so if your freighters get intercepted by cops, they (ie. YOU) lose the cargo = lost profitsssss, and 2. even if you are selling to each pirate base and IBL forge and what-not in the universe, you will saturate the market pretty quickly. However, if you open your station to visitors and set the price low enough to attract customers, you will find yourself selling a lot more than the universe can otherwise handle. The same can be true about selling weapons and ammo, especially since there's nowhere to sell these for more than average price anyway.

In the case of SPPs: crystals can seldom be bought for much below average, so having visiting ships deliver them would be OK in principle, though I don't know how reliable such supply is (I *always* use my own freighters to proactively buy and sell, so I have no experience with passively supplied SPPs). On the other hand, ECs can usually be sold for 18-19 each, which is way above the average (just under maximum, in fact), so allowing NPCs to come buy them is not a good idea - they will want to pay you ~16. So, if you allow docking at SPPs, set the sell price high and have CAG freighters to export the product, even if you allow NPCs to come deliver crystals to you.


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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 17:51    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Contrary to popular thought, stations aren't your real money-makers, traders are. Stations, if properly placed, can drastically increase the opportunities for your traders by supplying resources which would otherwise be in short supply, leading to idle production facilities, or by using up excess resources which would otherwise be wasted. Location is everything, and unless you know what's needed where, you're going to dump a lot of credits into marginally profitable stations.

As pointed out by jlehtone, one can potentially earn MORE by utilizing individual stations than by creating complexes, because your CAG traders can earn money at each of the intermediate stages, rather than only on the final output. Sometimes, however, you just want a guaranteed flow of materials to avoid down time, so I often attach a bio source to a food processing plant: Argnu + Cahoona mini-plex, or Bogas and Bofu combo, etc. Depending on the placement of it and competing AI bio and food facilities, it can either be more or less profitable to combine them.

Taking this a bit further, one can either work WITH the local economy, or compete AGAINST it and try to shut it down to force a player monopoly. Either way can be insanely profitable.

I also build a few stations to produce things which I can't easily purchase. This is a convenience thing, however, not a primary money-maker. At some point, the player's time and attention will become over-stretched to the point of not wanting to deal with anything else, at which point it becomes "practical" to create closed-loop complexes, just for the ease of "forgetting" them while they earn money, even if they generate a much lower return on the total investment.

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Nanook
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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 19:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
My head's spinning a little Razz but I'll try to answer one of the questions that I managed to separate out of that Very Happy heheheh
Yes, you can allow NPCs to dock at your station to sell you resources and buy your product. In most cases, I find that allowing this is disadvantageous: firstly, NPC ships tend to loiter in the docking bays, and so end up clogging up your parking lot - this ends up hampering ware flow, both in and out. Secondly, you end up having to settle for much less aggressive prices: buying resources more expensively, selling products for cheaper - ie. lower profits. ...


There's a third reason. You don't get any trade rank benefits when NPC ships buy and sell with your stations. Trade rank only increases when your ships do the trading.


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RAVEN.myst





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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 19:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Nanook wrote:
RAVEN.myst wrote:
My head's spinning a little Razz but I'll try to answer one of the questions that I managed to separate out of that Very Happy heheheh
Yes, you can allow NPCs to dock at your station to sell you resources and buy your product. In most cases, I find that allowing this is disadvantageous: firstly, NPC ships tend to loiter in the docking bays, and so end up clogging up your parking lot - this ends up hampering ware flow, both in and out. Secondly, you end up having to settle for much less aggressive prices: buying resources more expensively, selling products for cheaper - ie. lower profits. ...


There's a third reason. You don't get any trade rank benefits when NPC ships buy and sell with your stations. Trade rank only increases when your ships do the trading.

I didn't know this - thanks! Smile Do you know whether this also means that faction relations are similarly unaffected? (The logic would seem consistent, but I'd rather not jump to the assumption...)


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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 19:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Star Fall wrote:
Jlehtone thanks for that explanation,I was figuring to build one in Black Hole sun, since I make a little more credits there thanks to the Xenon Invasions.

No, I would not build in BHS. You do Serious Business there. Furthermore, the native Xenon can and will visit BHS occasionally. Less objects and less friendly targets keeps combat easier.

I have built Complexes that converted FPS into SPF. A fight when you see a new frame every five seconds is somewhat laggy?

The most likely reason for my freighters to die is that a combat mission takes place where they are and the reds beeline to them rather than consentrating on me. Old company saying: Beware the Boss!

Star Fall wrote:
Regarding the Complexes do you think it would be a good idea to build multiple when at the point in the HUB plot when you need to start building stations?

The "when" is preferably when you started a new game. Not later.

You obviously cannot possibly know at start that there will be a "HUB plot" and that it takes a couple units of something. I had some shady Palpatine fellow foretell my possible future. Yet, I did not build a thing. Not for a long time. I had freighters gathering, buying trinkets of putative value.

Tim's CLS2 Trapper Strategy would be ideal for foraging. Teladi

There were some Mineral requests. I had Mobile Miner ships. I had a CLS2 ship to transfer mined ware into TL in the same sector. I had a CLS2 ship to haul the ware from TL's into the Hub. No Mines. If you do build Mines, always do L.

For the last part, after exhausting patience (in about 20th ingame day), I did build three Complexes. Argon, Boron and Teladi to get wider food source. Each Complex had 36 end product factories. The Mobile Miner fleet did provide Silicon. Two CAG freighters in each Complex did buy food and energy from the natives. CLS1 freighter to deliver all products to the Hub.

108 Factories may seem a lot, but I simply wanted to do the remaining bits in couple hours. If I had started earlier, less would have been enough.


Yes, building in multiple locations is wise. If you do buy resources from NPC, then you cover more sources. If you want to sell to NPC, you will again cover more the market.

Note: the CAG can trade far as it can use JumpDrive, but the "find best offer" routine gets heavy with large trade area.
Note2: CAG is not restricted to the area, where its home is. You can tell a CAG that works for a Complex in Argon Prime to trade in Wastelands and its neighbor sectors.


Stations do by default allow NPC to trade with them. The "Trade with other races" option. It is easy to turn off.

Complexes do have Intermediate product trading option. The possible values are: None, Buy, Sell, Both. I think the default is "Buy".

Confusingly, the options are from the freighter's point of view. The Buy means that (NPC) freighter can buy (if price is right) intermediate ware from your Complex. The Sell ... someone could come and sell you more ware, if price is right and your Complex has credits to pay with.


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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 23:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If you really want to earn money, get into boarding. Cash coming in 50mil chunks from selling Destroyers is very nice.


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PostPosted: Thu, 28. Sep 17, 23:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

RAVEN.myst wrote:
Nanook wrote:
RAVEN.myst wrote:
My head's spinning a little Razz but I'll try to answer one of the questions that I managed to separate out of that Very Happy heheheh
Yes, you can allow NPCs to dock at your station to sell you resources and buy your product. In most cases, I find that allowing this is disadvantageous: firstly, NPC ships tend to loiter in the docking bays, and so end up clogging up your parking lot - this ends up hampering ware flow, both in and out. Secondly, you end up having to settle for much less aggressive prices: buying resources more expensively, selling products for cheaper - ie. lower profits. ...


There's a third reason. You don't get any trade rank benefits when NPC ships buy and sell with your stations. Trade rank only increases when your ships do the trading.

I didn't know this - thanks! Smile Do you know whether this also means that faction relations are similarly unaffected? (The logic would seem consistent, but I'd rather not jump to the assumption...)


You get faction rep no matter how the trade is done. It's why one of the best ways to gain rep with a faction whose stations you can't dock at is to place a factory in one of their border areas and let their traders dock and trade with it.


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