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Set primary product in complex and questions about logistics
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MrKincaid





Joined: 10 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Wed, 6. Sep 17, 22:35    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Timsup2nothin wrote:
I'm not sure, but from reading this it appears you are using CLS 1...the internal supplier. I use CLS 2 (external) for pretty much everything and can't really answer questions about CLS 1 very well. If you want to know how CLS 2 works there's a link to a guide in my sig.


Yes, I wanted to use the CLS1 for this because it seems he has a look at the stocks of all mines and the complex and only loads wares if they are needed somewhere else. At the moment I set up a CLS2 to do a supply run. First he loads as much energy cells as he can. Then flies to the ore mine, unloads as much ec as possible and loads the free space full with ore. Then he flies to the silicon mine, unloads as much ec as he can (if he still has some left), loads full with silicon wafers then flies to the second silicon mine and does the same. At last he flies back to the complex, unloads as much ore and silicon wafers as possible, loads ec and so on. The problem with this is that I produce more ore and silicon then I need. So the complex runs full of ore and the freighter can't unload everything leaving less space for ec. With every cycle there is more ore in the freighter and therefore less space for energy cells. At some point the freighter is full with ore and can't ship ec to the mines. Not a problem for the ore mine, the complex is full of ore anyways. But the silicon mine also don't get energy cells which means no silicon wafers in the complex -> no crystals -> no energy cells and the production stops.

Also, setting this up was a pain in the ass. You need a lots of clicks to add the waypoints. And I used a new untrained CLS for that (only 4 stations in the same sector, so he is capable to do this). But because you can just set 4 waypoints for the untrained CLS you can't add actions to existing waypoints once you added the fourth. I had to set the waypoints on one of my trained CAGs, then save it, load it at the untrained CLS and then edit every load/unload because of the higher cargo limit in the actual CLS.

I will have a look at your link to see if there is a better solution.

Quote:
Are the Mines in same sector?


They are. I wanted to avoid moving the mines. I found it more challenging and interesting to set up a proper supply route with freighters. I was hoping CLS1 would be good enough to supply multiple stations at the same time. I mean, he is already at the mine and he has to fly back to the complex. Why shouldn't he load some ore and silicon wafers when he flies back? But it looks like this will be the way I'll do it. Otherwise I would need 3 freighters with 3 pilots who get paid for flying around with no cargo, half full or just sitting around doing nothing. Not gonna pay these lazy paranids for nothing. Very Happy

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ajime





Joined: 15 May 2017
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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Sep 17, 08:32    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
Timsup2nothin wrote:
I'm not sure, but from reading this it appears you are using CLS 1...the internal supplier. I use CLS 2 (external) for pretty much everything and can't really answer questions about CLS 1 very well. If you want to know how CLS 2 works there's a link to a guide in my sig.


Yes, I wanted to use the CLS1 for this because it seems he has a look at the stocks of all mines and the complex and only loads wares if they are needed somewhere else. At the moment I set up a CLS2 to do a supply run. First he loads as much energy cells as he can. Then flies to the ore mine, unloads as much ec as possible and loads the free space full with ore. Then he flies to the silicon mine, unloads as much ec as he can (if he still has some left), loads full with silicon wafers then flies to the second silicon mine and does the same. At last he flies back to the complex, unloads as much ore and silicon wafers as possible, loads ec and so on. The problem with this is that I produce more ore and silicon then I need. So the complex runs full of ore and the freighter can't unload everything leaving less space for ec. With every cycle there is more ore in the freighter and therefore less space for energy cells. At some point the freighter is full with ore and can't ship ec to the mines. Not a problem for the ore mine, the complex is full of ore anyways. But the silicon mine also don't get energy cells which means no silicon wafers in the complex -> no crystals -> no energy cells and the production stops.

Also, setting this up was a pain in the ass. You need a lots of clicks to add the waypoints. And I used a new untrained CLS for that (only 4 stations in the same sector, so he is capable to do this). But because you can just set 4 waypoints for the untrained CLS you can't add actions to existing waypoints once you added the fourth. I had to set the waypoints on one of my trained CAGs, then save it, load it at the untrained CLS and then edit every load/unload because of the higher cargo limit in the actual CLS.

I will have a look at your link to see if there is a better solution.

Quote:
Are the Mines in same sector?


They are. I wanted to avoid moving the mines. I found it more challenging and interesting to set up a proper supply route with freighters. I was hoping CLS1 would be good enough to supply multiple stations at the same time. I mean, he is already at the mine and he has to fly back to the complex. Why shouldn't he load some ore and silicon wafers when he flies back? But it looks like this will be the way I'll do it. Otherwise I would need 3 freighters with 3 pilots who get paid for flying around with no cargo, half full or just sitting around doing nothing. Not gonna pay these lazy paranids for nothing. Very Happy
I prefered to load in small quantities for each item though. I Keep my HQ supplied with 1 CLS2 only with more than 30 waypoints(per destination) to supply all items. One time pain Wink

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MrKincaid





Joined: 10 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Sep 17, 17:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

When I tell him to load 100 ore and then I flies his route, coming back to the complex and there is only room for 20 ore he keeps 80 in his freighter. Then he flies back to the mine and loads 100 again then he already has 180 in the freighter. This would build up too. It would take longer until he is full with one product, but it would still happen.

@Timsup2nothin

I read your guide. First of all it was great, very nice to read and I learned a lot from it. Thanks for that. But, on thing I learned: Don't try to make routes with multiple products. It works if you let your CLS unload between every buy in a storage vessel. But I don't think this will work if he has load on every flight.

For example:
1. Fly to storage, unload all and load full of energy cells.
2. Fly to complex, load full of energy cells
3. Fly to mine, unload all ec and load full of ore
4. Fly to complex, unload ore

Problem is: When he flies to the mine but they don't need much ec there is not much room to load ore. I would have to edit it like this:

1. Fly to storage, unload all and load full of energy cells.
2. Fly to complex, load full of energy cells
3. Fly to mine, unload all ec and load full of ore
4. Fly to storage, unload ec
5. Fly to mine, load ore
6. Fly to complex, unload ore

This way, if he loads full with ore after his first visit on the mine he would skip 4 and 5 and bring it to the complex. If he has some ec left he would unload them into the storage, then fly back to the mine, load ore and after that he brings the ore to the complex. 6 Waypoints just for one mine and I have 3 of them. For now. The complex will grow and there will be more mines in the future. And there is lots of flying back and forth, doesn't seem very effective.

I guess my only options are buying two more freighters and equip them with CLS1 and let every CLS handle one ware or to move the mines to the complex and connect them.

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jlehtone



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Joined: 23 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Thu, 7. Sep 17, 19:17    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
The complex will grow and there will be more mines in the future.

This is where we will go next.

So far we know that there are at least four implementations for transferring wares:
  • Tractor and Tubes. One Complex to hold them all.
  • Each Station has Trader(s) to buy and sell.
  • CLS1 pushing products to consumers.
  • CLS2 ferrying wares around.

We do(?) know what it takes to set them up and what it takes to keep them running. Each has ups and downs.

Now we go for more stations. How does each of these solutions scale up or out? What does it take to add one more Mine?

At some point one will reach scale, where the throughput of a freighter becomes significant. Up to now we have looked at 3 CLS1 vs 1 CLS2. What is true for three wares and four stations might not hold when stations are ten or hundred.

How many producers and consumers can one (top level) CLS1 ship serve sufficiently? How many Mines can that first ECell CLS1 keep running?

Lets assume that you do build enough to push the three CLS1 to their limit. Now replace them with three CLS2 ships. Will they be equally loaded, or is one more efficient than the other? I don't know the answer.

Apart from the maximal throughput of each optimally configured implementation is the question of what does it take to create that optimal configuration?


CLS2 has multiple options for how much to load/buy/sell/unload. Some of those should be better at avoiding full cargobay than others. Tim?

Note that one Silicon Wafer costs 24 ECells to mine and Ore Mine consumes 6 ECells per 1 Ore. The CLS2 should deliver/fetch by those ratios. If the CLS brings in more energy than it loads minerals, then the Mine's ECells stock fills unnecessarily. Worse yet, undersupply of energy will stall the Mine.


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Timsup2nothin





Joined: 22 Jan 2009



PostPosted: Thu, 7. Sep 17, 19:47    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Thanks for the good review.

The command you are needing is the 'up to' command. Instead of 'load 100 ore' use 'load up to 100 ore.' If he pulls in and still has 80 left he will 'top off' to the designated hundred and move on.

I usually try to not mix loads, but there are situations where it is the best solution and you may have gotten into one.

That said, the 'truth' that I came to operate by at some point that changed my perspective is: freighters are cheap. Usually that leads me to solve problems by just using more ships. I just started using a mod that charges maintenance fees for ships and stations, so my perspective might change, but generally speaking.


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MrKincaid





Joined: 10 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Fri, 8. Sep 17, 02:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Quote:
freighters are cheap.

True. That's why I decided for now to go with 3 CLS1. I had to buy 2 more freighters and it cost me a couple million credits with alle the upgrades. I have a single universe trader that somehow started to make a shitload of credits. He made a few thousand credits per hour when I was saving for my first SPP and crystal fab, then suddenly he must have found a goldmine or something and when I was looking at my bank account to see if I already have the money for the soyery I suddenly was at 40 million. Enough to build the complex and after the complex was finished and I tried to figure out how to transport alle the stuff I was up at 150 million credits. So no Problem to just buy to more Lotans and let them do the work.

I also decided to use the CLS1 because they are smarter. The energiesupplier brings ec to the mine that needs them most. No more loading the ore mine full with ec before he starts bringing them to the silicon mine that ran dry.

Long story short: If there is a problem, just throw credits at it. Very Happy

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