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Set primary product in complex and questions about logistics
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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 20:29    Post subject: Set primary product in complex and questions about logistics Reply with quote Print

I am building my first complex in Albion Prelude. For now there is a silicon mine, crystal fab and solar power plant. Now that every product is used by another part of the complex there are only intermediate products and ressources. Are there scripts or mods to set a product as the primary product that should be sold?



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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 21:19    Post subject: Re: Set primary product in complex Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
I am building my first complex in Albion Prelude. For now there is a silicon mine, crystal fab and solar power plant. Now that every product is used by another part of the complex there are only intermediate products and ressources. Are there scripts or mods to set a product as the primary product that should be sold?


CAGs can be set to sell only designated products, whether they are intermediate or not. If you want to have the complex open for trading with other races you can control what they buy through your price settings. If you set the price on an intermediate product at average or above they generally won't buy it.


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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 21:31    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

That's how I handle it for now. But this also means that this trader only sells energy cells even if there is a shortage of any of the intermediate products. Also you would have to set this for every CAG itself. And if, for some reason, all the energy cells get sold then the CAG will go and buy them for 20 credits (maximum price because nothing in stock) and then after bringing them to the complex and the stock is over the threshold it will take the recently bought cells and sells them for 18 (minimum price because many in stock). A global setting at the complex would be much more comfortable and with the energy cells as primary product they will never be bought.

Making other ships buy by setting the price below average is also not a good option. Why should I sell them for 14 when I can sell them for 20?

Edit: Oh, and then there is also the problem that new CAGs only can buy resources. He must level up to Trader first before he can sell and buy intermediate products. If you build a new complex and have no CAG to spare from another complex then you first have to assign a CAG that levels up to trader only by buying ressources while you can only assign a normal factory trader to sell stuff. You can't blacklist or whitelist items for them, so he would sell all the intermediate products and also there is no dynamic pricing for factory traders.

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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 21:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

CAGs can be set with a threshold inventory value. That is, they will not sell any intermediate product if the inventory is below X% of capacity. So they won't "sell you out" of something that you need. You might need to adjust that value based on production at your complex and the cycle times of your factories.

As to pricing, a CAG will do the best it can within the price parameter you set. In other words, if you set the price of e-cells at 16 and have a CAG designated as an e-cell buyer it will get the best deal it can find within range, but will never pay above 16. Another CAG designated as an e-cell seller will get the best deal it can find within range, but never sell for less than 16. Unless your market is really swamped almost all of your purchases will be below, and almost all of your sales will be above, and the worst that can happen is some cells will pass through on a break even.


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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 22:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I wouldn't have a problem with a CAG selling all my energy cells. They are the product I want to sell. I would have a problem with a CAG buying any energy cells. I could work around this be setting the CAG to a salesman, I guess he would only sell then. But this negates one advantage of the CAGs: You don't need designated buyers or sellers. The ships can do both. And as far as I understood they even do the same in one run. Loading products, jumping to a station where they can sell, then jump to a station nearby that has resources, buys them and comes back to the complex. This wouldn't work with designated buyers and sellers.

About the pricing: I understand it works like this:

I set the minimum and maximum for energy cells (as product) to 16 and 20.

Now the stock is full and the script sets the price to 16 to have more options to sell them. If the stock is empty it sets the price to 20. The opposite for ressources. Here you would set the prices like 12-16. If you don't have any the price is set to 16, if your stock is full the price is set to 12. (Exactly like tha dynamic prices on all the stations work.)

Of course if the price to buy is set to 20 that doesn't mean the CAG buys for 20, he still takes the best offer he can find. The problem here is that you can only set one price for buying and selling, but that's an issue with the game, not the CAGs.

Anyways, all these are workarounds that wouldn't be necessary if there was an option to set an intermediate product to a primary product. That's why I asked if that is somehow possible. Smile

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 23:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

You do use the CAG dynamic pricing function? Interesting. I've never touched it. I like my fixed prices.


The CAG has adjustable limits. The Trade Duties menu:
Quote:
Purchasing Intermediates
The Agent will buy intermediate wares if their stock at the complex is below this value. This value is also when selling intermediate wares; the Agent will always leave at least this much in the complex in order to safeguard production.

Selling Intermediate Products
The Agent can sell intermediate wares if the stock level exceeds this value.

Push the purchase limit down. Then the CAG has little reason to buy ECells.
Push the sell limit somewhat down too, so that the Complex won't keep huge stock.

I see no huge problem in buying ECells. They are probably cheap. If the CAG then proceeds to sell those same ECells, it will get a better price; there will be profitsss.

Not only credits, but transactions with the NPC too. Those could improve both Trade Rank and Race Reputation.

Besides, if you buy all the cheap energy from NPC SPP's, then the NPC Energy Traders will drift elsewhere and your CAG might have better chance to find/reach "better" NPC energy consumers.

I'd fix the intermediate prices at average and let the CAG do its thing.


CLS and CAG pilots are exchangeable. One can "train" a pilot with CLS2 already before one has any Stations.

One can transfer pilot from one station to another. I have non-loop stations, where my CAGs learn. There are some slots to save/restore config.

One could, on a "learning station" that has two CAG's, have the experienced as Salesman that leaves all purchases to the apprentice and ensures by selling that the Station craves for more resources.


The trivial "workaround" (that requires one more ship) is to not connect the SPP into the Complex. Then you have products.


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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Mon, 4. Sep 17, 23:53    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I like the dynamic pricing. I don't want to sell my energy cells for 14 credits per unit. If there is no customer who is willing to pay 20 credits I can wait until they run dry and pay the price. However, if my stock runs full I have to sell them or else I can't produce energy cells which means I am losing credits. So if this happens I want to sell them cheaper to make space for production.

You have a point with buying cheap cells at other factories and selling them with profit. This would also have the advantage that no one else can buy cheap cells when I bought them all and they have to pay the higher price. But again: The problem here is that there is only one price I can set. If I want to buy cheap cells and sell them at high prizes I would have the set the minimum and maximum to 12 to 20. But then the CAG could sell at 14 or buy at 16, depending on the stock. I don't know why egosoft thought it would be good to have one price setting for buying AND selling. It would have been easy for them to make two options: a selling price and a buying price.

Didn't know of the CLS yet. To be honest, I don't fully understand what it does. I just tell him to sell a product of his homebase, set a price and he goes off and sells the product? And when you make him a CAG he keeps his level?

Quote:
One can transfer pilot from one station to another. I have non-loop stations, where my CAGs learn. There are some slots to save/restore config.


Of course you can. You even must do this. At the first level they only buy ressources so you need to level them at least once to have them sell products. But levelling three times is much more time consuming. And again: Just because you can't say that this is my product I want to sell. Just because you also use this product to manufacture more of it doesn't mean that this isn't your product anymore. I produce and sell energy cells. I don't know why it shouldn't be possible to do it in a complex the same way I would do it in a SPP.

Quote:
The trivial "workaround" (that requires one more ship) is to not connect the SPP into the Complex. Then you have products.


Still a workaround. And, as you said, it requires an additional ship and more logistics. A simple "this is the thing i want to sell" would solve all the problems. Before I start to look for workarounds I want to check if there really is no solution. Wink

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Sinxar



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PostPosted: Tue, 5. Sep 17, 00:45    Post subject: Re: Set primary product in complex Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
Are there scripts or mods to set a product as the primary product that should be sold?


Yes it is included in the bonus pack for Albion Prelude. I didn't answer when I first seen the post because I assumed the others knew and could provide detailed instructions to get to it but since that doesn't seem to be the case...

It is the Global Administration (part of the CAG script) and you may have to set a hotkey to get to it. You can switch products between primary and intermediate by clicking on it.

Look here under Global Administration: https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=275924

The place where you switch the product is "Complex settings". Just scroll down or search for Global Administration to find it quickly in that thread.


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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Tue, 5. Sep 17, 00:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Oh wow, I knew of that Menu, it's where I set the dynamic prices. I didn't know you can just hit enter on an intermediate product and it becomes the main product of the complex. Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks. Smile

And also thanks to jlehtone for the discussion, it also really helped me. Smile

Great to have such a helpful and nice community even for a game that is 6 years old now. Smile

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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Tue, 5. Sep 17, 02:41    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I just have to say that if you are waiting for a price of 20 you are likely in for a very long wait. A production cycle takes a number of e-cells to start...say 30 at some random example factory. If the factory has 17 in stock it cannot produce...so that 17 is never going anywhere and the price will never rise from 19 to 20. Eventually someone will come along and sell at 19 and the odds are 29 to one against them hitting an even multiple that will lead to a price of 20 the next time around either, since to have a price of 20 they must have zero in stock.


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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Tue, 5. Sep 17, 11:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

The same is true for my complex. The price will only be set to 20 when there are almost no cells left. If there is no one who pays 20 for them the price will gradually go down to 17.

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Tue, 5. Sep 17, 20:14    Post subject: Re: Set primary product in complex Reply with quote Print

It could be interesting to have statistics over longer period.
The CAG has "Trade Log" in "Configure Reports" that should write data to a text file.
  • Fixed ECell price at 16cr.
  • Dynamic 16--20cr pricing.

How many transactions CAG does in each case? Amounts, actual prices?

In other words, one should be able to show whether pricing makes a difference, and if yes, how much.


Sinxar wrote:
Yes it is included in the bonus pack for Albion Prelude. I didn't answer when I first seen the post because I assumed the others knew and could provide detailed instructions to get to it but since that doesn't seem to be the case...

Embarassed Gosh, totally forgot that feature (along the rest of CAG globals). I've seen the BP manual(s), for the feature was already in the X3TC CAG, long before actually playing X3TC/AP.


MrKincaid wrote:
Didn't know of the CLS yet. To be honest, I don't fully understand what it does.

No Sir. Not it. Them. There are two CLS (Commodity Logistics Software): CLS1 (Internal Logistics) and CLS2 (External Logistics).

CLS1 first appeared (essentially) in X2. It is the equivalent and forefather of Complex Construction Kit. Just like the tubes, the CLS1 transfers (intermediate) wares from player producers into player consumers. Tubes are nice, but not everything can be connected to a single Complex.

I have a Hammer Forge. It has CAG. The Forge buys only cheap resources and is willing to sell Hammers at average-1. I do not expect it to ever sell.

I have a Dock. It has a CAG. It trades Hammers at average-1. In theory it could buy cheap Hammers from NPC and sell to NPC Docks.

The Forge has a CLS1 too. Set to deliver Hammers to my Dock. I have set it to charge a price for each delivered missile. Price that barely covers the production costs. Price clearly below average. My Dock funds the Forge, but the Forge does not make profit. If the Dock sells to NPC, it will make good profit.

I have a CLS2 ship at the Dock. It does buy (it could simply load) Hammers from my Dock at average-1. The CLS2 is set (by default) to take/put credits from the player account.

There you have it. When I go to War, I take some missiles with me. The CLS2 refills from the Dock and transfers credits from player account into the Dock's account. The CLS1 refills the Dock and transfers credits from Dock to Forge. The Forge gets enough credits to produce a new batch of missiles.


CLS2 does not need any home. CLS2 can trade. It is like a train on predetermined route. More involving to set up, but with imagination and diligence an amazing tool.

For better CLS2 examples, look at Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2 (in signature of Timsup2nothin).


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MrKincaid





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PostPosted: Wed, 6. Sep 17, 18:19    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I had a look at the CLS now because my complex is ready and I have to deliver Ore and Silicon to the complex and Energy Cells from the complex to the mines. Can this be done with on CLS?

It looks to me that I would need 3 CLS. One with the complex as the homebase that supplies the mines with energy cells. One with the ore mine as homebase that supplies the complex with ore and one with one of the silicon mines as homebase that supplies the complex with silicon from both mines. If I set the ore mine as homebase there is no option for me to set the silicon mines as suppliers. Is this correct? Is there a better way to supply the mines with cells from the complex and bring ore and silicon from the mines to the complex?

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Timsup2nothin





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PostPosted: Wed, 6. Sep 17, 20:03    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
I had a look at the CLS now because my complex is ready and I have to deliver Ore and Silicon to the complex and Energy Cells from the complex to the mines. Can this be done with on CLS?

It looks to me that I would need 3 CLS. One with the complex as the homebase that supplies the mines with energy cells. One with the ore mine as homebase that supplies the complex with ore and one with one of the silicon mines as homebase that supplies the complex with silicon from both mines. If I set the ore mine as homebase there is no option for me to set the silicon mines as suppliers. Is this correct? Is there a better way to supply the mines with cells from the complex and bring ore and silicon from the mines to the complex?


I'm not sure, but from reading this it appears you are using CLS 1...the internal supplier. I use CLS 2 (external) for pretty much everything and can't really answer questions about CLS 1 very well. If you want to know how CLS 2 works there's a link to a guide in my sig.


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On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!
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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Wed, 6. Sep 17, 20:30    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

MrKincaid wrote:
Is this correct?

Yes, for CLS1. Easy to set up.

Single CLS2 ship can probably do it. Slightly more clicks to start. I suppose.


Are the Mines in same sector?

If they are, then they can be connected to form a Complex. Complex that has both Ore and Wafers as Products. Then one CLS1 can haul both Mineral types.

Tractor Beam (Paranid tend to make/sell them) in M6 and you can tow a Mine close enough to others in order to join into Complex. Towing in X3TC/AP is very easy (compared to X3R, particularly the very first tow implementation in X3R).


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