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MrFiction



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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 21:13    Post subject: Mega complexes vs multiple small ones Reply with quote Print

My plan is to setup a few large complexes to mainly supply my own ships and make some profit on the side. I'm thinking about something like a selfsustaining complex producing most available shields and/or weapons. For example, three factories of each shield type, 1MJ, 5MJ, 2G, etc combined with the necessary resources.

As an alternative I'm looking into a few non self sustaining factories combined with CLS1 ships.

So, before I start this expensive and time consuming project, can anyone suggest what option is better? So far my medium sized complexes do pretty well but I've never gone of 100 million for a single complex.

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TTD





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 21:38    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If you are in a well defended or protected region ,covering several sectors holding all the resources you need, then a few small complexes, spread over a few sectors might be useful.
But if you are holding down just one or two sectors, a megaplex, although expensive, might be better.


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hisazul





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 21:57    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

As someone who "recently" had ~2k station plex, all I'm going to say is that it's a matter of tolerance and patience. Both have their benefits and downsides.

Megaplex generates lag even OOS, building in that sector is abysmally painful due to lag but it requires very few ships to support it.

Multiple stations or smaller complexes on the other hand require more ships, defense and logistics but it keeps economy more alive and a lot less laggy.


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MrFiction



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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 22:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

hisazul wrote:
As someone who "recently" had ~2k station plex, all I'm going to say is that it's a matter of tolerance and patience. Both have their benefits and downsides.

Megaplex generates lag even OOS, building in that sector is abysmally painful due to lag but it requires very few ships to support it.

Multiple stations or smaller complexes on the other hand require more ships, defense and logistics but it keeps economy more alive and a lot less laggy.

So far I haven't experienced lag but I'm no where near 2k stations. Anyway, did you follow the excellent advice glenmcd has on mega complexes? It seems that using his setup even extremely large complexes can be constructed without any noticeable lag.

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 23:40    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

hisazul wrote:
... it keeps economy more alive ...

This.

More trade with NPC yields more credits, reputation and trade rank. Trade rank and reputation affect generic mission rewards. More trade leads to more profitsss.

In X3R I had several large, selfsufficient, closed loop (sector)complexes that did produce weapons. Those complexes never did trade with the NPC, never earned a credit. "Sectorcomplex" as in "has a Mine on every Asteroid of the sector". "Large" as in "if I can buy it all in one go (i.e. with 2bil credits), then it is not large".

They were (peculiar sort of) fun to build (aka masochistic when frames-per-second changes to seconds-per-frame), but nothing more. That did lead to a game of X3TC, where only that last task in the Xenon Hub made me build some Chip Plants (and only them). A game without stations.

Current X3AP game I have mainly "Forge L"s as in "Complex of 5 weapon X Stations". Commercial Agents trade everything. If the NPC food production near a Complex seems lacking, then I like to add standalone Bio and Food Stations.

Minimal amount of building, maximal amount of trade. (Credits still don't bother me, but this yields them nevertheless.)



Not all products are needed in similar amounts. While it takes a bit longer to craft one PPC than some PAC, the fighter wings of just one Carrier eat a lot of PAC, and must be more expendable (by rules of combat) than Destroyers.


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ajime





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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 05:24    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
hisazul wrote:
... it keeps economy more alive ...

This.

More trade with NPC yields more credits, reputation and trade rank. Trade rank and reputation affect generic mission rewards. More trade leads to more profitsss.

In X3R I had several large, selfsufficient, closed loop (sector)complexes that did produce weapons. Those complexes never did trade with the NPC, never earned a credit. "Sectorcomplex" as in "has a Mine on every Asteroid of the sector". "Large" as in "if I can buy it all in one go (i.e. with 2bil credits), then it is not large".

They were (peculiar sort of) fun to build (aka masochistic when frames-per-second changes to seconds-per-frame), but nothing more. That did lead to a game of X3TC, where only that last task in the Xenon Hub made me build some Chip Plants (and only them). A game without stations.

Current X3AP game I have mainly "Forge L"s as in "Complex of 5 weapon X Stations". Commercial Agents trade everything. If the NPC food production near a Complex seems lacking, then I like to add standalone Bio and Food Stations.

Minimal amount of building, maximal amount of trade. (Credits still don't bother me, but this yields them nevertheless.)



Not all products are needed in similar amounts. While it takes a bit longer to craft one PPC than some PAC, the fighter wings of just one Carrier eat a lot of PAC, and must be more expendable (by rules of combat) than Destroyers.

Yeah. im probably more than 500 hours of ingame and had a logistical nightmare. still collecting those 90k out of the 400k silicon for the hub. its amazing digging out the old threads in this forum and see so many things i missed out. didn't realize hyperion had 2 hangar bays untill today. i raged so much. Laughing
Had fun watching my freighters carry ore/silicon from savage spur-ore belt-aladna hill-avarice is satisfying. but the logistical support is such a nightmare to have m2/m7's on each gate to ensure my 8 chokaro's survive sending them across the galaxy. Btw my first post here. Cool

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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 07:28    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

ajime wrote:
Had fun watching my freighters carry ore/silicon from savage spur-ore belt-aladna hill-avarice is satisfying. but the logistical support is such a nightmare to have m2/m7's on each gate to ensure my 8 chokaro's survive sending them across the galaxy. Btw my first post here. Cool

Welcome, pilot. Smile

Dare I tell you ...

"Safe" sectors like Kingdom's End have small rocks. A ship can run 'Collect rocks'. OOS the rocks last forever in X3TC. Imagine 10 TS miners in a sector. Add one TL ship. Add one CLS2 (External Commodity Logistics from Bonuspack). TS that loads the collected mineral from the miners and unloads into the TL.

Add second top level CLS2 that loads mineral from the TL, is set to use JumpDrive, and both unloads minerals and refuels at a Station. That Station is either the Hub or (array of) Chip Plant, etc. No nightmares "on the route".


Small rocks do not last in X3R and X3AP. However, one can detonate an Asteroid to produce more small rocks. The Asteroid does respawn eventually.

(If you do build a Mine on Asteroid, the Asteroid is gone for good. Do not detonate a Mine except to get rid of an Asteroid permanently; no rocks left.)


If you get the minerals from your Mine, hire a CLS1 (Internal Commodity Logistics). Like CLS2, it can jump (once experienced). CLS1 is designed for hauling from producer(s) (like a player Mine) into consumer(s) (like player's weapon Complex). CLS1 is older than the Complex Construction Kit.


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ajime





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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 09:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
ajime wrote:
Had fun watching my freighters carry ore/silicon from savage spur-ore belt-aladna hill-avarice is satisfying. but the logistical support is such a nightmare to have m2/m7's on each gate to ensure my 8 chokaro's survive sending them across the galaxy. Btw my first post here. Cool

Welcome, pilot. Smile

Dare I tell you ...

"Safe" sectors like Kingdom's End have small rocks. A ship can run 'Collect rocks'. OOS the rocks last forever in X3TC. Imagine 10 TS miners in a sector. Add one TL ship. Add one CLS2 (External Commodity Logistics from Bonuspack). TS that loads the collected mineral from the miners and unloads into the TL.

Add second top level CLS2 that loads mineral from the TL, is set to use JumpDrive, and both unloads minerals and refuels at a Station. That Station is either the Hub or (array of) Chip Plant, etc. No nightmares "on the route".


Small rocks do not last in X3R and X3AP. However, one can detonate an Asteroid to produce more small rocks. The Asteroid does respawn eventually.

(If you do build a Mine on Asteroid, the Asteroid is gone for good. Do not detonate a Mine except to get rid of an Asteroid permanently; no rocks left.)


If you get the minerals from your Mine, hire a CLS1 (Internal Commodity Logistics). Like CLS2, it can jump (once experienced). CLS1 is designed for hauling from producer(s) (like a player Mine) into consumer(s) (like player's weapon Complex). CLS1 is older than the Complex Construction Kit.
actually i made a grave mistake of blowing up rocks in Savage Spur just to allow my capships passing through the middle while in system. Then i tried manual mining to get rid of the rocks but they kept spawning. read the forums afterwards then i facepalmed. i probably blew up more than 20 roids there. and now the system has 100 lasertower as fence defence homebased on a diemos garrison.

On another note does the CLS1/CLS2 simply updates the vanilla game or do you get **modified** etc. been using vanilla and i never bothered to install since i bought it from steam. didnt see the option to install directly from steam though.i was actually hoping it was bundled together when i bought Laughing

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Alan Phipps
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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 13:20    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@ ajme: The official Bonus Packs (BPs) do not make your vanilla games modified because they are *signed* scripts (meaning they are checked and approved by Egosoft). If you look at the BP sticky, it tells you all you need to know about them and even has the direct links for the Steam free BP downloads.


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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 18:38    Post subject: Re: Mega complexes vs multiple small ones Reply with quote Print

MrFiction wrote:
My plan is to setup a few large complexes to mainly supply my own ships and make some profit on the side. I'm thinking about something like a selfsustaining complex producing most available shields and/or weapons. For example, three factories of each shield type, 1MJ, 5MJ, 2G, etc combined with the necessary resources...


What is purpose of above shields' factories ?

You can buy shields, if you have credits to equip ships in Shipyards from nearby Equipment Dock.


Each ship has few shields only and many weapon slots.


More necessary usable Missiles, which can be spent by dozens and hundreds during one battle.


MrFiction wrote:
...
So, before I start this expensive and time consuming project, can anyone suggest what option is better? So far my medium sized complexes do pretty well but I've never gone of 100 million for a single complex.


Built by me self-sustaining complexes (in the few saved games with different starts) worth more than 100 millions credits.

There are not thousands, but few hundreds factories.

Also I had built them in sectors, which I not use for fight, which are far from enemies.

Since these complexes not require sellers and buyers, then they are far from gates and NPC stations.

From time to time I can fill TS+ Mistral by Energy cells (there is reserve more than 1 million Energy Cells always in each of the complexes) or Missiles in one of the complexes for my own needs and order them to jump and fly to any station or ship in the any sector.

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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 20:18    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Lets rephrase: small vs big is a minor factor.

Self-sufficient vs not self-sufficient is an important decision.
Within self-sufficient complexes there are open and closed.


Lets conjure some terms.

Array -- Complex of stations that produce end product(s) and need all resources for it. Example: an array of 10 Ghoul Forges. Another example: array of every Argon weapon Forge type.

Pipeline -- chain of stations that convert ECells into one end product. Example: Silicon Mine, Cattle Ranch, Cahoona Bakery and Crystal Fab form a "crystal production pipeline". Another exmaple: Wheat Farm and Distillery -- SpaceFuel from Ecells.

Loop: crystal production pipeline + SPP. The pipeline produces enough crystals for the use of the SPP and about 43% of the SPP's production is enough to run the pipeline. Result: no resource purchases required and produces ECells. Self-sufficient. Loop does not have resources or products, only intermediate products.


Now we can connect pipelines to the loop. These pipelines produce "end products" from the ECells that the loop provides. Self-sufficient.


Now back to the Open and Closed.

If the Self-sufficient construct is closed, then it by design runs undisturbed and without any contact to the outside world. A completely closed complex, as mentioned by AleksMain, does not trade the end product and thus does not exists for the NPC economy.

An open complex does trade, preferably all the wares that it has. CAG (Commercial Agent) can be tuned to trade everything, yet secure the necessary resources for the operation of the member Stations. You have control of what the open complex does trade.


It is not easy to have "perfectly balanced, closed self-sufficient system". If some link is too weak, there is no self-sufficiency If something is oversized, then there is overproduction and, as implied, the intermediate product stocks will become full of ware. "1 million Energy Cells in reserve" and "billion credits in bank" are nonprofitable (but convenient).


Inclusion of the loop, even the smallest possible, does increase the size of a Complex.


Back to the Question.

1. Do I want to trade with the NPC (or anyone)? If, for security, the answer is NO, then self-sufficient closed Complex is the answer, and the followup question is: really big ones, or many smaller? Asteroid content of the acceptable sectors sets the limits.

2. You want to trade. How much?
Can the NPC economy sustain mere Arrays?
Can the NPC SPPs sustain Pipelines?

You could build one huge array or spread production. CAGs can fetch from entire X-Universe, but shorter search ranges are more efficient in the script engine.

If the NPC cannot fuel all of your production, then self-sufficient, or almost self-sufficient open complexes are appropriate.


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PostPosted: Tue, 16. May 17, 20:21    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Depends on the product, if it's one of the limitless markets (guns, booze or weed) go as big as you can/want.
All other products have a finite market which will limit how many you want to build.
Shields aren't a problem just use the L/M/S options on the ship purchase screen.
You might want to build a 'plex to supply your HQ and there are designs out there for that.


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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 00:10    Post subject: Re: Mega complexes vs multiple small ones Reply with quote Print

AleksMain wrote:
What is purpose of above shields' factories ?
to make money from small shield fabs (from NPCs) & build up a stock of large shields (that NPCs only produce very slowly) to equip the battlefleet. Medium sheilds (esp 25MJ) can go either way..
Quote:
More necessary usable Missiles, which can be spent by dozens and hundreds during one battle.
can't disagree with that..


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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 11:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

for more info on complexes and dealing with the hub plot, check my story tutorial which started off in TC and finish in AP, iirc.

https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=262430&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=180

start from page 13, to get straight into building complexes, and using the same coords for like-stations. eg 6x dream farms built within each other, all connected to each other.

This was once impossible to do , but unless recent patches has messed with it, it works fine...you just have to be quick


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ajime





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PostPosted: Thu, 18. May 17, 04:48    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Alan Phipps wrote:
@ ajme: The official Bonus Packs (BPs) do not make your vanilla games modified because they are *signed* scripts (meaning they are checked and approved by Egosoft). If you look at the BP sticky, it tells you all you need to know about them and even has the direct links for the Steam free BP downloads.
thanks for the info. managed to installed it from steam yesterday and had fun trying it out.

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