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[X3TC] Midgame, not sure where to invest
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amoe





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 11:56    Post subject: [X3TC] Midgame, not sure where to invest Reply with quote Print

Hi there,

I'm about half way through the Final Fury plot. One of the Kha'ak missions is totally impossible with my current M6-level combat resources. I guess that I must have increased my combat rank to an unreasonable level by shooting so many Kha'ak in-sector on the previous missions. After playing this mission so many times, I decided that I probably needed an M2.

So, I've now saved up the ~75M that I would need to buy the Terran Osaka. However I do not have the rank to buy this ship. I figure that it will probably take me quite a long time to gain the needed reputation from doing missions in Terran sectors. So my question is: Say I have 40M to invest in the meantime, what's going to give the best results?

I already have ~8 UTs, and about 8 complexes. I'm not that interested in just buying more complexes or UTs, because I'm slightly bored of them. Of course, if there was some incredibly profitable complex, I could probably be tempted. But it seems that just gradually adding more and more stations to my station view is not really the way the game should be played. (Combat is cool, but I want to avoid increasing my combat rank at the moment.)

Thanks for any advice!
Dave

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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 12:43    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

First a disclaimer: I did get the Xtreme Combat rank first, before going into Final Fury, just to see some "action". There wasn't enough, IMO. That is all that I can remember about FF.


M2 is not the only "more power" solution above M6. The M7 classes have both gunships and missile launchers. The latter practically need a support complex for ammo, for the NPC production is limited. Missile barrage can level a sector much quicker than an M2.

Lasertowers and Fighter Drones en masse are a powerful weapon. Mere unarmed Boron Dolphin can kill a lot with them.


Is there a reason for looking at Terran ships? The Commonwealth has a good selection too.

Generic missions do yield reputation rather quickly, although within Terran sectors things are probably more demanding.

Trade yields reputation too. Do your Complexes trade all their wares?


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amoe





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 13:05    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Hmm, I figured from reading ahead in Roguey's walkthrough that an M2 was more or less required for the later parts of Final Fury. So I thought that I may as well get one earlier, with the side effect of being able to deal with this particular mission.

My rank is only Instructor, but the Kha'ak tear me to pieces in one mission, using the Vidar with MAMLs and a Katana as support. I've played this mission probably 30 times. One time I actually managed to kill all the targets before being blown up just before I could jump out. All the other times, I never managed to even kill all the targets. The Kha'ak M6s hurt a lot, but it's more just the sheer volume of Kha'ak ships which seem to respawn forever.

I wasn't aware of the existence of M7s! This could actually be a solution. The reason why I wanted the Osaka is just because it seemed like a powerful M2, and if I'm going to spend so much cash on a ship I want it to definitely be powerful enough to get through the missions.

I have never used lasertowers before: maybe this can be good solution for the mission also.

And at the moment, my complexes only trade their end product. Which is probably suboptimal, come to think of it. I only have 2 complexes in Terran space which are both 25 MJ shield complexes.

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Triaxx2





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 13:10    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Option A) Forget the Osaka. It's big and ugly and not terribly effective vs. Kha'ak. Instead, look to the Paranid and get yourself a Deimos. Fit it out with Phased Shockwave Generators, and watch anything smaller than an M2 dissolve post-haste.

Option B) If you're dead set on Terran tech, grab yourself a Skirnir. It's a delightfully nasty M7M, and is more than capable of leveling the mission sectors. It can be hard to find the missiles needed for it, but at the same time, you'll only use it once or twice for this sort of mission, so you can fill it, and then probably not have to again.

Option C) Fighter drones. Keris are surprisingly nasty if you stack them up, and basic Commonwealth Drones can easily over whelm anything the Kha'ak can throw at it if you have enough. If you don't want to waste space on your M6, you can bring along a handful of TS full, and then either have them jump back out, or leave them as sacrifices.


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Ripskar





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 14:02    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

For myself it was definitely an M7 mission. You do need the flak.
Any will do so long as you keep an eye on the shields.
I used the Teladi offering with flak and a bunch of fighter drones though the Tiger was much more popular.
Osaka (and most M2s) would be overkill, and the mission wouldn't present you with a challenge.
The Terran M7 has a awful weapon selection unfortunately which would likely leave you short of flak.


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jlehtone



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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 14:26    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Osaka: big, ugly and slow. The big is no issue, for Kha'ak Kyons hit targets of all sizes. Ugliness does not unfortunately cause seizures on opponents.

Being slow is the worst feature. As long as you can outrun your enemies, you control whom you take punishment from. Osaka is potentially slower than any Kha'ak.

The PSG are an area effect weapon not to be used near friendly objects. Good for Kha'ak sector. However, PSG has relatively short range.

FLAK are very effective against fighters, but do not harm bystanders like the PSG.

PPC (Photon Pulse Cannons) outrange all other guns. As long as you can stay out of range of your enemy and still damage them, it does not matter how nasty guns they have and how weak your shield is. Trust me, I've met Kha'ak, Xenon and Terran ships and they all shared the same trait: they died. Twisted Evil

That said, the Kha'ak are numerous and the small ones will get close to you. Shielding is required. Osaka has 12GJ, but 10GJ of say (Argon) OTAS Boreas is almost as good. Boreas is faster than Osaka and can mount both PPC and FLAK.

For the record, in final FF missions I did fly Split Python that has measly 6GJ shielding and no effective anti-fighter weaponry.

Split Tiger and Pather are M7 to consider. The Tiger should mount IBL (Incendiary Bomb Launcher) on front and FLAK elsewhere, while the Panther has a bay for a serious (expendable) fighter wing. There is a catch in IBL: only the Yaki and Pirates manufacture them. You should either gain reputation to trade with them, or board ships that carry IBL's.

Boarding requires marines. It is profitable, but involves combat somewhat.


Your combat rank increases only by personal kills. The actions of your fleet do not credit your rank. A skilled admiral can be Harmless, yet leave devastation at her wake.

Combat rank and Trade rank seem to influence the rewards (race reputation and credits) of the generic missions.


Weapons and shields have rather small market. Decent profit per unit, but not many units. There is a way to sell infinite amounts, but not by regular "sell for best" methods.

Trading (buy and sell) energy, minerals, bio, food has much more volume. Those trades yield reputation and trade rank more than the 25MJ Shield sales. Furthermore, they keep the NPC stations active and existent.

The UT do those generic trades, but there is no reason not to use your Stations for the same purpose.


You are in X3TC. There is a "Xenon Hub" out there. Unlike FF, it encourages non-combat actions. Missions to "fetch a couple items". If you haven't done that yet, then start yesterday, or preferably last month. One can do all of it without building any supporting stations. In theory. In practice, put your free credits into that project.


What do you mean by "a 25MJ shield complex"?


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Dreez





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 19:49    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

My suggestion with no spoilers:

Build a large scale complex with 40+ Chip fabs in Barren Shores.
(16 Bofu L, 16Bio Gas L, 40 Chip Plants, 18 Crystal M, 13 Silicon L, 3 Solar XL, 1 Solar L)

Build a large scale complex in Ore Belt with 80 fabs.
(20 Crystal L, 20 Cahoona L, 20 Cattle L, 4 XL solar, 17 Silicon L mines)

And a major complex in Aldrin for Silicon Wafers.
(Can be supplied with E-cells by appointed 2-3 traders set to buy best)


This should keep your busy for a while, and you'll need their resources Wink .


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PowerPC603





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PostPosted: Sun, 14. May 17, 23:59    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

If you don't have one already, buy a SpringBlossom in Aldrin.
Equip it with 12 Experimental Electro-Magnetic Plasma Cannons and 2 Prototype Starburst Shockwave Cannons and 3x 200MJ shields.
This ship can deal with Khaak M6 easily and you have the benefit of a speed of 360 to outrun alot of ships when your shields are low.
It can also easily kill a Xenon Q.

It's my favorite personal ship, which I usually fly about 99% of the time.

And as said by jlehtone, save the rest of the money for those complexes to finish your Xenon Hub in some reasonable time.

You'll need these "couple of things" for that Hub:
Spoiler

400 Computer Components
500 Microchips
10.000 Energy Cells
150.000 Teladianium
450.000 Ore
500 Nividium
250.000 Crystals
400.000 Silicon Wafers
75.000 Microchips
Spoiler



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Snafu_X3





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 01:52    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

M7Ms are best for flattening an area, if suitably armed, but these are Khaak which have v good anti-missile weps

Out-ranging is possible with guns, but due to their high speed/manoeuvrability Khaak ships will overwhelm yours unless you have v good anti-ship defences (FAA is excellent; PSG almost as good vs Khaak despite its potential 'blue-on-bllue' collateral. Deimos fleet with PSG is an excellent suggestion, although it's not likely to survive vs the 4 fixed targets (plus outliers) you must destroy Sad

So, a mixed fleet. Something to protect yourself against the Khaak ships; something to deal long-range damage from a distance (hvy missiles/torps usually) for the structure destroyers; & more protection from Khaak ships against respawns..


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Last edited by Snafu_X3 on Mon, 15. May 17, 02:13; edited 2 times in total
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Snafu_X3





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 01:55    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

jlehtone wrote:
Osaka: big, ugly and slow.[..etc]
Mind if I add this to wiki?


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hisazul





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 11:06    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

I was also one of those that was at X-treme rank and nothing else to write home about when I tried FF for the very first time.

I cheesed it with a TL and A LOT of squash mines and mk1 drones. Kind of gotten fond of that concept ever since.


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Honved





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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 17:29    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Did most of OFF with an M7 Diemos, without needing repeat any of the combat missions to Kha'ak sectors. There were a couple of "reloads" with missions in "friendly" space, primarily due to weapon accidents, until I installed a different set of guns. This required basically 2 distinct "sets" of weapons for the campaign:

PSGs all around for those Kha'ak sectors, except for a couple of long-ranged forward guns in their own weapons bank to kill the stations from outside of their own return fire ranges.

Flak and/or PAC in the turrets, plus HEPT or CIG in the nose, to deal with targets in friendly space. Using the PSGs anywhere in the vicinity of "friendlies" will rapidly turn into a war crime. Remove them before entering friendly space, and install the "alternate" weapons.

The Diemos can easily clear the area around it of smaller fighters, because the PSGs have sufficient range to practically match the smaller fighter weapons, so they have to come to you, and die. A few concentrated bursts of 4-6 PSGs in the nose, while in the process of ramming, will rapidly eliminate the succession of Kha'ak frigates that attack you in the Kha'ak sectors, with surprisingly light shield damage if you can burn off enough of their shields with the PSGs before impacting at high speed with each in succession. The Diemos has shields to spare for the task, although I did manage to line up my approaches so that one frigate blocked the next one's shots at me. Then you merely have to sit back and plink the stations to death with the long-ranged guns. Unfortunately, the PSGs are also great at destroying salvage, so there's not likely to be much left to pick up afterwards.

Be sure to refit the "Friendly Sector" weapons after the mission, or else risk pissing off one or more of the other races the next time some hostile fighter strays within PSG range of your turrets.

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PostPosted: Mon, 15. May 17, 22:58    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

Honved wrote:
Be sure to refit the "Friendly Sector" weapons after the mission, or else risk pissing off one or more of the other races the next time some hostile fighter strays within PSG range of your turrets.

Furthermore, PSG is weak OOS; similar to IRE. If you set the ship to patrol (or to act as Rapid Response Unit) when you are not using it, then you want strongest damage-per-shot loadout no matter how futile it is in sector.


Snafu_X3 wrote:
Mind if I add this to wiki?

Of course you can.

However, the "big, ugly" was from Triaxx2.
Depending on viewpoint the Osaka is not really big: http://i.imgur.com/kY55v.jpg
Then again, the purple pineapples are tiny.

Ugliness tends to offend the player more than the AGI.

There is prctical ugliness though. The Tokyo. It is "bigger", but ...
The Auto Aim and turret crews use firing solutions that lead the shots to the "nearest" point on the target. That is not perfect, particularly at long range with slow rounds, but quite good. On Tokyo those "preferred points" happen to be next to nothing, due to the shape of the ship. The facial expression on the crew of enemy Tokyo when my entire alpha strike misses them by a hair is infuriating. Embarassed



There is "mobile mining". One does not need Mines on Asteroids to produce Ore and Silicon; ships can do it too. There is a setup cost, but no ECells required. Arranging delivery of collected minerals into Hub or Chip Plants is mainly CLS-scripts. Essentially fire-and-forget, except that the firing part is kind of art.


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Snafu_X3





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 00:16    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

@Jlehtone: it wasn't the ugliness comment I was thinking of, but the general tactics in the rest of the post.. tks anyway; I'll work on it & upload

[edit] Done! Please feel free to comment or change any edits I've made to your post https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence/display/X3WIKI/Capship+uses


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Triaxx2





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PostPosted: Wed, 17. May 17, 01:12    Post subject: Reply with quote Print

You can totally use Big and Ugly. Razz

Of course, I'm mostly comparing it to the other options available. Though I did have it confused with the Tokyo for pure size.

Slow is more of an issue in my book. For those without p2p jumping, getting around Kha'ak sectors is an exercise in patience. I'd prefer something with a slightly higher turn of speed. On the other hand, I also fly a lot of Split ships so most other options are very slow in comparison.


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