Kim Jong-nam

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philip_hughes
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Kim Jong-nam

Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 00:58

Hey guys. Sordid details on the brutal assassination of Kim Jong nam (kjn) are beginning to emerge. People are being arrested, accusations flying.

My problem is this; the guy was poisoned and was dead in a matter of minutes! I have to wonder what kind of poison is capable of this. Also, several suspects have been detained but so far, even though they have been allegedly handling such a lethal toxin, none of them seem to be suffering from deadness. I suspect that he may have been poisoned, but the real cause of death could have been a heart attack or stroke- a pre existing condition exasperated by the attack.

In order to satisfy myself that his death was purely a matter of poison, i need to be convinced that:

A) such a poison exists
B) it can be administered to the face and be effective
C) North Korea is capable of aquiring such a substance.
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Post by burger1 » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 01:32

Super toxic poisons exist. Some occur in nature. Some can be absorbed through the skin (non polar ones?).

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Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 04:35

They may exist. Curare for example shuts the respitory system down in seconds but it has to be administered under the skin.
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Post by burger1 » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 05:17

Dimethyl mercury will go through some protective gloves and your skin. It's used as an nmr reagent and has killed people wearing the wrong type of gloves. A drop on your skin will kill you.

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Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 06:18

Interesting. It may fail the "doesn't kill assassin" test.

*edit- checked it. Not the right compound. Too dangerous, death too slow.
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Post by burger1 » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 07:38

Fentanyl ?

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Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 13:00

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrodotoxin

Looks like this is the one.

Acts like curare. Paralysis and asphyxiation. Paralysis in 5 or so minutes, death in 10. I would NOT want to go that way.
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Post by Sorkvild » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 13:01

Probably a nerve agent of some sort, super fast absorption through mucous membranes.


Btw you can watch an interview from 2012 with Kim Jong Nam' son - Kim Han-sol. He seems really normal, although if I were him I'd worried.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_uSuCkKa3k
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Post by Usenko » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 13:25

Tetrodotoxin: The substance produced by stonefish, blue-ringed octopuses and that "poison thing that lives in a shell that spikes you when you pick it up . . ."

Come to Australia - you might accidentally get killed. :)
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Post by OmegaKnight » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 22:15

burger1 wrote:Dimethyl mercury...
I've mentioned that beauty on this forum before
(definitely something I never want to be around),
if you want something a bit faster acting
then move up the periodic table one place to;
Dimethylcadmium
it's very easily absorbed and toxic to the lungs, kidneys, liver, nervous system and the brain,
it's also carcinogenic if you survive initial exposure.

You couldn't go up again to Dimethylzinc
as that bursts into flames on contact with air.
Usenko wrote:Come to Australia - you might accidentally get killed.
hahaha I'm never moving to your continent.

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Post by RegisterMe » Sun, 19. Feb 17, 23:33

Sorkvild wrote:Probably a nerve agent of some sort, super fast absorption through mucous membranes.
I can't breathe.

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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 04:21

Well, it reads as it was an aerosol/inhalant, so it could have been a nasty cocktail. In something like that, they would have stuffed it with something that causes a "gasp" reflect or anything that induces similar response. Coughing/gasping would do it, too, to deliver whatever nastier payload was in it.

The thing is, this guy didn't appear to want anything to do with the regime in DPRK as far as "leadership" goes. He just wanted to go to Disneyland... But, I guess when KJI doesn't want someone around, they just don't get to be around anymore. Nobody else has a "known" reason to kill this guy. He could have gotten involved in something nasty, though, or someone pretty ticked off at KJI/DPRK could have targeted him.

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Post by philip_hughes » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 05:01

If he blows you away with an anti aircraft cannon for dozing during a speech, than I suspect you don't have to do much wrong. He seems to be ensuring succession, like in the good old days. That makes his son a target too.
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Post by korio » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 09:32

I saw this morning in the news that a woman tried to choke him with a towel for a couple of seconds in the airport, then run away.

She said after to the police that she thought it was a tv hidden camera prank....

So probably is some kind of aerosol agent that is absorbed through the lungs or mucous membranes and inocuous on the skin.

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Post by philip_hughes » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 10:36

Yeah- the choke to make him inhale deeply.
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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 12:50

I think people are overthinking this, no super rare hyper toxic agents are needed. A large enough dose of almost any inhalation anaesthetic agent would easily do the job.
Before the importance of things like precise dosing were known the odds of being killed by your surgeon using chloroform as an anaesthetic were extremely high. . . . to the point that the anaesthetic was more dangerous than the surgery.

In this case, soak a rag to dripping with chloroform, hold over mouth / nose for 30-60s = one dead victim. Of course stronger agents than chloroform are available these days.
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Post by Usenko » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 12:59

Bishop149 wrote:I think people are overthinking this, no super rare hyper toxic agents are needed. A large enough dose of almost any inhalation anaesthetic agent would easily do the job.
Before the importance of things like precise dosing were known the odds of being killed by your surgeon using chloroform as an anaesthetic were extremely high. . . . to the point that the anaesthetic was more dangerous than the surgery.

In this case, soak a rag to dripping with chloroform, hold over mouth / nose for 30-60s = one dead victim. Of course stronger agents than chloroform are available these days.
The thing is, we've seen CCTV footage, which showed that he wasn't being held for that long - the attacker jumped on his back, wiped his face and then walked away. Whatever it was was incredibly quick.
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 13:25

Usenko wrote:The thing is, we've seen CCTV footage, which showed that he wasn't being held for that long - the attacker jumped on his back, wiped his face and then walked away. Whatever it was was incredibly quick.
Ah, very odd method of delivering and inhalation agent that, there's nowt I know off would kill within a minute from that kind of exposure. A skin absorbed toxin perhaps, but the official line is an inhalation agent?
If it was an inhalant it would have to have been a HUGE dose. To the point it would have been very dangerous both for the assassin and anyone within 6 feet or so.
In the case of a skin absorbed toxin most likely I guess would be a concentrated nerve agent but even those wouldn't kill instantly. . . . there would be at least a few minutes of ummm . . extreme unpleasantness before death. Most of things that are super super fast need to be drunk or injected.

This kind stuff actually used to be my job. . . . . well developing the methods of detecting such things anyway.
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Post by Usenko » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 14:02

Bishop149 wrote:
Ah, very odd method of delivering and inhalation agent that, there's nowt I know off would kill within a minute from that kind of exposure. A skin absorbed toxin perhaps, but the official line is an inhalation agent?
If it was an inhalant it would have to have been a HUGE dose. To the point it would have been very dangerous both for the assassin and anyone within 6 feet or so.
In the case of a skin absorbed toxin most likely I guess would be a concentrated nerve agent but even those wouldn't kill instantly. . . . there would be at least a few minutes of ummm . . extreme unpleasantness before death. Most of things that are super super fast need to be drunk or injected.

This kind stuff actually used to be my job. . . . . well developing the methods of detecting such things anyway.
What you say seems consistent - the video footage shows him going up to people and pointing awkwardly at his face, stumbling a little; perhaps asking for help when being in severe pain? That would be what you'd expect with the concentrated nerve agent.
Morkonan wrote:What really happened isn't as exciting. Putin flexed his left thigh during his morning ride on a flying bear, right after beating fifty Judo blackbelts, which he does upon rising every morning. (Not that Putin sleeps, it's just that he doesn't want to make others feel inadequate.)

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Post by philip_hughes » Mon, 20. Feb 17, 14:15

Yeah. I still am wondering if he suffered an unrelated heart attack at the same time.
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